Just Stop Oil

[leicsmac]

Just now, Sir Shep said:

Sure, in an ideal world but this is not that world. Oh and I'm definitely not a denier, I absolutely am on board making this world less fire more Ice (if that makes sense) but I won't sympathise with the haves who think it's ok to disrupt the have nots. 

Yeah, this world isn't ideal, but either we work on making it more ideal or the Earth does it for us - and we probably won't like the methods it uses.

 

I'm pretty sure that most people (hopefully) are on board with the overwhelming scientific consensus on this one, it's just a problem that appears to be "too big" or "too abstract" in terms of response for many and so they're not really sure how to proceed, and then they see folks like JSO doing their thing and don't see the necessity (and I wouldn't really blame them there).

 

But there are things that everyone can do, without resorting to neo-Luddism and without significantly affecting quality of life - indeed, such things may well improve life for many people going forward.

[Sir Shep]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, this world isn't ideal, but either we work on making it more ideal or the Earth does it for us - and we probably won't like the methods it uses.

 

I'm pretty sure that most people (hopefully) are on board with the overwhelming scientific consensus on this one, it's just a problem that appears to be "too big" or "too abstract" in terms of response for many and so they're not really sure how to proceed, and then they see folks like JSO doing their thing and don't see the necessity (and I wouldn't really blame them there).

 

But there are things that everyone can do, without resorting to neo-Luddism and without significantly affecting quality of life - indeed, such things may well improve life for many people going forward.

Spot on, and I obviously appreciate that you are a lot more knowledgeable in this field than I ever will be! 

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, Sir Shep said:

Spot on, and I obviously appreciate that you are a lot more knowledgeable in this field than I ever will be! 

I appreciate that mate, and I want to help other people likewise know about all of it and also know that they do have some agency and power to help out on this one and make a better future for us all.

[grobyfox1990]

24 minutes ago, Phil Bowman said:

But isn't this more a case, much like 'Defund the Police,' of an arguably poorly-chosen slogan making it too easy for people to distract attention from the very real (and perfectly justifiable) issues being raised.

 

Of course 'Let's seriously look at finding, developing and implementing ways to move away from our excessive, unsustainable and damaging reliance on products derived from oil' isn't quite as snappy, so I do understand why over-simplistic slogans are chosen...

Fair. But this isn’t a counter culture/outrageous movement like defund the police. Public consensus is very much towards the transition. Govt policy also is. These antics only serve to garner Instagram likes are solidify the positions of like minded people. I cannot compute how this group would ‘convince’ anyone of the cause.

There are so many things you can do to make a difference these days, throwing paint around and talking to anonymous faces on the internet isn’t one. Getting carbon literate is for a start 

[Sir Shep]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

I appreciate that mate, and I want to help other people likewise know about all of it and also know that they do have some agency and power to help out on this one and make a better future for us all.

Cheers, but I should say if JSO disrupt the games today and prolong the agony I'll never forgive them!!!

[LcFc_Smiv]

I'm not sure on JSO methods, nor am I probably knowledgeable enough to have an opinion. What I do know is not enough people care about their local environment let alone the world away from their doorstep. We're fortunate enough to have a lovely walk 5 mins from our house that goes onto fields and then into some woods. This morning my blood was boiling as what I can imagine was kids and families who have gone out yesterday in the sun and left all sorts of litter and other crap behind in the field, woods and even in the stream that runs through the woods. We do this walk twice a day as do many people within our village and for people to have so little care for where we live is criminal. But then I think, why would they care? What does them picking their litter up, recycling, using public transport where possible etc have to do in the grand scheme of things when you look at where the world is now, with the little action taken by government and leading businesses? The worlds ****ed.

[leicsmac]

34 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Fair. But this isn’t a counter culture/outrageous movement like defund the police. Public consensus is very much towards the transition. Govt policy also is. These antics only serve to garner Instagram likes are solidify the positions of like minded people. I cannot compute how this group would ‘convince’ anyone of the cause.

