Entering a 'Transition Period'?

[Nalis]

25 minutes ago, Webbo said:

This policy of only selling 1 big player a season isn't really realistic. Its quite possible we could lose 2 or 3 closed season and there's little we can do about it. 

 

We might lose the manager before Christmas, who knows? 

 

All this would mean a lot of money to spend but a necessity to spend it and spend it well. We might luck out and find a better manager and better players but it could easily go the other way. 

The only thing we can do is make it as difficult as possible for suitors for the inevitable in order to squeeze as much money out of the buying club as possible, we are quite successful as doing this.

[lifted*fox]

9 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

There’s been one at the club ever since Ranieri left. Just not publicised in the same way the bloke who worked with Pearson did. Normally they are freelance, come in a couple of days a week if needed 

 

maybe we should look at getting them in monday to friday and weekends too. 

[Nalis]

19 minutes ago, Ross 'LCFC' Turner said:

Almost feels like the end of a massive “what could of been” era. 2 seasons in a row we looked destined to finish in the top 4 but we’ve been crippled by the COVID break & injuries. 
 

These last couple of seasons we’ve arguably had our most talented group of players but we’ve just not been able to get them all on the pitch together to see what we could of achieved and where we could of gone. 
 

Players are now starting to run down their contracts, our older, more experienced pros are getting older, our manager is on the ropes and our big talents will be off.

 

Just feels like we’ll always look back at this period (whilst it has still been successful) but always wonder “what could of been”. 

I think every club has a feeling of this to certain degrees but ours isnt as horrific with the league and cup wins. Brendan probably would have failed in the champions league anyway based on his european form and we've seen with the likes of Kante going that champions league football doesnt guarantee player retention.

Edited 21 November 2021 by Nalis

[Guest Col city fan]

1 hour ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Absolutely. Football works in cycles. I’ve said it before it generally works in 3 to 4 year periods. Famous Guttman quote I believe.
 

Happens to every professional team going. It’s normally player turnover or managerial change what freshens it up. You look at say Spurs who have stagnated with it. Pep and Mourinho commonly suffer with it. 

Just don’t agree

Look at Watford. They have developed a model whereby their way of managing in bad patches is simply to sack their manager and to get someone else in

Im not saying this is the ‘right’ way to do it, but it’s their way. And to argue some concept of ‘transition’ at that club would be say they are ‘transitioning’ every time it happens?!

No, LCFC aren’t in any phase of transition. We are a club who look to be in need of a fresh face, with fresh ideas and a fresh approach. This isn’t underpinned for any need to ‘transition’ it merely needs someone new to try to do this. 

[Matt]

1 hour ago, StanSP said:

Not the excuse I've heard for so long? 

 

Last 2 seasons where we finished 5th it appears we had reached a level. I don't remember seeing such an 'excuse'? 

 

I think you know full well what I mean when I say we could be entering one because of all the player/personnel change. If you can't glean that from my post I think you are just being facetious. 

 

Other teams definitely do. We aren't the first. We definitely won't be last. A team can get found out and at that point, it's when the manager and players take responsibility for finding different ideas and creativity and think of something new. We appear to have tried too hard in doing that and are now suffering. We've not found the right solution yet. 

 

You seem to have mistaken transition as a cliché even though the points I've raised don't relate to what you have made transition out to be. 

 

I don't buy that we've been in transition for the past 4 or 5 seasons hence my question that we could be entering one... 

Course we've been in transition for the past 4 or 5 seasons, this exclusive ad infinitum and obsession with 'possession based game' which is nothing but sloppy, constantly putting ourselves under pressure and negative which we're still yet to nail.

 

As for excuses, plenty have been made, the word has been used under Puel, many a time come turn of the year in 19/20 and last season, continuing into this season.

 

I'm sure teams do get found out, but I don't see them getting found out as easy and consistently as us, besides a majority of teams all play in this insipid way anyway so it shouldn't be too hard to work teams out, the exception is I guess that they do it better and/or have a plan B. It seems our plan B is 'Do plan A better' (I'm sure i've heard Rodgers actually say that), bit of a struggle when you stink at it in the first place and its not playing to any of the players/teams strengths. Shock.

