Have you heard Racist/Sexist/Homophobic Abuse a Football Match?

[Stadt]

31 minutes ago, ScouseFox said:

for me it’d be when the “descriptive” word is the offensive part of the comment. if he called him a stupid little frog then fair play that might offend some french people. if you called someone welsh a sheep shagger, might get offended. simply calling him french isn’t really that offensive. 

 

all just personal opinion though i guess. that’s just how i’d view it. if someone called me a scouse c unt (happens a lot, surprisingly) id be more focussed on being a c unt. if someone listed a load of scouse stereotypes then i’d say it’s them being the cu nt. 

Based on that logic though John Terry calling Anton Ferdinand a 'black c unt' isn't offensive because it's descriptive

[ScouseFox]

9 minutes ago, Stadt said:

Based on that logic though John Terry calling Anton Ferdinand a 'black c unt' isn't offensive because it's descriptive

but “black” has been pretty offensive for decades, bit different 

[Leeds Fox]

Having read it on here a few times... is calling someone a ‘fairy’ or such for bottling a challenge/header offensive? When I say offensive, I mean in regards to any particular group. 

 

I could see why people might assume it is, but I’d say that is someone linking a group to something that isn’t necessarily meant in a context that is linked to one. Rather, it is actually just being linked to a particular object. 

 

Fairy could be replaced by Pansy and have the same effect on the phrase and likewise in an offensive way to someone. When in reality it’s just a flower that would be easily broken under light force. 

 

I’m not trying to defend any kind of abuse because racism, homophobia etc are deplorable and have no place in society but the aforementioned really is being over-sensitive (for me), unless it’s being used to disguise malice. 

[Xen]

7 hours ago, Leeds Fox said:

Having read it on here a few times... is calling someone a ‘fairy’ or such for bottling a challenge/header offensive? When I say offensive, I mean in regards to any particular group. 

 

I could see why people might assume it is, but I’d say that is someone linking a group to something that isn’t necessarily meant in a context that is linked to one. Rather, it is actually just being linked to a particular object. 

 

Fairy could be replaced by Pansy and have the same effect on the phrase and likewise in an offensive way to someone. When in reality it’s just a flower that would be easily broken under light force. 

 

I’m not trying to defend any kind of abuse because racism, homophobia etc are deplorable and have no place in society but the aforementioned really is being over-sensitive (for me), unless it’s being used to disguise malice. 

Absolutely, yes. The dictionary definition of the word might be one thing (pixie, flower respectively) but those words have been used to describe gay men in a derogatory way for so long that any use of the word in that sort of context carries homophobic connotations.

 

Of course it's not always being used in a direct homophobic 'attack' (for want of a better word), but by saying it's OK in some cases that only serves to blur the lines and normalise it for when it is used maliciously. For the most obvious example, look at the use of the word 'gay' to mean a negative. Obviously its not being used to be abusive, but you'd still reprimand kids for saying it as it encourages those negative associations. Going back further you could say the same for the 'n' word and racism.

 

It's not like there aren't countless other words you could use to say the exact same sentiment re: bottlers. 

[Leeds Fox]

50 minutes ago, Xen said:

Absolutely, yes. The dictionary definition of the word might be one thing (pixie, flower respectively) but those words have been used to describe gay men in a derogatory way for so long that any use of the word in that sort of context carries homophobic connotations.

 

Of course it's not always being used in a direct homophobic 'attack' (for want of a better word), but by saying it's OK in some cases that only serves to blur the lines and normalise it for when it is used maliciously. For the most obvious example, look at the use of the word 'gay' to mean a negative. Obviously its not being used to be abusive, but you'd still reprimand kids for saying it as it encourages those negative associations. Going back further you could say the same for the 'n' word and racism.

 

It's not like there aren't countless other words you could use to say the exact same sentiment re: bottlers. 

 

I didn’t want to jump on this thread and cause offence or seem ignorant, and hope I haven’t.

 

I’d just seen the words used previously in this thread and it did get me thinking. I wouldn’t be one to sit in the crowd and call one of the players a ‘fairy’ for a poor attempt at a challenge (I’d probably be p!ssed off that a professional footballer can’t tackle but that’s by the by). 

 

What I did think however was, that if I was to have used that word, it would be meant in the very context it was said. I’m not going to quote the dictionary definition but to me a fairy would be a small, delicate, unharmful and well natured creature. None of those words I would, even subconsciously use to describe a homosexual (because I take people for what they are, not stereotyping them). 

 

I understand and completely agree with you saying people hiding behind a words true meaning in a way to use it offensively is wrong. Sometimes words are used exactly how they were designed to be. Using the word Gay as a negative is completely wrong and that wasn’t part of my point. 

 

My original post was mostly an example of how society is at present. People are so quick to be offended that innocent (and I don’t mean ignorant) uses of words are pulled up. I’m not naive enough to think that there aren’t a lot of folk out there who either are full of hate or are too ignorant to understand the effects of what they’re saying. 

 

It’s getting to a generation where the stereotypical words that belong back in the 70/80s have now lost those meanings to the newer generations and are being said far more literally than previously. Many people will use words that have no links to their previous adapted meaning, not because it’s normalised but because the previous meaning was linked to a derogatory perception of certain groups. 

