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Guest MattP

FT General Election Poll 2019

FT General Election 2019  

501 members have voted

  1. 1. Which party will be getting your vote?

    • Conservative
      155
    • Labour
      188
    • Liberal Democrats
      93
    • Brexit Party
      17
    • Green Party
      26
    • Other
      22


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14 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

Man, Fridgegate is just too much. lol

 

So things he's scared of:

 

- Andrew Neil interview

- Piers Morgan interview

- Jeremy Vine interview

- Phone images of kids being treated on NHS floors

- Questions about how many kids he has


Things he's not scared of:

- Being locked in a fridge

 

Alexander de Pfeffel has to be the biggest coward of a politician we've ever seen. I can't remember anybody in a position of power just outright refusing to be scrutinised in the way he has throughout this campaign.

 

Is it because his people know he's barely able to string a sentence together and is likely to put his foot in it at a crucial time? Probably. The cynic in me wonders whether they're orchestrated carefully as distraction techniques: If we're concentrated on what he hasn't said, then we're not talking about what he has.

 

And yet he's going to achieve a majority (or very close to).

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7 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

This is all going to become much worse once he's got his majority. The man is simply used to getting whatever he wants and will do and say anything to get it. The way the Tories have carried on with the way they've hidden from scrutiny and actively put out disinformation has been alarming. Make no mistake - this campaign is the rehearsal for what they hope to get away with if they have the numbers. We can't say we weren't warned...

And the problem is the alternative is a government of shadow ministers who venerate over Mao and Marx.

 

Whatever happens I don't think our democracy is going to be in a great state on Friday, but at least it might have kept the record of its government implementing the votes it gave it's people. 

 

If it doesn't, you've also been warned. 

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27 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

 

 

 

 

For future reference, this is the level of polical ****ery I want on the final day. I mean seriously, just wtf is that. Makes Boris's bulldozer look brilliant. lol

Ummm....the folks who put this together do realise what happens about thirty seconds after this in the movie, right?

 

Wtf indeed.

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4 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

And yet he's going to achieve a majority (or very close to).

Well, then that lends a lot of credence to the theory that on the whole, populaces are credulous, self-destructive idiots and that humanity is ultimately fvcked. :ph34r:

 

 

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1 hour ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Both Cons and Labour have actively put out false information all throughout this election.

The Tory strategy in this election has taken things to the next level compares to the usual eyerolling "pinch of salt" stuff we (sadly) expect during campaigns from political parties:

 

- The party's press office masquerading as an independent fact-checker during a live TV debate

- Doctoring footage to make Starmer look like he hadn't a clue about Brexit, when in fact he'd given a detailed answer

- Telling outright lies about alleged assaults to senior national journalists (who, yes, should have been doing their jobs much fvcking better before reporting those lies)

- Being found to have made misleading claims in 88% of paid-for Facebook ads (by comparison, 0% of Labour's were found to have contained such claims)

- Hiding from an interview with arguably the most forensic journalist in the country at present

- Abandoning a speech because five protesters turned up

- Hiding from journalists in a fvcking fridge

 

And that's before we even get into stuff like the spurious prorogation of parliament before the election.

 

1 hour ago, MattP said:

And the problem is the alternative is a government of shadow ministers who venerate over Mao and Marx.

 

Whatever happens I don't think our democracy is going to be in a great state on Friday, but at least it might have kept the record of its government implementing the votes it gave it's people. 

 

If it doesn't, you've also been warned. 

About what exactly? If by some miracle Corbyn gets a majority, there are enough MPs in his own ranks who'd stop him from turning us into the third-rate Banana Republic you're convinced he wants us to become. If he doesn't, MPs in other parties will.

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6 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

The Tory strategy in this election has taken things to the next level compares to the usual eyerolling "pinch of salt" stuff we (sadly) expect during campaigns from political parties:

 

- The party's press office masquerading as an independent fact-checker during a live TV debate

- Doctoring footage to make Starmer look like he hadn't a clue about Brexit, when in fact he'd given a detailed answer

- Telling outright lies about alleged assaults to senior national journalists (who, yes, should have been doing their jobs much fvcking better before reporting those lies)

- Being found to have made misleading claims in 88% of paid-for Facebook ads (by comparison, 0% of Labour's were found to have contained such claims)

- Hiding from an interview with arguably the most forensic journalist in the country at present

- Abandoning a speech because five protesters turned up

- Hiding from journalists in a fvcking fridge

 

And that's before we even get into stuff like the spurious prorogation of parliament before the election.

 

About what exactly? If by some miracle Corbyn gets a majority, there are enough MPs in his own ranks who'd stop him from turning us into the third-rate Banana Republic you're convinced he wants us to become. If he doesn't, MPs in other parties will.

And I could sit here and write exactly the same about Labour? They've told people with cancer they will have to pay for treatment, they've told people with diabetes that they will have to pay for their medicine, they've said the NHS will be sold. They must be forgetting the Labour party of old was the first one so sell off NHS buildings for quick cash.