[CosbehFox]

28 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Just don’t agree

Look at Watford. They have developed a model whereby their way of managing in bad patches is simply to sack their manager and to get someone else in

Im not saying this is the ‘right’ way to do it, but it’s their way. And to argue some concept of ‘transition’ at that club would be say they are ‘transitioning’ every time it happens?!

No, LCFC aren’t in any phase of transition. We are a club who look to be in need of a fresh face, with fresh ideas and a fresh approach. This isn’t underpinned for any need to ‘transition’ it merely needs someone new to try to do this. 

and Watford achieve **** all. Just go up and go down. They aren’t building anything. You’ve got the wrong end of the stick. The original post discusses personnel as opposed to anything tactical or performance based. 
 

I wouldn’t necessarily call it transition. But clubs need new players and managers because the message / tactics get tired. It takes about three to four years and then the ‘message’ gets tired within the squad. It’s a cycle which leads to a peak before dropping off. First players react to a new way of doing things, then they start to hone that and peak. By about the third year though they start to question a manager and his methods; it blurs into the same stuff. 
 

That 15/16 team for us was effectively four to five years of work when it came to squad and staff building. 
 

Last year’s FA Cup win was the accumulation of the club at the top level when Shakespeare became manager saying right we need to address a number of problem positions. We needed to start phasing out of Morgan, Huth, Simpson. 
 

Spurs held onto their squad for too long. Poch pushed for change and it went stale. They blamed him rather than sensibly sell a number of players at their peak. 
 

Nuno’s time expired at Wolves for example - his preferred tactic got tired. Pep at Bayern was an example where the quest for perfection  just completely tired the players mentally and physically by year 3.
 

Ferguson was an utter master at United where he could read when it needed re jigging. Got rid of plenty big names in doing so. But he knew when the next cycle. 

 

We ending the cycle of this squad and we need to relaunching the next one. That’s the point, we’ve peaked with this squad and now the overhauling has to start somewhere.

Edited 21 November 2021 by Cardiff_Fox

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, lifted*fox said:

 

maybe we should look at getting them in monday to friday and weekends too. 

What just have a psychologist sat there doing naff all? They should be available on a phone call when it comes up. 
 

You have a psychologist constantly banging on the same people it loses its effect. 

 

There was a mention earlier this season how they got a highlights reel together for Maddison to try and show him what he’s capable of 

Edited 21 November 2021 by Cardiff_Fox

[CosbehFox]

2 hours ago, Spudulike said:

It wasn't just 'that' tackle either. His hamstring injury during the last match against Tottenham ultimately cost us a UCL qualification. 

He’d been playing with that for about a month before it finally went sadly. Was really struggling in the Chelsea league game with it.

Edited 21 November 2021 by Cardiff_Fox

[Ric Flair]

3 hours ago, StanSP said:

Ignore the current form and manager speculation for a bit (although that may be linked and come about at some point).

 

But in terms of players, are we about to enter one of the most important periods the club has faced? Next 12-18 months are hugely pivotal as to how we continue to compete season by season. 

 

We've got 2 players who have been here for over a decade, still first team players, potentially approaching the end of their careers (Kasper and Vardy if you've been living under a rock!). Kasper being 35, Vardy 34. Could get a couple years more out of them. Daka has been brought in to replace Vardy. We could have Iversen or Ward as the Kasper replacements. 

 

We also have Evans who we probably won't get full seasons out of anymore. There could be any time he's out for a few weeks/months due to his injury issues and this leaves us quite short at the back. The other thing being that he (and the 2 players above) are huge characters and leaders and all will be hugely missed as a presence on and off the pitch. 

 

Then there's the players who are young, developing and could go on to better things - and this is accentuated by us potentially not having European football. The two obvious ones are Fofana and Tielemans. The latter I'm totally resigned to going in summer, if not January. Fofana is destined to bigger and better things. These are two massive players that would leave gaping holes in our squad once they're gone. 