 

I don’t see people of the LGBT community as having a resemblance to fairies, quite the opposite as the group clearly have some extremely strong characters (and it’s revolutionising how the group is becoming widely accepted, which is great). Also I don’t see James Maddison (or anyone else) as ‘gay’ because he bottles 50/50 challenge. 

 

Anyway, apologies for the long winded reply and ‘fairy’ was just an example used as I’d seen it a few times in the thread. Obviously I can only speak for myself on this. 

[Xen]

44 minutes ago, Leeds Fox said:

 

I didn’t want to jump on this thread and cause offence or seem ignorant, and hope I haven’t.

Appreciate that, I tried not to be too harsh in my reply as I know I've had a tendency of overstepping the mark in responses for this kind of issue. I'm a lot more moderate (and frankly apathetic) about this whole thing than I can sometimes come across as

 

Quote

My original post was mostly an example of how society is at present. People are so quick to be offended that innocent (and I don’t mean ignorant) uses of words are pulled up. I’m not naive enough to think that there aren’t a lot of folk out there who either are full of hate or are too ignorant to understand the effects of what they’re saying.  

It's an issue with the system, unfortunately, rather than any individual. Of course there are plenty of folk who are too sensitive (and I'm trying really hard not to slip into that 'SJW'-type mindset), but at the same time there are still countless instances where these things are meant maliciously, and it's so difficult to differentiate between what is and isn't intended as abuse (and, for some people, dangerous if they assume intent wrongly) that its far easier to just err on the side of caution and not use those words if there's any clear connotations like that within society. It's very much a tug of war between the 'two sides' where one group is saying that "if it's not that big of a deal, why don't you just stop using it" and the other is saying "if its not that big of a deal, why do you care that I do?", and no-one is 'winning' anytime soon.

Edited 23 October 2019 by Xen

[Finnegan]

Regards whether or not a descriptor is offensive:

 

1. Are you deliberately using it as a slur? 

 

(You fat bastard, you black cvnt, etc)

 

If so, that's pretty actively, consciously offensive and fairly easy to spot. Don't exactly think that needs clarifying. 

 

2. Is it relevant? 

 

If you're talking to someone about another person and you're describing them as "a black guy" (for example) because there's a black guy and a white guy standing next to each other and you're trying to distinguish them? I mean, no, not offensive. 

 

If you're telling a story about how a bloke, I dunno, cut in front of you in a queue or was tailgating you on the M69 and you throw in the fact he was black for no obvious reason then, yeah, you're being pretty offensive. You quite obviously either subconsciously see relevance yourself or you're trying to imply it without saying it explicitly. 

 

[ScouseFox]

welsh twat 

[filbertway]

13 hours ago, ScouseFox said:

but “black” has been pretty offensive for decades, bit different 

Has it?! 

 

[ScouseFox]

1 minute ago, filbertway said:

Has it?! 

 

in the context i quoted, yeah. 

[filbertway]

4 minutes ago, ScouseFox said:

in the context i quoted, yeah. 

Right, gonna have to think of something else to shout the dog when I'm walking it

[ScouseFox]

6 minutes ago, filbertway said:

Right, gonna have to think of something else to shout the dog when I'm walking it

i mean i definitely wouldn't be walking round the park shouting "oi you bla ck cu nt", but each to their own 

[Tommy G]

A guy near me at the spurs game when sissoko did that clattering challenge shouted ''you ****ing black'' and then stopped himself, presume the word afterwards was going to be bastard etc.

 

Shocking but he was behind me and had no idea who it was 

[Izzy]

5 hours ago, Xen said:

Absolutely, yes. The dictionary definition of the word might be one thing (pixie, flower respectively) but those words have been used to describe gay men in a derogatory way for so long that any use of the word in that sort of context carries homophobic connotations.

 

Of course it's not always being used in a direct homophobic 'attack' (for want of a better word), but by saying it's OK in some cases that only serves to blur the lines and normalise it for when it is used maliciously. For the most obvious example, look at the use of the word 'gay' to mean a negative. Obviously its not being used to be abusive, but you'd still reprimand kids for saying it as it encourages those negative associations. Going back further you could say the same for the 'n' word and racism.

 

It's not like there aren't countless other words you could use to say the exact same sentiment re: bottlers. 

What’s really sad is that I’ve heard U11 coaches giving team talks to their lads at full time calling them ‘fairies’ and saying they’re playing like a ‘bunch of ballerinas’.

 

When it’s happening at grass roots level at that age it’s no wonder we’ve got a problem.

[Leeds Fox]

4 hours ago, Xen said:

Appreciate that, I tried not to be too harsh in my reply as I know I've had a tendency of overstepping the mark in responses for this kind of issue. I'm a lot more moderate (and frankly apathetic) about this whole thing than I can sometimes come across as

 

It's an issue with the system, unfortunately, rather than any individual. Of course there are plenty of folk who are too sensitive (and I'm trying really hard not to slip into that 'SJW'-type mindset), but at the same time there are still countless instances where these things are meant maliciously, and it's so difficult to differentiate between what is and isn't intended as abuse (and, for some people, dangerous if they assume intent wrongly) that its far easier to just err on the side of caution and not use those words if there's any clear connotations like that within society. It's very much a tug of war between the 'two sides' where one group is saying that "if it's not that big of a deal, why don't you just stop using it" and the other is saying "if its not that big of a deal, why do you care that I do?", and no-one is 'winning' anytime soon.