There are so many things you can do to make a difference these days, throwing paint around and talking to anonymous faces on the internet isn’t one. Getting carbon literate is for a start 

Yeah, getting literate, listening to those who are literate, and then applying pressure via the ballot box and with wallets, because this is something both markets and policymakers need to pick up the pace on, no matter how fast they're going now.

 

Here's hoping, however, that does enough fast enough.

 

25 minutes ago, LcFc_Smiv said:

I'm not sure on JSO methods, nor am I probably knowledgeable enough to have an opinion. What I do know is not enough people care about their local environment let alone the world away from their doorstep. We're fortunate enough to have a lovely walk 5 mins from our house that goes onto fields and then into some woods. This morning my blood was boiling as what I can imagine was kids and families who have gone out yesterday in the sun and left all sorts of litter and other crap behind in the field, woods and even in the stream that runs through the woods. We do this walk twice a day as do many people within our village and for people to have so little care for where we live is criminal. But then I think, why would they care? What does them picking their litter up, recycling, using public transport where possible etc have to do in the grand scheme of things when you look at where the world is now, with the little action taken by government and leading businesses? The worlds ****ed.

Yeah, I think that a good bloke well versed in economics whose opinion I value highly but doesn't post here much any more - @Kopfkino - would call that "the tragedy of the commons"; the idea that when people have a resource freely accessible and that they have no responsibility for, they're inclined to take it for granted and not look ahead. And he'd be right, too.

 

Thing is though, I'm not sure how much good having such things "enclosed" and a matter of private property does or prevents their exploitation/destruction, either, given human short-term self interest.

 

The issue is making a seemingly abstract problem seem immediate and personal, because by the time it's unequivocally both of those things, it would be too late.

Edited 28 May 2023 by leicsmac

[Phil Bowman]

24 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

But this isn’t a counter culture/outrageous movement like defund the police.

I was only comparing the two movements with regard to their names, and how they make it too easy for people to deflect attention from their cause with accusations of being dangerous and/or simplistic. To be honest, I don't know enough about either movement to discuss their core beliefs (maybe I should do something about my ignorance!).

 

28 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Public consensus is very much towards the transition.

Probably. But I suspect most people (including me tbh - more ignorance to be addressed!!) don't really have much understanding of what is needed, or indeed what is possible.

 

30 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Govt policy also is.

Hmm. I'm far from convinced that this is the case...

 

32 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

I cannot compute how this group would ‘convince’ anyone of the cause.

There are so many things you can do to make a difference these days, throwing paint around and talking to anonymous faces on the internet isn’t one.

Maybe. But they do succeed in drawing attention to the issue and prompting at least some discussion, and without that no change is ever going to happen.

 

33 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Getting carbon literate is for a start 

Couldn't agree more. And I'm planning to increase my own understanding of this whole area asap.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Phil Bowman said:

I was only comparing the two movements with regard to their names, and how they make it too easy for people to deflect attention from their cause with accusations of being dangerous and/or simplistic. To be honest, I don't know enough about either movement to discuss their core beliefs (maybe I should do something about my ignorance!).

 

Probably. But I suspect most people (including me tbh - more ignorance to be addressed!!) don't really have much understanding of what is needed, or indeed what is possible.

 

Hmm. I'm far from convinced that this is the case...

 

Maybe. But they do succeed in drawing attention to the issue and prompting at least some discussion, and without that no change is ever going to happen.

 

Couldn't agree more. And I'm planning to increase my own understanding of this whole area asap.

From what I've read there's promising steps from policymakers in various developed nations and things are starting to snowball but it simply isn't quick enough in enough places to prevent nasty things happening in the future.

 

and

 

Let me know if there's any questions you might have.

 

[Foxdiamond]

29 minutes ago, LcFc_Smiv said:

I'm not sure on JSO methods, nor am I probably knowledgeable enough to have an opinion. What I do know is not enough people care about their local environment let alone the world away from their doorstep. We're fortunate enough to have a lovely walk 5 mins from our house that goes onto fields and then into some woods. This morning my blood was boiling as what I can imagine was kids and families who have gone out yesterday in the sun and left all sorts of litter and other crap behind in the field, woods and even in the stream that runs through the woods. We do this walk twice a day as do many people within our village and for people to have so little care for where we live is criminal. But then I think, why would they care? What does them picking their litter up, recycling, using public transport where possible etc have to do in the grand scheme of things when you look at where the world is now, with the little action taken by government and leading businesses? The worlds ****ed.

