Tactics Talk:

[squarez]

Absolutely sensational Posting.

 

For someone who wants to learn more about improving their own tactical analysis where is the best place to start? I love reading and watching stuff like this but I've never been able to read it on the pitch myself. Any advice?

[StriderHiryu]

4 hours ago, squarez said:

Absolutely sensational Posting.

 

For someone who wants to learn more about improving their own tactical analysis where is the best place to start? I love reading and watching stuff like this but I've never been able to read it on the pitch myself. Any advice?

Thanks!

 

Regarding reading this on the pitch - that’s a great question. Actually I personally find it a lot easier at a game instead of on TV as you can see the shape used when teams are off the ball. For me the trickiest thing is watching the game versus reading the play. Football is a massively emotional game and we watch it for entertainment, thus it’s really easy just to follow the ball and get caught up with the drama. It actually takes quite some discipline to try and take a middle ground and see the play as well as enjoying the match. As an example a lot of people are spaffing over Heung Min Song’s goal for Spurs and whilst it was an awesome goal, if you literally stop the tape at any part of the goal you need to ask what Burnley’s defenders were doing.

 

If you can find another person that has a good understanding of the game it also helps. I love to see games with people that can pick up on things I can’t and one reason I’m a big fan of FoxesTalk is that we have lots of excellent posters who are good at this. Less useful when you’re at the game though as the reception you get on your phone is shocking at the KP. But going with someone else with a keen eye definitely helps. 

 

Lastly, just ask questions. I make these posts but I can easily make a mistake. So seeing other people discuss it is always good. I have to say when Darren Fletcher analysed the game at the weekend it made me happy as he pretty much summarised this post, so it was nice to know I wasn’t talking out of my arse!

 

 

Edited 11 December 2019 by StriderHiryu

[FoxFossil]

28 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Thanks!

 

Regarding reading this on the pitch - that’s a great question. Actually I personally find it a lot easier at a game instead of on TV as you can see the shape used when teams are off the ball. For me the trickiest thing is watching the game versus reading the play. Football is a massively emotional game and we watch it for entertainment, thus it’s really easy just to follow the ball and get caught up with the drama. It actually takes quite some discipline to try and take a middle ground and see the play as well as enjoying the match! As an example a lot of people are spaffing over Heung Min Song’s goal for Spurs and whilst it was an awesome goal of you literally stop the tape at any part of the goal you need to ask what Burnley’s defenders were doing! 

 

If you can find another person that has a good understanding of the game it also helps. I love to see games with people that can pick up on things I can’t and one reason I’m a big fan of FoxesTalk is that we have lots of excellent posters who are good at this. Less useful when you’re at the game though as the reception you get on your phone is shocking at the KP. But going with someone else with a keen eye definitely helps. 

 

Lastly, just ask questions. I make these posts but I can easily make a mistake. So seeing other people discuss it is always good. I have to say when Darren Fletcher analysed the game at the weekend it made me happy as he pretty much summarised this post, so it was nice to know I wasn’t talking out of my arse!

Brilliant stuff Strider.

For some of us still grappling with the complexity of the offside rule, this is a real education and adds an extra dimension to watching Rogers CIty.

Thank you.

So tell me again how are we going to beat Liverpool?

Edited 11 December 2019 by FoxFossil

[Billy Big Balls]

3 minutes ago, FoxFossil said:

Brilliant stuff Strider.

For some of us still grappling with the complexity of the offside rule, this is a real education and adds an extra dimension to watching Rogers CIty.

Thank you.

So tell me again how are we going to beat Liverpool?

I know I wasn't asked but I watched the Rafa Benitez video on Sky about how to beat Liverpool... 

 

A couple of key points that he makes could suit us:

1. He says quick defenders that can match Liverpools attackers are important so that you can defend at "three quarters" rather than on the 18 yard box. You don't want to get pinned all the way back so that you've got no space to play out when you win the ball and the long pass option is off because you're too far away from the dangerous areas in the channels. Soyuncu, Pereira and Chilwell all fit the profile of quick defenders that can match their pace upfront and Evans' superb reading of the game adds an extra couple of yards since he always has a head start. 

