Players downed tool for him?

[KrefelderFox666]

1 minute ago, Fox92 said:

Our squad is better than Wolves, Everton and possibly even Spurs.

 

The only area West Ham are better than us is in attack. I'd love Bowen here. They can choose from Bowen, Benrahama, Antonio.. it's just better than what we have.. but in other positions I think we're better than them.

 

People were talking how good our squad was in the summer. Now we're not performing it's suddenly not that good?

I just don't think I could easily say our squad is better than any of them, or vice versa for that matter. Fine margins make big differences. We have a good, solid squad and if everyone was fit, I am sure we would be looking much better. But that's another problem...

 

The good thing is that the league (at this moment) is fairly tight in the middle (6th down to 16th). So if we can get some consistency, we might be able to challenge for 6th/7th. December would have been a good month to get some consistency. Fingers crossed we sort ourselves out and start performing to our capabilities and better.

[Izzy]

I think our squad is top 6 on paper but the problem is too many players are out of form, lacking confidence, injured, or returning from injury.

 

We know that with everyone firing on all cylinders we can compete with the best but we're way off atm.

 

I reckon we just need to be patient, ride the storm out, accept this season is a write off, and go again next August when hopefully everyone is back to 100%

[KrefelderFox666]

3 minutes ago, Costock_Fox said:

That really isn’t true.

It's my opinion on this squad. Would love the team to prove me wrong of course.

[Fox92]

Just now, KrefelderFox666 said:

I just don't think I could easily say our squad is better than any of them, or vice versa for that matter. Fine margins make big differences. We have a good, solid squad and if everyone was fit, I am sure we would be looking much better. But that's another problem...

 

The good thing is that the league (at this moment) is fairly tight in the middle (6th down to 16th). So if we can get some consistency, we might be able to challenge for 6th/7th. December would have been a good month to get some consistency. Fingers crossed we sort ourselves out and start performing to our capabilities and better.

Oh I do agree with that. It's just a shame about our fixtures in December now although the next two (Newcastle, Everton) are the ones I look at as games we should win.

[sacreblueits442]

42 minutes ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

The problem is that we are now playing at the level we should be. We are average in the PL and like it or not, we have been overachieving for the last 2 years. This season West Ham are overachieving.

 

The PL is highly competitive when you take the big teams away, and the awful ones at the bottom. There is not much in it. Probably 8 to 10 teams fighting for similar positions. Our form is off so we are bottom of that pile.

 

The worrying thing is, I cannot see that change any time soon. This month could be a killer for us.

....I  am sure Top will be delighted to hear this, it is exactly what he set out to achieve when he invested £100m on facilities for the squad to train in!!!

  We have not over achieved, the big boys have dropped off and we have played well and have been consistent in a league of inconsistent teams.

  West Ham deserve to be where they are, they have worked hard to get themselves into their position in the league and their engine room has been the feature of this.

   Money will not always guarantee success in this league and there is no reason why we should be where we are with the quality of our squad. We are better than this, we proved in in the last two seasons.

  Anyone going around being grateful that we are in this league and making up the numbers, needs to re-evaluate their views. 

Edited 6 December 2021 by sacreblueits442
Spelling error.

[VLC86]

22 minutes ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

It's my opinion on this squad. Would love the team to prove me wrong of course.

It feels like you are commenting on form rather than ability.

[The boy Linacre]

15 minutes ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

I just don't think I could easily say our squad is better than any of them, or vice versa for that matter. Fine margins make big differences. We have a good, solid squad and if everyone was fit, I am sure we would be looking much better. But that's another problem...

 

The good thing is that the league (at this moment) is fairly tight in the middle (6th down to 16th). So if we can get some consistency, we might be able to challenge for 6th/7th. December would have been a good month to get some consistency. Fingers crossed we sort ourselves out and start performing to our capabilities and better.

Sadly we needed to get more than 1pt against Southampton & Villa, as the end of the month is going to be tough with our current form.

We need Ricky and JJ back in the next 2 weeks & not sure when Wes is back but for some reason we are struggling at the back constantly, sadly Ricky has just been in and out since his long term injury, blows so hot and cold.

Wilf has been generally poor since returning from injury, bit headless at times, terrible passing and distribution.

Sadly too much inconsistency on an individual basis, Barnes hasn't been great at all, then 1st half yesterday v good.  Maddison for months has been poor, then the last month is getting better & better.  Lookman just hasn't got it, not at our club anyway.  KDH looked reasonable yesterday, but needs a run but won't get it as Youri returns.

Just don't feel like they are all working for each other and there is not great unity there.  Seen it on a few threads, they seem/look lazy, pressing poor, off the ball movement - limited.  Tracking back - limited.

