Levi Bellfield ‘confesses to Russell murders’

[MPH]

1 minute ago, Scotch said:

To be honest, I hope it's not. The thought of someone spending 20 odd years whilst innocent is horrific. Hope to fuch they never got it that wrong. 

I totally get what you are saying. I guess I was meaning that it would mean that an innocent man gets to go free.

[ClaphamFox]

3 hours ago, Scotch said:

To be honest, I hope it's not. The thought of someone spending 20 odd years whilst innocent is horrific. Hope to fuch they never got it that wrong. 

The thing is, Michael Stone's conviction is highly dubious irrespective of whether Bellfield's confession turns out to be true or not. There just isn't any credible evidence against him. 

[Basildon Fox]

On 07/02/2022 at 12:11, SecretPro said:

Kent Police have already said they will not to be looking at this case again. They are happy as is.

Well the IPCC will be involved anyway so they will not have a choice.  They will already know the scope of cover up from other high profile cases so refusing full access to the case files etc. will not be an option.

[ClaphamFox]

Stone’s convictions are now being formally reviewed by the CCRC:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-67038913

[Paninistickers]

23 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

Stone’s convictions are now being formally reviewed by the CCRC:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-67038913

His conviction was a sham from the get go. High profile case. Kent police just needed a head on a stick

[BKLFox]

53 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

His conviction was a sham from the get go. High profile case. Kent police just needed a head on a stick

Happened a fair bit in the day on these high profile cases.

I’m currently watching The Long Shadow and if Sutcliffe had stopped at 6 (I think it was) then an innocent man would have been convicted as they were about to pin it on him but another murder happened when this man was in custody, had he not been then he’d be in prison for life as they were desperate at that point and so scared of losing their jobs they would just accuse anyone that half fitted the profile.

 

It does make you think 🤔 

[Paninistickers]

3 hours ago, BKLFox said:

Happened a fair bit in the day on these high profile cases.

I’m currently watching The Long Shadow and if Sutcliffe had stopped at 6 (I think it was) then an innocent man would have been convicted as they were about to pin it on him but another murder happened when this man was in custody, had he not been then he’d be in prison for life as they were desperate at that point and so scared of losing their jobs they would just accuse anyone that half fitted the profile.

 

It does make you think 🤔 

Colin Stagg. Barry Bulsara (or whatever he called himself) ....even the pitchfork murders they tried to pin on another lad 

 

Stitch ups absolutely rife in the 70s 80s and 90s 

[BKLFox]

4 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Colin Stagg. Barry Bulsara (or whatever he called himself) ....even the pitchfork murders they tried to pin on another lad 

 

Stitch ups absolutely rife in the 70s 80s and 90s 

We all know the lack of technology greatly hindered police forces, DNA profiling, cross force collaboration and just not having data at their fingers via computers etc but a lot of the ineptness was down to societal perception, women should be seen and not heard, a person with high standing social status is more reliable than someone from a middle / lower class and the general bullishness of men not wanting to be proved wrong are just a few examples of what was wrong with policing (society) during those era’s.

 

[Spiritwalker]

4 hours ago, BKLFox said:

Happened a fair bit in the day on these high profile cases.

I’m currently watching The Long Shadow and if Sutcliffe had stopped at 6 (I think it was) then an innocent man would have been convicted as they were about to pin it on him but another murder happened when this man was in custody, had he not been then he’d be in prison for life as they were desperate at that point and so scared of losing their jobs they would just accuse anyone that half fitted the profile.

 

It does make you think 🤔 

From what Ive seen in previous documentaries and in The Long Shadow so far I would be livid if one

of my friends or relatives were a later victim of the Ripper, the incompetence of the police was staggering.

 

[FoxesDeb]

1 hour ago, Paninistickers said:

Colin Stagg. Barry Bulsara (or whatever he called himself) ....even the pitchfork murders they tried to pin on another lad 

 

Stitch ups absolutely rife in the 70s 80s and 90s 

It still is rife in the US now, proper 3rd world judicial system where the system favours those with money, and the ultimate price to pay is with lives.