 

2. He says the best way to get at them and beat the press is long-balls into the channels. Their fullbacks push very high, usually at the same time which leaves Van Dijk and Matip/Lovren at the back with Fabinho shielding them. They obviously expect this and are good at dealing with it BUT Vardy is one of the best in the world at chasing long balls and forcing mistakes. Plus our defenders are better on the ball than most teams Liverpool will play against and that sounds like a threatening combination to me! 

Even if Vardy can just force a throw in in their half, it relieves the pressure and puts us in a position where we can play our game and pin THEM in.

 

It's going to be a tough game but it's winnable! Teams that we've blown away this season have given Liverpool problems. If anyone can beat them, it's us! 

[FoxFossil]

16 minutes ago, Billy Big Balls said:

I know I wasn't asked but I watched the Rafa Benitez video on Sky about how to beat Liverpool... 

 

A couple of key points that he makes could suit us:

1. He says quick defenders that can match Liverpools attackers are important so that you can defend at "three quarters" rather than on the 18 yard box. You don't want to get pinned all the way back so that you've got no space to play out when you win the ball and the long pass option is off because you're too far away from the dangerous areas in the channels. Soyuncu, Pereira and Chilwell all fit the profile of quick defenders that can match their pace upfront and Evans' superb reading of the game adds an extra couple of yards since he always has a head start. 

 

2. He says the best way to get at them and beat the press is long-balls into the channels. Their fullbacks push very high, usually at the same time which leaves Van Dijk and Matip/Lovren at the back with Fabinho shielding them. They obviously expect this and are good at dealing with it BUT Vardy is one of the best in the world at chasing long balls and forcing mistakes. Plus our defenders are better on the ball than most teams Liverpool will play against and that sounds like a threatening combination to me! 

Even if Vardy can just force a throw in in their half, it relieves the pressure and puts us in a position where we can play our game and pin THEM in.

 

It's going to be a tough game but it's winnable! Teams that we've blown away this season have given Liverpool problems. If anyone can beat them, it's us! 

Great stuff.

Do we need a new thread 'how to beat Liverpool'?

[StriderHiryu]

2 hours ago, FoxFossil said:

So tell me again how are we going to beat Liverpool?

I'm not Rodgers so don't know what his plan is. We can take a look at what he tried last time though:

 

 

We played 4141, but had all three of Tielemans, Maddison and Praet start for us. This is probably because Rodgers wanted midfielders that could deal with Liverpool's high press, so everyone in the team could play their way out of trouble when chased down by their team. Maddison was used out on the left but given licence to roam and drift between the lines when we had possession. We tried the system before against Man United and Chelsea, but in those games Hamza started ahead of Praet.

 

Barnes played on the right hand side instead of the left and ahead of Perez and Gray. I think that's because Barnes is our best direct runner with the ball, and when Liverpool attack / press, there is massive amounts of space behind their fullbacks which Vardy and Barnes can get into.

 

We almost got a creditable 1-1 draw in this game, so we might well try the system again, though because we are at home and need to win to have any chance of a title shot, we might go for a more attacking outlook. In this game we were happier to concede possession and hit Liverpool on the break, whereas we might look to force the issue at the KP. Tough we were unlucky not to get a draw at Anfield, we only really started causing them problems in the last 15 minutes, and they could conceivably have scored more than they did. So we might need to play more on the front foot this time being the home side.

 

 

 

 

Edited 11 December 2019 by StriderHiryu

[Nicolo Barella]

5 hours ago, squarez said:

Absolutely sensational Posting.

 

For someone who wants to learn more about improving their own tactical analysis where is the best place to start? I love reading and watching stuff like this but I've never been able to read it on the pitch myself. Any advice?

I have heard the website Spielevarung (spelling?) is good but never got around to diving into it as it is a bit dry. TIFO football YouTube is also nice but more entry level.

[LC/FC]

2 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

I'm not Rodgers so don't know what his plan is. We can take a look at what he tried last time though:

 

 

We played 4141, but had all three of Tielemans, Maddison and Praet start for us. This is probably because Rodgers wanted midfielders that could deal with Liverpool's high press, so everyone in the team could play their way out of trouble when chased down by their team. Maddison was used out on the left but given licence to roam and drift between the lines when we had possession. We tried the system before against Man United and Chelsea, but in those games Hamza started ahead of Praet.