You're getting paid a lot of money just to run around a lot, that should be a given, Liverpool, Chelsea & Man C manage it and continue to do so after winning trophies, when the motivation might be reduced.  This bit should be a given, don't be outworked and never give up on anything.

[Guest Lako42]

There are fundamental issues with us and some is related to effort. 

 

We are conceding the most shots in the league and 2nd most on target. This is what should be sounding the alarm bells. Yes we are absolutely garbage at defending corners and crosses but we are also conceding the ball all over the pitch. 

 

 

There are massive issues to sort and I think most of it stems from the style we try to play. We are now in such a deep hole that a change in style is required to drag them out of it.  

[Le Renard]

Players downing tools is a lazy accusation, this is a confidence issue which has got into the players heads, they look like rabbits caught in headlights when they have to defend corners, crosses or free kicks.  Rodgers is paid to try and restore the belief, but he can't just do it alone, the players need to be accountable just like him! 

It is such a cliché, but football is a confidence game, I just don't see it coming back in the short term and this is why Rodgers may well pay the price.  Perhaps it is time to start a new Leicester curse, win us a trophy and get the sack next season!

[KrefelderFox666]

17 minutes ago, Costock_Fox said:

It feels like you are commenting on form rather than ability.

It's quite a fine line between them to be fair. I still think if every player in every team played to their ability, we would be struggling for Top 6, however, we aren't far off with this squad. Maybe the injuries and the associated poor form (especially players coming back from injury) are simply clouding this all over. The injuries simply have to be attributed to Brendan and his team as it is more than just bad luck.

[ARM1968]

1 minute ago, Le Renard said:

Players downing tools is a lazy accusation, this is a confidence issue which has got into the players heads, they look like rabbits caught in headlights when they have to defend corners, crosses or free kicks.  Rodgers is paid to try and restore the belief, but he can't just do it alone, the players need to be accountable just like him! 

It is such a cliché, but football is a confidence game, I just don't see it coming back in the short term and this is why Rodgers may well pay the price.  Perhaps it is time to start a new Leicester curse, win us a trophy and get the sack next season!

That could work. 
 

On a confidence note, we are certainly suffering from Ndidi’s huge drop in form, amongst some others. However some players seem to be recovering form. So anyway, we go on a massive run after Christmas and miss out on top 4 by a point. 
 

Doing it the other way this time. 

[KrefelderFox666]

41 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

Oh I do agree with that. It's just a shame about our fixtures in December now although the next two (Newcastle, Everton) are the ones I look at as games we should win.

We have Spurs in between those too.

 

Forgetting cup games:

 

Newcastle (H)

Spurs (H)

Everton (A)

Man City (A)

Liverpool (H)

Norwich (H)

 

A possible 18 points of which we simply have to get 10. At an absolute minimum 8 (although that would be disappointing).

[sacreblueits442]

5 minutes ago, The boy Linacre said:

Sadly we needed to get more than 1pt against Southampton & Villa, as the end of the month is going to be tough with our current form.

We need Ricky and JJ back in the next 2 weeks & not sure when Wes is back but for some reason we are struggling at the back constantly, sadly Ricky has just been in and out since his long term injury, blows so hot and cold.

Wilf has been generally poor since returning from injury, bit headless at times, terrible passing and distribution.

Sadly too much inconsistency on an individual basis, Barnes hasn't been great at all, then 1st half yesterday v good.  Maddison for months has been poor, then the last month is getting better & better.  Lookman just hasn't got it, not at our club anyway.  KDH looked reasonable yesterday, but needs a run but won't get it as Youri returns.

Just don't feel like they are all working for each other and there is not great unity there.  Seen it on a few threads, they seem/look lazy, pressing poor, off the ball movement - limited.  Tracking back - limited.

You're getting paid a lot of money just to run around a lot, that should be a given, Liverpool, Chelsea & Man C manage it and continue to do so after winning trophies, when the motivation might be reduced.  This bit should be a given, don't be outworked and never give up on anything.

....when I watched the pre- season friendlies it struck me that the team lacked something!!!

  The games and performances were always put down as, " we are a week or so behind our opponents ", and that is the reason why they seemed so much more fluid in their game.

  When it came to the Villarreal match, we looked the same but we were well on top of a team which had a lot of quality. We still looked the same but their was a lack of movement and it was as if we were subuteo players on the field. Little movement but each individual character contributed in their area. It struck me at the time a bit strange as we seemed to lack any real spark, no real movement and little fluidity throughout the team.

  We appear to have continued this approach this season and our wooden performances are there to be seen game after game.