 

Our system might not be flawless, but if I was facing a court I'd much rather it be in western Europe than anywhere else.in the world.

[Parafox]

6 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

It still is rife in the US now, proper 3rd world judicial system where the system favours those with money, and the ultimate price to pay is with lives.

 

Our system might not be flawless, but if I was facing a court I'd much rather it be in western Europe than anywhere else.in the world.

 

Me too. If only because we have no death penalty. 

 

 

[leicsmac]

11 minutes ago, Parafox said:

 

Me too. If only because we have no death penalty. 

 

 

I simply cannot understand those who advocate for the death penalty when it is so obvious that innocent people will and do die as a result of it being part of any justice system, simply because the system we have is not and probably never will be perfect.

[Paninistickers]

31 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

It still is rife in the US now, proper 3rd world judicial system where the system favours those with money, and the ultimate price to pay is with lives.

 

Our system might not be flawless, but if I was facing a court I'd much rather it be in western Europe than anywhere else.in the world.

Totally agree, tho as a white collar job,  middle aged white guy, the US system is weighted in my favour 

[FoxesDeb]

13 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Totally agree, tho as a white collar job,  middle aged white guy, the US system is weighted in my favour 

Agreed, until you have any number of circumstances which are perfectly innocent but a corrupt and/or stupid official gives evidence for the prosecution and a jury finds you guilty. Decades before an appeal is even granted let alone heard. Just one of the ways the US is a fvcked up place. 

 

Thankfully this is s pretty rare occurrence for us, not so much over there. 

[surrifox]

I’d be surprised if the legal system attaches a great deal of credence to anything that evil piece of 💩 comes up with 

[ClaphamFox]

16 minutes ago, surrifox said:

I’d be surprised if the legal system attaches a great deal of credence to anything that evil piece of 💩 comes up with 

It’s a shame that so much of the discussion of Stone’s guilt or innocence seems to focus on Bellfield, who is probably a red herring. I’d prefer it to focus on the total absence of any credible evidence against Stone.

Edited 7 October 2023 by ClaphamFox

[Parafox]

5 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I simply cannot understand those who advocate for the death penalty when it is so obvious that innocent people will and do die as a result of it being part of any justice system, simply because the system we have is not and probably never will be perfect.

 

I don't think there is or ever will be a perfect way of dealing with "justice" where extreme criminal acts are involved. As a society, I think we rightly feel retribution should be dealt to those who do wrong, but on what level? 

 

Is cutting a thief's hand off the right way of preventing shoplifting?

 

Is killing a killer the way to stop killing?

 

Doesn't seem to have worked so far. And if society gets it wrong, an innocent person potentially loses their life.

 

I think this has been a topic debated  elsewhere in this forum.

 

 

[ozleicester]

8 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

Colin Stagg. Barry Bulsara (or whatever he called himself) ....even the pitchfork murders they tried to pin on another lad 

 

Stitch ups absolutely rife in the 70s 80s and 90s 

00s 10s 20s

[nnfox]

There's no doubt that the investigation would be different if it were to happen today with the advancement in forensic and digital investigations.

 

For me, it's an interesting case.  I'm not convinced that Bellfield is anything other than a narcissistic liar.

 

The circumstantial evidence against Stone is intriguing, but it is just circumstantial.  The guy does sound like an utter scumbag, but that alone doesn't make him a murderer.

 

The evidence gathered by the police was presented to the CPS who were satisfied that it should be presented at court and then a jury found him guilty. Twice.  We have to place faith in the justice system.

 

He protests his innocence but his defence of "I don't remember what I was doing" is a bit crap.  He's been found guilty and he needs to prove his innocence to gain his freedom. Given the circumstantial evidence in the case, it's probably appropriate that the boot lace is forensically examined.  That might prove his innocence, but it might not.  

 

[leicsmac]

7 hours ago, Parafox said:

 

I don't think there is or ever will be a perfect way of dealing with "justice" where extreme criminal acts are involved. As a society, I think we rightly feel retribution should be dealt to those who do wrong, but on what level? 