 

Barnes played on the right hand side instead of the left and ahead of Perez and Gray. I think that's because Barnes is our best direct runner with the ball, and when Liverpool attack / press, there is massive amounts of space behind their fullbacks which Vardy and Barnes can get into.

 

We almost got a creditable 1-1 draw in this game, so we might well try the system again, though because we are at home and need to win to have any chance of a title shot, we might go for a more attacking outlook. In this game we were happier to concede possession and hit Liverpool on the break, whereas we might look to force the issue at the KP. Tough we were unlucky not to get a draw at Anfield, we only really started causing them problems in the last 15 minutes, and they could conceivably have scored more than they did. So we might need to play more on the front foot this time being the home side.

 

 

 

 

I'm not Rodgers either but in my head, 3-5-2 could potentially hold a key to beating Liverpool. 

3 at the back to nullify their front 3,

2 wings backs against their 2, 3 in midfield to match that up and 2 quick strikers in Vardy and Iheanacho to play as a pair, get at their defense and run into the channels, as seen against Villa and Everton. 

The sacrifices would be Barnes and Perez for a defender and Kel.

Not sure about the 3rd defender though... Probably Fuchs.

 

All this because I saw the formation graphic...

 

Edit: It might be the reason why Kelechi's been getting game time recently. 

Edited 11 December 2019 by LC/FC

[Nicolo Barella]

2 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

I'm not Rodgers so don't know what his plan is. We can take a look at what he tried last time though:

 

 

We played 4141, but had all three of Tielemans, Maddison and Praet start for us. This is probably because Rodgers wanted midfielders that could deal with Liverpool's high press, so everyone in the team could play their way out of trouble when chased down by their team. Maddison was used out on the left but given licence to roam and drift between the lines when we had possession. We tried the system before against Man United and Chelsea, but in those games Hamza started ahead of Praet.

 

Barnes played on the right hand side instead of the left and ahead of Perez and Gray. I think that's because Barnes is our best direct runner with the ball, and when Liverpool attack / press, there is massive amounts of space behind their fullbacks which Vardy and Barnes can get into.

 

We almost got a creditable 1-1 draw in this game, so we might well try the system again, though because we are at home and need to win to have any chance of a title shot, we might go for a more attacking outlook. In this game we were happier to concede possession and hit Liverpool on the break, whereas we might look to force the issue at the KP. Tough we were unlucky not to get a draw at Anfield, we only really started causing them problems in the last 15 minutes, and they could conceivably have scored more than they did. So we might need to play more on the front foot this time being the home side.

 

 

 

 

If I had the misfortune (or fortune?) of having to set this team up against Liverpool, it would need players to take advantage of the space the fullbacks leave whilst having a strong, combative midfield. So not the 4312!

 

It would mean playing Praet over one of Tielemans or Maddison in midfield so as to stem the unrelenting pressure Liverpool would pour on us, and also playing two "wide" wingers who can essentially skin Robertson and Alexander-Arnold. 

 

That would probably be this:

 

Vardy

Barnes Maddison Praet Gray

Ndidi

Chilwell Soyuncu Evans Ricardo

Schmeichel

 

A bit of a baptism of fire to start Gray in a game like that but he's the only real winger who can hug the sideline on the right - Perez is much more of an inside player, and so wouldn't give Robertson as much cause for thought. In addition, Gray is more difficult to press and pacier than Perez, so Robertson would have more trouble tracking back and dealing with him.

 

Dropping Tielemans over Maddison is harsh but there's a couple of reasons for it:

 

• Maddison is in better general form

• Maddison has been putting more of a defensive shift in

• Maddison is more difficult to press

• Maddison has been more clinical recently

 

The 2nd and 3rd point being the most pertinent, Tielemans losing possession to Liverpool is scary. Without Tielemans, we lose his vision and passing range out to the wide mids, but we also gain more midfield solidity. 

 

A problem with that team is Gray and Barnes' finishing leaving Maddison and Vardy as the only real goal threats, but hopefully Rodgers could find a solution off the bench if Vardy can't put us up early through his finishing. What do you think? 