 

Why can't some Labour voters just admit the party is in the toilet just as much as the Tory one is? The state of politics at the moment is horrendous. Again I'll go back to my original point some posts ago, if the Conservatives are doing all this shit and still obtaining a majority (or close to), then what the hell does that say about the current Labour party and Lib Dems.

Edited by Leicester_Loyal
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5 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

 

 

About what exactly? If by some miracle Corbyn gets a majority, there are enough MPs in his own ranks who'd stop him from turning us into the third-rate Banana Republic you're convinced he wants us to become. If he doesn't, MPs in other parties will.

Not to speak for him with authority,  but i think Matt is referring solely to Brexit here.

 

Apparently that issue is one that stands rather apart from others where if implementation of a vote doesn't take place, political violence is justifi- sorry, "regrettable and terrible but was going to be an inevitability and therefore understandable". Or something like that.

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1 hour ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

And I could sit here and write exactly the same about Labour? They've told people with cancer they will have to pay for treatment, they've told people with diabetes that they will have to pay for their medicine, they've said the NHS will be sold. They must be forgetting the Labour party of old was the first one so sell off NHS buildings for quick cash.

 

Why can't some Labour voters just admit the party is in the toilet just as much as the Tory one is? The state of politics at the moment is horrendous. Again I'll go back to my original point some posts ago, if the Conservatives are doing all this shit and still obtaining a majority (or close to), then what the hell does that say about the current Labour party and Lib Dems.

You couldn't though, could you? Making predictions about life under a Johnson government (Johnson's made some equally eyerolling predictions about possible life under Labour) isn't the same as actively pumping out disinformation about what's actually happening at the moment in the way the Tories have done this campaign. If Labour had employed the same tactics of actively promoting disinformation and avoiding scrutiny during this campaign, I'd be criticising them just as heavily.

 

But then again it seems to be working for them. We've got people bending over backwards to try and dispute the veracity of a news story about a sick child on the floor of a hospital to the extent they'll spread a false social media post published by multiple dodgy accounts claiming it's bollocks - just because it helps the Tories if it's not true. The fact the editor of the traditionally Tory-supporting Yorkshire Post has had to come out and defend the initial story should say it all to Tory supporters about the fact their party has gone too far promoting this kind of shit.

 

And I don't know why you think I'm defending the state of the Labour Party at the moment. I'm not. By rights, they should be wiping the floor with the Tories after everything that's happened in the past nine years.

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https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/labour-leicester-east-councillors-accuse-3632626

 

Labour Leicester East councillors accuse Jeremy Corbyn of being 'anti-Indian' and anti-Hindu'


ByDan MartinPolitics Reporter
15:43, 11 DEC 2019UPDATED15:45, 11 DEC 2019
NEWS

Labour councillors Ratilal Govind, Rashmi Joshi and Nita Solanki all signed the letter to Jeremy Corbyn

A group of Labour councillors in Leicester East have written to Jeremy Corbyn on the eve of the General Election saying the party has treated the British Hindu Community with ‘disdain and disrespect’.

Six Leicester city councillors dispatched the letter to the leader today.

It says they want to express their ‘deep and overwhelming anger about the direction the Labour Party is moving in in respect of the Hindu community’ with many people now seeing it as anti-Indian.

Evington councillor Ratilal Govind, North Evington councillor Rashmi Joshi and Belgrave member Nita Solanki have all confirmed themselves as signatories. LeicestershireLive is attempting to speak to the other three.

In the letter, the councillors have said the Labour should not have debated and discussed a motion on Kashmir, a territory disputed by India and Pakistan, at its conference earlier this year.

Labour Leicester East candidate Claudia Webbe, who is standing in the seat against Tara Baldwin (Brexit Party), Bhupen Dave (Conservative), Nitesh Dave (Liberal Democrat), Sanjay Gogia (Independent) and Melanie Wakley (Green), chaired the conference session in question.

The letter goes on to claim the party has a ‘pro-active policy of keeping British Hindu candidates out of parliamentary seats including Leicester East'.


The councillors say their constituents have been urging them to quit Labour and they add: “We are currently considering whether we can any longer remain in the Labour Party that has become both anti-Hindu and anti-Indian.”

Ms Webbe and the Labour Party have been contacted for comment.

The timing of the letter is likely to infuriate many Labour activists but councillor Joshi, a long-time Labour member said: “This is not a new issue. It has been a problem since August.


“We have raised it within the party at a regional level that the party should not be interfering with another sovereign country.

“At surgeries and when we go door knocking people raise it again and again.

“They say this is a matter for India and Pakistan to resolve and the Labour Party should not be meddling.

“Labour should be focusing on issues like education and the NHS and Brexit.

“I think Jeremy has said sorry but for many people it’s too little too late.”


Jeremy Corbyn addressing a crowd of hundreds at College Green in Bristol on Monday (December 9) (Image: Michael Lloyd/Bristol Live)
When asked about the timing of the letter with polls set to open in Leicester East on Thursday, Coun Joshi said: “It’s not a new issue but we have done this because the party has not listened.

“I will be voting Labour.”