  Something changed in pre-season, it had happened before Fofana's injury and it encompasses the whole team. Whatever style of play Rodgers has chosen to implement, it is just not working. 

[sacreblueits442]

8 minutes ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

We have Spurs in between those too.

 

Forgetting cup games:

 

Newcastle (H)

Spurs (H)

Everton (A)

Man City (A)

Liverpool (H)

Norwich (H)

 

A possible 18 points of which we simply have to get 10. At an absolute minimum 8 (although that would be disappointing).

...Man.City, Liverpool combo again...that will be fun!!!

[KrefelderFox666]

16 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...Man.City, Liverpool combo again...that will be fun!!!

We always get shafted at Christmas. Always shortest turnaround as well. Not sure we have two squads to use this season. Last year it was 10 changes I think between the two matches (26th and 28th).

[VLC86]

43 minutes ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

It's quite a fine line between them to be fair. I still think if every player in every team played to their ability, we would be struggling for Top 6, however, we aren't far off with this squad. Maybe the injuries and the associated poor form (especially players coming back from injury) are simply clouding this all over. The injuries simply have to be attributed to Brendan and his team as it is more than just bad luck.

I agree it’s a fine line but for me, we finished on our par last year which was 5th and I wouldn’t say that the teams you mentioned have strengthened so much that means, on paper, you would say that they should be finishing higher.

 

That leads me to think the poor performances are one of the below…

 

We have recruited players that have altered the squad dynamic.

 

The squad have an issue with the management

 

The player ability has significantly dropped due to natural fade, lack of motivation or poor coaching. The first leads me onto another question, should the players have naturally deteriorated?

 

I’m struggling to find many answers to this question which don’t point back to the management.

[fuchsntf]

3 hours ago, filbertway said:

The same things are happening because the players are positioned the same at set pieces. Nothing has changed, hes continuing to set the players up the same way. Allowing the other teams best players to wander freely and unmarked by anyone that is capable of challenging them is stupid as a one off. To keep seeing it cost the team and continue to stick to it is just mental.

 

The players look like robots, absolutely drilled to the point of having no expression on the pitch and all as meek as the manager when the chips are down.

 

Were incredibly predictable and this is why semi competent managers with half decent players are continually looking better than us. The only thing keeping us out of a relegation scrap is the talent of the players. They're being managed horrifically badly and have been for some time

Then I would suggest we get rid of the whole team....If they cant Take responsibility in the game & discuss among themselves this aint working.....I

Because for myself, I am Not interested in any Player who cant Take on pitch, in-game-responsibility...

 

If My goalkeeper, said he doesn't want anybody on the Post,I would remind him First to do his job, & come out & collect some others these crosses,if someone

can head it, a GK can bloodywell Fist it...Legend or no legend, Schmeichel might just have too much to say.( I could be wrong)

But I cant see Rodgers/Any manager having the players on Remote control, though sorting this Problem Area out  is Now The managers responsibility and there

I wont disagree with you, but the passive Turgid performances,  on Ball movement & decision Making , sorry I put that in the players court...

 

last night, we were playing decent Football & Controlling the game, then exactly has you have implied, we implode because of the mistakes and poverty areas

you well mention...

[inckley fox]

8 minutes ago, fuchsntf said:

Then I would suggest we get rid of the whole team....If they cant Take responsibility in the game & discuss among themselves this aint working.....I

Because for myself, I am Not interested in any Player who cant Take on pitch, in-game-responsibility...

 

If My goalkeeper, said he doesn't want anybody on the Post,I would remind him First to do his job, & come out & collect some others these crosses,if someone

can head it, a GK can bloodywell Fist it...Legend or no legend, Schmeichel might just have too much to say.( I could be wrong)

But I cant see Rodgers/Any manager having the players on Remote control, though sorting this Problem Area out  is Now The managers responsibility and there

I wont disagree with you, but the passive Turgid performances,  on Ball movement & decision Making , sorry I put that in the players court...

 

last night, we were playing decent Football & Controlling the game, then exactly has you have implied, we implode because of the mistakes and poverty areas

you well mention...

He rightly takes credit when things are going well. It's a given that managers take the flak when it isn't. If you spend fifty million on signings and they're not significantly improving the side, there'll be criticism. If you're not defending set pieces, which is largely a coaching issue, questions will be asked.

 

And I largely agree with people pointing out that a more domineering keeper would help in these instances, but it's not as if Schmeichel is defending set pieces in a radically different way to the past, at times when we were relatively solid from dead balls. You'd have to look at the nature of the marking, the positioning of players, the numbers we have back and the changes in personnel before you could definitely say 'it's this chap here who's to blame', and if you go through that analytical process you'll come across a whole raft of coaching and management issues before you can pinpoint a member, or members, of the playing staff who are responsible. For instance, I recall Ward conceding from a set piece last year and everyone saying 'oh, so it's not just Kasper'.