[StriderHiryu]

10 minutes ago, LC/FC said:

I'm not Rodgers either but in my head, 3-5-2 could potentially hold a key to beating Liverpool. 

3 at the back to nullify their front 3,

2 wings backs against their 2, 3 in midfield to match that up and 2 quick strikers in Vardy and Iheanacho to play as a pair, get at their defenseand run into the channels, as seen against Villa and Everton. 

The sacrifices would be Barnes and Perez for a defender and Kel.

Not sure about the 3rd defender though... Probably Fuchs.

 

All this because I saw the formation graphic...

 

 

 

Other teams have played 352 to counter our 4141 / 433 so on paper it makes sense.

 

Having two up front could mean struggling to match Liverpool's energy and numbers in the middle of the pitch. Fabinho, Henderson, Keita, Ox, Milner, Winjaldum... no matter which 3 are selected they've all got the legs to run for 90. So I'd fear if we started the game like that, we would give them control of the game and both Vardy and Nacho would get isolated. But a counter point to that could be that they could act as split strikers and operate in the massive spaces behind TAA and Robertson, and the 352 shape would still give us numbers against their wide players and fullbacks. We'd need to get control of the game and match first, which is very tough against Liverpool, but having a Vardy party in the space TAA leaves behind him with another striker to play to does sound like a way we could cause them big problems.

 

My suspicion is we start with Ndidi, Maddison, Praet and Tielemans again and just Vardy up front to contest the middle of the park, and switch to something else if we are chasing the game / trying to win. It will be interesting to see what Rodgers goes for. Wouldn't surprise me if he has something lined up already for Man City and Liverpool as he must have looked at those games well in advance and be thinking about them.

 

Anyway let's not take the two games for granted before then. Can't be complacent against Norwich and Man City away is as tough as fixtures come.

[LC/FC]

5 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

Other teams have played 352 to counter our 4141 / 433 so on paper it makes sense.

 

Having two up front could mean struggling to match Liverpool's energy and numbers in the middle of the pitch. Fabinho, Henderson, Keita, Ox, Milner, Winjaldum... no matter which 3 are selected they've all got the legs to run for 90. So I'd fear if we started the game like that, we would give them control of the game and both Vardy and Nacho would get isolated. But a counter point to that could be that they could act as split strikers and operate in the massive spaces behind TAA and Robertson, and the 352 shape would still give us numbers against their wide players and fullbacks. We'd need to get control of the game and match first, which is very tough against Liverpool, but having a Vardy party in the space TAA leaves behind him with another striker to play to does sound like a way we could cause them big problems.

 

My suspicion is we start with Ndidi, Maddison, Praet and Tielemans again and just Vardy up front to contest the middle of the park, and switch to something else if we are chasing the game / trying to win. It will be interesting to see what Rodgers goes for. Wouldn't surprise me if he has something lined up already for Man City and Liverpool as he must have looked at those games well in advance and be thinking about them.

 

Anyway let's not take the two games for granted before then. Can't be complacent against Norwich and Man City away is as tough as fixtures come.

The main thing about it was to use Vardy's and Iheanacho's pace to give us a more attacking threat. Liverpool aren't the best at defending as us, despite having VVD, we've had more clean sheets and less goals conceded than they have and if it wasn't for a stupid last minute mistake, we'd have had 1 point and taken 2 off them. But defensively we're even more solid than previously. There's going to be a goal against them somewhere, hopefully more than that. If Perez and Barnes were more clinical I'd be alright but considering the blossoming strike partnership that seems to be able to put chances away, this could just help us put away the massive amount of chances we create. Also our team is pretty rapid and fit too, so endurance for pressing and counter pressing shouldn't be a problem and I back our midfield trio to be more skillful than theirs whoever we pick too.

 

You're gonna have to provide an example of how Norwich play for me to gauge how tough they are. Because as Billy Big Bollocks as it may sound, I have not been paying attention to anything much below Chelsea for weeks now. Not since there was the top 4 pulling away and that whole 5th to 17th midtable musical chairs nonsense. Don't want none of that

 

 

And Man City are... Ify... 

They're there to be taken atm and tbh if Vincent Kompany wasn't destined to have a retirement send off by fate last season, we'd have gotten a point there too. And if we play Kel this time, hopefully he'll put it in. 