Coun Govind said: “We have made this bold move because the party does not listen. It’s up to individuals how they vote. I’m still a Labour member and will be voting Labour.’

Coun Solanki also said constituents were angry about the issues raised in the letter.

She said: “The community feel Labour has to look at the bigger picture. I have always been a loyal Labour member but I want to make sure people’s voices are heard.”


Ms Webbe has previously said she was concerned about a a group called the Overseas BJP – supporters of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi - involving themselves in local debate.

When asked about circulating Whatsapp messages saying Labour is anti-Indian, Ms Webbe said: “It’s not true.

"At some point we will have to come back to this issue of Kashmir because clearly it divides India and Pakistan overseas, but what we have to make sure of in Leicester is that what is happening internationally is not impacting locally.

"The unity between Hindus and Muslims needs to be retained.

"But the reality is that, as much as there is noise around India about Labour, there has equally been circulated lots of images and videos about people’s treatment in Pakistan.

"The allegation is by the authorities and the police force (there).

"There have been images of physical attacks, circulated here in Leicester, on both sides.”

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13 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I don't buy the idea that human behaviour has to be fixed and predictable, even over a large sample size over a large period of time, even if it may appear that there are patterns that repeat - it goes against everything I believe concerning free will. But I understand the need to defend what you study and what you do in economics (and by extension human behaviour) as a hard science.

I am 100% certain that I am correct to say that you obsess about the perception of economics as a hard science more than any economist has in the last 30 years. I happily slate it for its ridiculous shoehorning mathematical representations that have made so much of it a nonsense but I also have no skin in the game, beyond a decent casual interest its served its purpose in my life. But it works well as an empirical discipline, particularly when it interacts with other social sciences hence the two subsets that are in vogue are Behavioural Econ and Development Econ. I mean pretty much every UK university bar one is moving away, at least partially, from a quant focus as are many in the US. But tbf, if I wanted to ignore findings I would play the man rather than the ball.

 

Human behaviour is of course malleable, subject to evolution, and a function of framing and environment. That doesn't mean it can be anything. I mean let's take your point about Venezuela

14 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I'm interested in it because evolutionary scientific data implies that is the best and longest way for humanity and human civilisation to survive

And what is the purpose? Sorry to be nihilist but exactly what is the purpose of preserving a species?

 

14 hours ago, leicsmac said:

...well, I think we have a pretty fundamental disagreement on what we believe humans are capable of, then. You seem to use the history of human behaviour as a strict guide for the future (the fact that humans did establish pretty good communal structures before agriculture notwithstanding), which is rather darkly amusing considering how subjective a science sociology really is. If we were discussing, say, observational methods of distant stars using "standard candles" to figure out how far away they are then I might be onboard with using such data the next time I look at distant stars because that is an example of data analysis that isn't subjective.

No not as a strict guide. Just that the future is a function of the past and that humans are not some super species that break through the barriers mother nature puts on it over a short enough period of time. 

 

To me you have this idea that humans are a computer that can be programmed to what you deem to be optimal,I have the idea that isn't possible in a world of multiple billions of people. That you and I don't share the same vision is exactly the issue with your ideal.

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7 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

What's this I'm seeing about Laura Kuensberg giving out the results of postal votes. (And how does she know the results to begin with). Surely this is a criminal offence?

How could she possibly know? Surely they wouldn't haven't been opened yet?

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1 hour ago, Voll Blau said:

If by some miracle Corbyn gets a majority, there are enough MPs in his own ranks who'd stop him from turning us into the third-rate Banana Republic you're convinced he wants us to become. If he doesn't, MPs in other parties will.

Because they have been so successful on moderating him so far.

 

If it's a Labour-SNP coalition then I think he can do whatever he wants, his own mps can't really oppose the manifesto they stood on and the Scots will be delighted to cause chaos for the UK to achieve their eventual goal.

 

50 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Apparently that issue is one that stands rather apart from others where if implementation of a vote doesn't take place, political violence is justifi- sorry, "regrettable and terrible but was going to be an inevitability and therefore understandable". Or something like that.

I think is some is inevitable, although it doesn't make it right.

 

We both agree resorting to civil disobedience because you can't get what you want is wrong don't we?:ph34r:

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10 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

What's this I'm seeing about Laura Kuensberg giving out the results of postal votes. (And how does she know the results to begin with). Surely this is a criminal offence?

She's not really revealed much, she said along the lines of "postal votes are in, neither party are meant to look at them but they both have" and then said that  quote "on both side people are telling me that the postal votes that are in are looking pretty grim for Labour". 

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Speculating about postal votes is now illegal? If Labour sources say they are looking pretty grim I think she's allowed to report it.

 

Some of these Labour activists are losing the plot when it comes to her.

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2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Speculating about postal votes is now illegal? If Labour sources say they are looking pretty grim I think she's allowed to report it.

 

Some of these Labour activists are losing the plot when it comes to her.

Yeah the way that people have overreacted (shock), you'd think she's got list and read everyone's names and addresses out and how they voted :rolleyes:

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