 

After all, it's not only the defence we played yesterday which is at fault. We've had Bertrand on the left, Pereira on the right, Amartey and Vestergard in the centre... and we've tried a five... and we were still poor from set pieces. As we were last year, albeit to a lesser degree, with Justin and Fofana in there. And it's not as if we're especially effective at attacking set pieces either, or even taking throw-ins.

 

It was noticeable yesterday that from throw-ins we either went short or backwards and played ourselves into dead ends. Villa, at one point, picked up a throw in exactly the same place as we had, knocked it straight forward and got a chance. The reason for us being caught out by this is that this never happens in training, because everyone is going short, going backwards. Much like our corners in training must look a lot better against our defenders, and our defending much better against our set piece routines. It simply suggests that a fresh pair of eyes and ideas are needed (and no, I don't mean 'fire the manager').

 

A bit of a myth built up around our players five years ago, with the debunked accusations that they were lobbying against Ranieri. Even if that were the case, there's only a handful of them left now, and I've seen nothing to suggest that Schmeichel, Vardy or Albrighton are kicking up a stink. It's too easy to confuse a side which has become dispirited by strategies which are no longer working with 'downing tools' or 'treachery' or whatever. And it's too easy to believe that the solution is to switch keeper, or bring in KDH, or drop Lookman, or recall Iheanacho, or go to four or five at the back, when in many cases we're just going round in circles.

 

To me, it seems that - set pieces aside - the balance of the side is wrong, with too many players who - regardless of what BR is telling them - simply aren't great, tireless, aggressive off-the-ball workers; and we're tweaking a little something here, a little something there, instead of squarely addressing this.

 

 

[filbertway]

42 minutes ago, fuchsntf said:

Then I would suggest we get rid of the whole team....If they cant Take responsibility in the game & discuss among themselves this aint working.....I

Because for myself, I am Not interested in any Player who cant Take on pitch, in-game-responsibility...

 

If My goalkeeper, said he doesn't want anybody on the Post,I would remind him First to do his job, & come out & collect some others these crosses,if someone

can head it, a GK can bloodywell Fist it...Legend or no legend, Schmeichel might just have too much to say.( I could be wrong)

But I cant see Rodgers/Any manager having the players on Remote control, though sorting this Problem Area out  is Now The managers responsibility and there

I wont disagree with you, but the passive Turgid performances,  on Ball movement & decision Making , sorry I put that in the players court...

 

last night, we were playing decent Football & Controlling the game, then exactly has you have implied, we implode because of the mistakes and poverty areas

you well mention...

Remember against WBA when we played against Rodgers wishes and took a comfortable and dominant 3-0 lead into the break? He was absolutely foaming at the mouth angry about that.

 

I'd love the players to ignore his instructions and play how we've seen that they can. Clearly he takes great exception to it though.

[ajthefox]

5 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

The idea that whole squads of players "down tools" if they get fed up of managers is fvcking mental.

 

The odd player, maybe, but it's a charade that'd simply be so impossible to keep up that it'd look like match fixing.

6 hours ago, Babylon said:

If there are problems at work and your manager is unable to fix things, eventually you’ll lose confidence in them and they will lose your ear.

 

Said it weeks ago that’s what it looked like to me. I don’t think anyone is downing tools though. Just loss of belief in what he’s trying to do.

I agree with you all and I think Babs has summed it quite well - players don't really consciously down tools, definitely not a while squad. I think it's more of a loss of confidence and perhaps belief in what the manager is saying. 

 

4 hours ago, Fox92 said:

Well it's a joke. It's clearly not the worse we've ever played.

 

Plus I get fed up with "players downed tools". Only ever happens here that.

I get your frustration but in fairness to the OP, they never said this was as bad as we've ever been, just that it was the least they were enjoying watching us. Massive difference.

 

And I've definitely seen people saying "downed tools" on several other forums. It does seem to be more prevalent here since the Ranieri exit but it happens elsewhere too. 

 

 

[Strokes]

It’s irrelevant really, they aren’t playing for him. Whether it’s because they’ve lost faith, confidence or whatever. The problem is the manager can’t get a tune out of them, the same errors week on week. It’s only going one way.

If he manages to get out of here with his reputation in tact, he will be lucky. You can’t gift teams two goals every week and expect to keep your job for long.

[Guest Lcfc82]

I’d say the players have more lost faith / confidence in him than downing tools. Either way these situations only tend to end one way.