 

I appreciate what you’re saying, your initial response wasn’t overstepping the mark by any means. 

 

There will be no winners in a debate like this, or the situations that the debate is on. 

 

I am always mindful of what I say (I’d never be insulting to a persons race/religion/way of life) but I still do try and stay aware of my audience and avoid the grey areas too. 

 

I’m sure you can agree that on a subject like this, defending your own opinion can make you appear even more ignorant to the offended party. So again, no winners! It’s the people on the extreme scales of these subjects that blow the situation out of proportion. As I’m sure if I said something mildly offensive in earshot of someone who thought it was out of order, a quick ‘come on mate, you can’t say that’ and a reply of ‘ah sorry, I didn’t realise it was offensive’ is a scenario that plays out daily. 

 

The offended there have acted sensibly enough to educate someone who would hopefully be mature enough to have learnt a valuable lesson.

[Costock_Fox]

Went to Man City V Atalanta in the city end but right next to the away fans and it all kicked off a few times after alledged monkey chants from their end.

 

Bloke pointed to culprit out to police and nothing was done, possibly more due to the fact the police didn’t want to get battered which begs the question why they have to stand there unarmed when the Spanish police go full robo cop just for singing non offensive songs.

[Stadt]

15 minutes ago, Costock_Fox said:

Went to Man City V Atalanta in the city end but right next to the away fans and it all kicked off a few times after alledged monkey chants from their end.

 

Bloke pointed to culprit out to police and nothing was done, possibly more due to the fact the police didn’t want to get battered which begs the question why they have to stand there unarmed when the Spanish police go full robo cop just for singing non offensive songs.

Footballing policing on this country love soft targets

[srbfox]

Heard nothing racist at at FS or KP but then I leave early to beat the traffic and have stopped going since Puel left. 

[Dr The Singh]

I was at a under 14 cup match, it was 2 teams of the same parent club.  O e of the sides was of a.lower division.  Both sides had kids from my sons school, however the opposition team had a kid from India playing for them, he looked like a stereotypical Indian with a very strong accent.  

 

Considering my son wears a turban, what shocked me that the indian kids own team mates were calling him 'gandhi', the coach was shouting at his players to stop it, and apologised to all.  I spoke to the father who was very disturbed and said I would help him report this.  It was disgusting behaviour.....,..

 

 

[Jattdogg]

5 hours ago, Dr The Singh said:

I was at a under 14 cup match, it was 2 teams of the same parent club.  O e of the sides was of a.lower division.  Both sides had kids from my sons school, however the opposition team had a kid from India playing for them, he looked like a stereotypical Indian with a very strong accent.  

 

Considering my son wears a turban, what shocked me that the indian kids own team mates were calling him 'gandhi', the coach was shouting at his players to stop it, and apologised to all.  I spoke to the father who was very disturbed and said I would help him report this.  It was disgusting behaviour.....,..

 

 

That is shocking. Where the coach got it wrong  was he didn't pull the team off the field and made the culprits apologize in front of everyone or else they wont play again. Start holding people accountable. They dont understand how this stuff can effect minorities. You grow a thick skin to it and it becomes one of those "I'm not suprised" or " wait for it I'm sure they will make a racist comment about me soon" things. 

 

 

[Rusko187]

On 22/10/2019 at 14:08, urban.spaceman said:

I genuinely can't remember ever hearing any racism in 25 years of attending football matches; though as a white person these sorts of things are never really directed at me and as such my ears aren't so finely tuned to pick this stuff up and commit it to memory. (I also have slight hearing problems too so individual voices in large crowds tend not to stand out).

 

Controversial question: Is racism more prevalent now than it ever was, or are we now finally giving it the attention required to give it in order to stamp it out?

 

For example, we're the 4th highest for racist arrests between 2014 and 2018 with 14 according to the Home Office.

 

Does that mean that we have the 4th most racist fans?
 

Or does that mean that our fans are more likely than others to report racists to the police, and that our police are doing a better job than others?

 

 

I often wonder that whilst it's more prevalent in the media, is it that we're actually seeing an improvement? There is more of a public condemnation of anything remotely racist, and rightly so! 

 

I was watching a box set of The Young Ones recently and in a few of the episodes, they use words that are extremely racist. Not for a moment suggesting they're racist people, but more when that aired on television that was the public opinion, that these words were "okay" to be said and aired... and on BBC of all places?! 

Yes, I still here racist words at the football... but it's not every game, I am however a white, thirty something male... I'm the last person anyone should be asking "do we have a racism issue?", maybe I just don't hear it, but it's challenged when it is heard.

 

I think because it appears more, and arrests are made, in my opinion it suggests to me that we're tackling the problem, and not trying to bury the truth.