 

Next step are the likes of Ndidi (arguable in the above category too), Soyuncu, Pereira, Barnes, Castagne, Maddison, Iheanacho... The kind of level of player satisfied here and perhaps lack some consistency to be a top performer, but now they've had that taste of European football, they'll want more. And if we can't provide it, they'll bound to go searching for it. I know there's the argument about Maddison not being good enough for anyone else above us but to me he's still a decent player with a lot to show. 

 

My point being is that there's only so long our 'policy' of selling only one big player per summer is going to last. And if we don't get European football for next season, we could find ourselves in somewhat a perilous position. 

Thankfully our transfer/recruitment team have got it right more often than they've got it wrong (yes, we know about Bertrand and Vestergaard!!), so I have a decent level of trust and faith that they'll cover it. But I do wonder how many players we may see leave because the huge clubs come calling (especially for Fofana and Youri). 

 

I know it's never been dull for us as Leicester fans, and I think that may continue as the personnel change... (again, this may be influenced if/when Rodgers leaves...). 

 

(also not saying every single player mentioned above leaves, but think we need to be prepared that some of them will want to go on to bigger and better things. Things they may not be able to achieve here?).

Yes, I said as much a few weeks ago. I think we need to sell 4-5 this summer and try and take the opportunity to revamp the XI.

[Fox92]

Trouble is the players we have bought in are not any better.

[turlo]

6 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Yes, I said as much a few weeks ago. I think we need to sell 4-5 this summer and try and take the opportunity to revamp the XI.

I hope Congerton is up to it. Have we replaced the Portuguese scout who left in the summer?

[Deeg67]

3 hours ago, CloudFox said:

It's definitely this, and then media speculation has got under everyone's skin - from manager to players, fans to local media.

 

We need a reset somehow, but football doesn't really give you that these days. Ideally we'd want an international break where none of our players went on international duty to do that. But that's just not going to happen ever again due to the calibre of our players.

 

@StanSPYou're completely right - we're in a state of transition. I think some of the players going may end up being a good thing, as gut wrenching as it will be. The spine of this team (Kaspar, Evans and Vardy) are all coming towards the end of their careers, and some of the younger talents we have (Youri, Ndidi) are highly sought after. A rebuild is inevitable. Thankfully Rudders seems to be on it with bringing in Fofana and Daka, but both are young. I think we need another (younger) semi-veteran to come in with fresh perspective. Evans was that, but his injury (and now age) are hampering that. Tarkowski would have been perfect, but that's not an option any more.

 

I agree with the transition part.  But what evidence is there that Ndidi is "highly sought after"?  I think this is an invented assumption by our fans - there have scarcely been any rumors surrounding Wilf and I don't think it's a coincidence.  He's a very good player but his skill set is extremely limited - he does one thing very well, and it's not typically something the truly giant clubs pay big money for midfielders to do - and not much else.  He's worth more to us given our squad limitations than he would be to a club with big money to spend, for whom he'd be a squad player and someone to chuck on with ten minutes left to preserve a lead.

[Matt]

8 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

Trouble is the players we have bought in are not any better.

This is what I mean, we've gone and are still going for some reason unbeknown to me down this route of 'transition' trying (And I can't stress the word trying enough) to be a 'possession based team', yet we're still bringing players in not suited to it, quite clearly.

 

Then we don't play to their strengths, put them under pressure by playing this way, constantly making mistakes, draining their confidence. Madness.

 

But don't worry about them constantly playing their way into trouble, constantly being pressed, constantly putting them under pressure and making mistakes, it's the nasty knuckle dragging fans booing that's causing anxiety.

 

Edited 21 November 2021 by Matt

[Fox92]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

This is what I mean, we've gone down this 'transition' of trying to be a 'possession based team', yet we're still bringing players in not suited to it, quite clearly.

 

Then we don't play to their strengths, put them under pressure by playing this way, constantly making mistakes, draining their confidence. Madness.

 

But don't worry about them constantly playing their way into trouble, constantly being pressed, constantly putting them under pressure and making mistakes, it's the nasty knuckle dragging fans booing that's causing anxiety.

I looked around the pitch yesterday and couldn't see any new player that I thought would influence/change the game for us. I don't mind Lookman, I've always thought he was a decent player, but he isn't a great improvement.