 

Is cutting a thief's hand off the right way of preventing shoplifting?

 

Is killing a killer the way to stop killing?

 

Doesn't seem to have worked so far. And if society gets it wrong, an innocent person potentially loses their life.

 

I think this has been a topic debated  elsewhere in this forum.

 

 

It has, and there's been some interesting points put forward about it too.

 

I do still think that the logical conclusion that advocating for the death penalty is accepting the death of innocent people as a corollary is pretty clear and obvious, though.

[ClaphamFox]

30 minutes ago, nnfox said:

There's no doubt that the investigation would be different if it were to happen today with the advancement in forensic and digital investigations.

 

For me, it's an interesting case.  I'm not convinced that Bellfield is anything other than a narcissistic liar.

 

The circumstantial evidence against Stone is intriguing, but it is just circumstantial.  The guy does sound like an utter scumbag, but that alone doesn't make him a murderer.

 

The evidence gathered by the police was presented to the CPS who were satisfied that it should be presented at court and then a jury found him guilty. Twice.  We have to place faith in the justice system.

 

He protests his innocence but his defence of "I don't remember what I was doing" is a bit crap.  He's been found guilty and he needs to prove his innocence to gain his freedom. Given the circumstantial evidence in the case, it's probably appropriate that the boot lace is forensically examined.  That might prove his innocence, but it might not.  

 

No we don’t. We really don’t. Are you familiar with the ‘evidence’ on which he was convicted? It is virtually non-existent. Do you want to share this ‘circumstantial evidence’ that you mention (and which played no part whatsoever in his conviction)? 

Edited 8 October 2023 by ClaphamFox

[nnfox]

1 minute ago, ClaphamFox said:

No we don’t. We really don’t. Are you familiar with the ‘evidence’ on which he was convicted? It is virtually non-existent.

I mean from the macro.  The justice system in the UK is pretty robust.  Perfect? No.  But it is pretty good.  The fact that it's being looked at again is testament to that - it wouldn't happen in every country.

 

As I said, the evidence is circumstantial, I get that.  Prosecution case was based on a combination of circumstances and witness testimony around his behaviour before and after the crime.  It's not exactly a slam dunk.  Defence case was "I don't remember", which doesn't really counter the prosecution case.

 

Out of interest, is your issue with the case that the CPS shouldn't have pursued the prosecution in the first place, or that the jury should have found him not guilty?

[ClaphamFox]

29 minutes ago, nnfox said:

I mean from the macro.  The justice system in the UK is pretty robust.  Perfect? No.  But it is pretty good.  The fact that it's being looked at again is testament to that - it wouldn't happen in every country.

 

As I said, the evidence is circumstantial, I get that.  Prosecution case was based on a combination of circumstances and witness testimony around his behaviour before and after the crime.  It's not exactly a slam dunk.  Defence case was "I don't remember", which doesn't really counter the prosecution case.

 

Out of interest, is your issue with the case that the CPS shouldn't have pursued the prosecution in the first place, or that the jury should have found him not guilty?

With respect, you don’t seem to be familiar with the details of the case. In his second trial, the judge told the jury that the prosecution’s entire case rested on the Damien Daley’s claim that Stone confessed to him through the pipes in their adjoining cells. Stone was convicted solely on that evidence - the judge instructed the jury to disregard everything else.

 

Michael Stone had asked to be put into solitary confinement because other prisoners were trying to trick him into saying something incriminating. Having been granted his wish, do you really believe he would then just chose to make a full confession to Daley through the pipes in his cell? It’s utterly ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that Daley is a known liar and convicted murderer and has, according to some of his associates, openly admitted that his evidence against Stone was a pack of lies.

 

That’s my problem with this case. If Stone were on trial today, Daley’s evidence would almost certainly not be admissible because cell ‘confessions’ to other prisoners are now regarded as highly unreliable. Which means there would be no conviction. Despite this, the onus is still on Stone to prove he didn’t do it. It’s insane.