[LC/FC]

7 hours ago, FoxFossil said:

Great stuff.

Do we need a new thread 'how to beat Liverpool'?

And give away all our FT super tactical secrets created by our top minds???

 

 

 

[Deeg67]

If anybody knows how to shut down great attacking sides, it's Rafa.

 

 

[urban.spaceman]

@StriderHiryu Might be one for you old chap:

 

https://www.lcfc.com/tacticalinsights?fbclid=IwAR3KVS7Rn10zwT0Ew8gScvDAv9lzblZlgg1kLj-o9qsQ6yDW6oz5_ITe7Ek

[StriderHiryu]

1 hour ago, urban.spaceman said:

@StriderHiryu Might be one for you old chap:

 

https://www.lcfc.com/tacticalinsights?fbclid=IwAR3KVS7Rn10zwT0Ew8gScvDAv9lzblZlgg1kLj-o9qsQ6yDW6oz5_ITe7Ek

Only available to people in the game, or students. A shame as otherwise I'd have loved to attended. Thanks for posting it though!

[squarez]

19 hours ago, LC/FC said:

And give away all our FT super tactical secrets created by our top minds???

 

 

 

 

This forum truly is where the world's greatest minds convene to argue about how long a decade is.

 

[LC/FC]

15 minutes ago, squarez said:

 

This forum truly is where the world's greatest minds convene to argue about how long a decade is.

 

Aristotle, Socrates, Plato... Your boys took one hell of a beating! 

 

[Foxxed]

I did think having Chil and Ricardo exposed to approaching wingers and full backs was a downside of 442D but it gives us more counter attacking opportunities against sides who’d want to sit back and absorb pressure. 

[Dahnsouff]

14 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

Only available to people in the game, or students. A shame as otherwise I'd have loved to attended. Thanks for posting it though!

Time to start a petition folks. Send a letter to Top. Get the Birch involved. 

#striderhiryu4tacticalinsights

[Gwyn]

@StriderHiryu  absolute pleasure to read your posts and I'm learning so much and having played to a highish level and watched for years I feel like a novice compared to you Squire. 👌

I have a couple of questions for you :you mentioned earlier about having obtained?, awarded, both fifa badges but the eufa was something else, as in too complex?

What does a person looking to manage a registered football league team need it terms of badges etc.. I mean you are very articulate and you're knowledge and understanding is way above us watchers, so.... 

How did Frank Lampard, Gareth Southgate, Harry Redknapp etc.go on and get it? 

[StriderHiryu]

1 hour ago, Gwyn said:

@StriderHiryu  absolute pleasure to read your posts and I'm learning so much and having played to a highish level and watched for years I feel like a novice compared to you Squire. 👌

I have a couple of questions for you :you mentioned earlier about having obtained?, awarded, both fifa badges but the eufa was something else, as in too complex?

What does a person looking to manage a registered football league team need it terms of badges etc.. I mean you are very articulate and you're knowledge and understanding is way above us watchers, so.... 

How did Frank Lampard, Gareth Southgate, Harry Redknapp etc.go on and get it? 

No the UEFA B isn't hard to get in terms of difficulty, but it takes time, usually 9-12 months. Here's what you need:

 

COURSE PRE-REQUISITES

Prior to registration for the qualification, you are required to:

• Hold The FA Level 2 in Coaching Football course / 1st4sport Level 2 Certificate in Coaching Football
• Have fully completed your FA Level 2 action plan
• Be actively coaching a team in a season-long competition in England
• Be able to effectively communicate in English (this includes listening, speaking, reading and writing)

 

Prior to certification for the qualification, you are required to:

• Hold an in date FA Level 1 Introduction to First Aid in Football (or The FA Emergency Aid)
• Hold an in date completion certificate for The FA Safeguarding Workshop or the new FA Safeguarding for Coaches Workshop
• Complete both eLearning modules (Coaching Journey + Equity/Diversity)
• Attend all four blocks of learning, inclusive of 18 face-to-face Workshops
• Complete an 18 game project based around your own players and club environment - please note that this is reduced to a 12 game project for those that already hold the full FA Youth Award
• Receive a minimum of 3 in-situ visits with your team (training or match-day event) and be deemed practically competent
• Conduct a 30 minute presentation of your project to your course colleagues and staff.