Bertrand and Vestergaard were warming up on the touchline...

Daka never gets a look in so he's never going to get a feel of the league. 

[South Shire Fox]

Just think theres alot of players who dont really want to be here anymore and see their futures elsewhere. Doesnt feel like theres a team unity anymore either.

[Ric Flair]

7 minutes ago, turlo said:

I hope Congerton is up to it. Have we replaced the Portuguese scout who left in the summer?

Yes we have done recently

[Matt]

1 minute ago, Fox92 said:

I looked around the pitch yesterday and couldn't see any new player that I thought would influence/change the game for us. I don't mind Lookman, I've always thought he was a decent player, but he isn't a great improvement.

Bertrand and Vestergaard were warming up on the touchline...

Daka never gets a look in so he's never going to get a feel of the league. 

I wasn't sure about the addition of Lookman but he's been decent, far too positive, exciting and attacking for Brendan though.

 

Prime example of a player signed that doesn't fit in with his 'philosophy'.

[Guest StevieLynex]

3 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

Indeed,

Innovative way of recruiting players

[lifted*fox]

28 minutes ago, South Shire Fox said:

Just think theres alot of players who dont really want to be here anymore and see their futures elsewhere. Doesnt feel like theres a team unity anymore either.

 

The unity thing is long gone, dead & buried. If you look back, it's been a LONG time since we had a group of players on the pitch who fought every last battle for one another. We've returned to an era of finger pointing when things go wrong instead of mucking in and putting things right together. 

 

As much as I would rather Rodgers turned this around - with his comments from yesterday, you have to wonder if this finger pointing isn't leaking down from the top.

 

Pearson's 'unity' legacy is dead.

Edited 21 November 2021 by lifted*fox

[HankMarvin]

3 hours ago, filbertway said:

I think every 2 or 3 seasons its healthy to have a bit of an overhaul. Im quite happy with the succession planning for Vards and Kasper tbh. Slightly concerned at the number of players currently expected to be out of contract in 2023 though.

 

We need to get better at shifting dead wood though, most teams seem to be able to get a decent price for their cast offs yet we rarely seem to be able to manage it.

 

Big couple of seasons in terms of the squad and I'd prefer that Rodgers and congerton were absolutely nowhere near the decision making

That’s why Ferguson done it with title winners.

what makes these players who have nearly qualified twice for the champions league 2 years in a row and won a FA cup any different except have lower expectations playing for Leicester.

There just doesn’t seem to be the same hunger and desire their was when BR took over. I’m not sure that is all down to BR 

[Bayfox]

3 hours ago, Spudulike said:

Bad timing for a transition on the pitch. If something disastrous happens then it could potentially affect the infrastructure upgrades and set us back years. We have a history of this remembering the move to Freeman's Wharf almost killed the club and even back to the 1930's when a new double-decker was to be built. Different times and all that and prefer not to think about it too deeply but, you know.... 

Well if top was there yesterday seeing 1000s head for the exit early. Wont have gone a miss surely, when you are looking to add 8000, you need decent PL football.

[leicesterseddon]

If having a couple of players north of 30 and a being in danger of losing your best players means we’re in “transition”, then I think every club is perpetually in transition? 

[Guest Col city fan]

1 hour ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

and Watford achieve **** all. Just go up and go down. They aren’t building anything. You’ve got the wrong end of the stick. The original post discusses personnel as opposed to anything tactical or performance based. 
 

I wouldn’t necessarily call it transition. But clubs need new players and managers because the message / tactics get tired. It takes about three to four years and then the ‘message’ gets tired within the squad. It’s a cycle which leads to a peak before dropping off. First players react to a new way of doing things, then they start to hone that and peak. By about the third year though they start to question a manager and his methods; it blurs into the same stuff. 
 

That 15/16 team for us was effectively four to five years of work when it came to squad and staff building. 
 

Last year’s FA Cup win was the accumulation of the club at the top level when Shakespeare became manager saying right we need to address a number of problem positions. We needed to start phasing out of Morgan, Huth, Simpson. 
 