 

You can check out the criteria for all of the courses on the FA's website. The areas in bold are why I don't have time to do the courses in question, as I recently started my own company with some friends. 

http://www.thefa.com/learning/courses

 

 

[Deeg67]

@StriderHiryu What's your take on whether Rodgers should be finding a way to get Praet on the field, irrespective of formation?  It's my feeling that when you have a player who does as many positive things as he does basically every time he plays, you don't get hung up on tactics - you find a way to damn well play him, period.  We've been on a great run, no doubt, but we can always be better - and even during this run, we've been better with Praet on the pitch than off it.  And the fact is he's so versatile that he can find a way to fit in any formation Rodgers chooses to play.

[Gwyn]

1 hour ago, StriderHiryu said:

No the UEFA B isn't hard to get in terms of difficulty, but it takes time, usually 9-12 months. Here's what you need:

 

COURSE PRE-REQUISITES

Prior to registration for the qualification, you are required to:

• Hold The FA Level 2 in Coaching Football course / 1st4sport Level 2 Certificate in Coaching Football
• Have fully completed your FA Level 2 action plan
• Be actively coaching a team in a season-long competition in England
• Be able to effectively communicate in English (this includes listening, speaking, reading and writing)

 

Prior to certification for the qualification, you are required to:

• Hold an in date FA Level 1 Introduction to First Aid in Football (or The FA Emergency Aid)
• Hold an in date completion certificate for The FA Safeguarding Workshop or the new FA Safeguarding for Coaches Workshop
• Complete both eLearning modules (Coaching Journey + Equity/Diversity)
• Attend all four blocks of learning, inclusive of 18 face-to-face Workshops
• Complete an 18 game project based around your own players and club environment - please note that this is reduced to a 12 game project for those that already hold the full FA Youth Award
• Receive a minimum of 3 in-situ visits with your team (training or match-day event) and be deemed practically competent
• Conduct a 30 minute presentation of your project to your course colleagues and staff.

 

You can check out the criteria for all of the courses on the FA's website. The areas in bold are why I don't have time to do the courses in question, as I recently started my own company with some friends. 

http://www.thefa.com/learning/courses

 

 

Wow that is intense and also congrats on the business hope it goes well for you. 

I would believe this is where ex players Are fast tracked, ala Southgate, lampard.. Also master, what does fast tracked mean, they gave them an assistant for the homework 🤔🤔😁

In my understanding their has only been one person to manage an a elite football team (Gérard Houlier) was a school teacher, has there been any since? 

[Gwyn]

One non footballer I think I meant 

[StriderHiryu]

2 hours ago, Deeg67 said:

@StriderHiryu What's your take on whether Rodgers should be finding a way to get Praet on the field, irrespective of formation?  It's my feeling that when you have a player who does as many positive things as he does basically every time he plays, you don't get hung up on tactics - you find a way to damn well play him, period.  We've been on a great run, no doubt, but we can always be better - and even during this run, we've been better with Praet on the pitch than off it.  And the fact is he's so versatile that he can find a way to fit in any formation Rodgers chooses to play.

There's definitely an argument for that, as every time he plays he seems like a cut above your regular midfielder in the league. He's also not had a consecutive run of games which would no doubt help him a lot, and is already performing IMO better than many players who in the did get a long run in the side such as Adrien Silva, Ayoze Perez, etc.  

 

But in saying that maintaining balance in any system is super important. Liverpool with Jordan Henderson I think is the best possible example of this. I personally do not rate him as a player at all, as I think he's technically quite poor. BUT for Liverpool as a team they always play so much better when he's involved and whilst he does a lot of the ugly work, it adds up. 

 

What would I do? I would try to buy a top wide forward in the January transfer window to push Barnes and Perez, and keep 4141 as the primary system with Praet still challenging for places. I would line up 442 Diamond more often though against bottom 10 teams or teams that push full backs on a lot, starting with Norwich. So I don't see Praet as a starter in 4141, but I do see him as a starter in 442 Diamond, if that makes sense. I prefer 4141 in terms of overall team balance and game control but recognise that teams like Everton and Watford parked the bus and we can't use that system in every game.