Spurs held onto their squad for too long. Poch pushed for change and it went stale. They blamed him rather than sensibly sell a number of players at their peak. 
 

Nuno’s time expired at Wolves for example - his preferred tactic got tired. Pep at Bayern was an example where the quest for perfection  just completely tired the players mentally and physically by year 3.
 

Ferguson was an utter master at United where he could read when it needed re jigging. Got rid of plenty big names in doing so. But he knew when the next cycle. 

 

We ending the cycle of this squad and we need to relaunching the next one. That’s the point, we’ve peaked with this squad and now the overhauling has to start somewhere.

Transitioning is just a tautological concept I think. And to suggest this happens after every set number of years (did you mention 4 yrs) doesn’t add up does it? 
Ferguson just refreshed his squad when he felt it needed it. Whether this was every 2,3,4 yrs or whatever didn’t matter. And by refreshing his squad, for Sir Alex, that meant just as much by offloading players as by bringing in new faces. He just ‘knew’ when to do it, based upon excellent managerial acumen and experience. Was this ‘transitioning’ in its purest sense? I don’t think so. I think it was just a bloke knowing what he was doing. 
And what about those teams who languish in the bottom half season after season after season? Do Burnley ‘transition’ particularly? Crystal Palace haven’t transitioned, they’ve simply bought in a manager with fresh ideas AND have made some very good signings. Christ, Viera has even got Benteke scoring goals!

Conceptually, ‘Transitioning’ is in Popper’s terms ‘unfalsifiable’ It’s amorphous, it’s fairy dust. It can’t be pinned down
Leicester need some new impetus, some freshness, a change is all. Rodgers has gotten his feet firmly under the table and has gotten too comfortable imo 

[CosbehFox]

13 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Transitioning is just a tautological concept I think. And to suggest this happens after every set number of years (did you mention 4 yrs) doesn’t add up does it? 
Ferguson just refreshed his squad when he felt it needed it. Whether this was every 2,3,4 yrs or whatever didn’t matter. And by refreshing his squad, for Sir Alex, that meant just as much by offloading players as by bringing in new faces. He just ‘knew’ when to do it, based upon excellent managerial acumen and experience. Was this ‘transitioning’ in its purest sense? I don’t think so. I think it was just a bloke knowing what he was doing. 
And what about those teams who languish in the bottom half season after season after season? Do Burnley ‘transition’ particularly? Crystal Palace haven’t transitioned, they’ve simply bought in a manager with fresh ideas AND have made some very good signings. Christ, Viera has even got Benteke scoring goals!

Conceptually, ‘Transitioning’ is in Popper’s terms ‘unfalsifiable’ It’s amorphous, it’s fairy dust. It can’t be pinned down
Leicester need some new impetus, some freshness, a change is all. Rodgers has gotten his feet firmly under the table and has gotten too comfortable imo 

My post literally said transition is not the most appropriate word. So don’t know why you keep quoting it with speech bubbles. We aren’t miles apart here. 

 

A squad needs overhauling every so often, generally three to four years. The quote I refer to is from Bela Guttman, ‘the third year is fatal’. This being from the godfathers of football management. It’s a concept. An idea which is been proven rather so by Rodgers time here and his spells elsewhere. Generally it’s the same length of contact most PL players have. 
 

Burnley regularly rehaul their squad; their signing of Cornet this summer suggested the hints of changing tact. A Tarkowski replacement has been bought in preparation. 
 

Palace are a clear example of what the original post is. After years of consolidation by Hodgson , they decided to start playing a different style of football and brought the players into achieve that. That sort of overhaul we aren’t far from. 
 

A good example where it’s not gone so right is Southampton. Where after losing all their superb players, the replacements weren’t up to scratch and now are slowly beginning to recover this summer with some astute signings. 

[Freeman's Wharfer]

It’s feeling like the end of a cycle. Those top 4 misses were sliding doors moments - had we got one or two of them over the line then we’d have bought better new players and had our best players already at the club signing new deals.

 

As it is, we missed and we’ll pay the price for that. Hopefully all of those who thought that those of us who were annoyed at missing champions league football now realise why. It’ll be back to mid table and “happy to be here” Leicester City just how they see it.