I do find it depressing that so many people have so little care for the environment at even basic levels such as litter let alone the big picture 

[Phil Bowman]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Let me know if there's any questions you might have.

Ok, I'll start with an easy one!

 

While a full understanding of the whole issue is probably going to be beyond any single person - requiring as it would a thorough knowledge of science, history, economics, sociology, psychology, politics and technology (and that list is just off the top of my head; there's probably more) - is there anyone out there who you feel has produced a good general guide, based on the science, for the intelligent layman (asking for a friend, obvs, I'm not all that bright myself)?

 

Failing that, is there anything you'd recommend on particular aspects (eg: our impact on climate; climate implications; technological solutions; the politics/economics of it; accounts/assessments of what people are doing; suggestions for positive things that 'ordinary' people can do?

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Phil Bowman said:

Ok, I'll start with an easy one!

 

While a full understanding of the whole issue is probably going to be beyond any single person - requiring as it would a thorough knowledge of science, history, economics, sociology, psychology, politics and technology (and that list is just off the top of my head; there's probably more) - is there anyone out there who you feel has produced a good general guide, based on the science, for the intelligent layman (asking for a friend, obvs, I'm not all that bright myself)?

 

Failing that, is there anything you'd recommend on particular aspects (eg: our impact on climate; climate implications; technological solutions; the politics/economics of it; accounts/assessments of what people are doing; suggestions for positive things that 'ordinary' people can do?

For the layman on this topic, off the top of my head, I would recommend the superb Kurzgesagt:

 

 

 

(That asterisk is very important.)

 

These are as good a guide on the general state of things and what one person might do about them as any.

 

If there's any guidance on specific areas you'd like, please ask.

[Captain...]

1 hour ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Fair. But this isn’t a counter culture/outrageous movement like defund the police. Public consensus is very much towards the transition. Govt policy also is. These antics only serve to garner Instagram likes are solidify the positions of like minded people. I cannot compute how this group would ‘convince’ anyone of the cause.

There are so many things you can do to make a difference these days, throwing paint around and talking to anonymous faces on the internet isn’t one. Getting carbon literate is for a start 

But government policy isn't onboard with transitioning away from a oil. It is doing the opposite by seeking to provide over 100 new oil exploration licenses, going against what they agreed with the Paris climate agreement. Every bit of recycling and paper straw using and bag for lifing we do will be instantly undone by allowing for more oil drilling.

 

This is the just stop oil message, but people are not listening, which suggests it's not working, but that is what each and every protest by JSO is about. Trying to hold the government accountable to their own climate promises.

[Mike Oxlong]

Shouldn’t there also be a Just Stop Methane movement ? 

[Captain...]

2 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

Shouldn’t there also be a Just Stop Methane movement ? 

I think you need these.

 

https://www.myshreddies.com/

 

[Foxdiamond]

1 hour ago, Foxdiamond said:

I do find it depressing that so many people have so little care for the environment at even basic levels such as litter let alone the big picture 

What I find baffling is that these cretins go out of their way to visit beauty spots/countryside as they want to be there and then trash the place. Talk about sh.. the nest

[Zear0]

My own penneth worth on this is that there is a complete lack of personal accountability on the matter which is what gives me the most frustration.  I remember the engineering director of a former employer of mine describing our own business problems as being down to the individuals to fix.  "The process and governance cavalary won't appear over the hill to save the day" he said and it stuck with me as this is a similar situation to what I'm reading here.  Everyone knows what contributes to climate change and the impact it will have (and if you don't I you literally have none of my time or attention) and just assume governments are going to fix this problem.  I made a tongue in cheek comment earlier regarding Just Stop Oil protestors being top of the list of the "Which countries have you visited?" thread and I think that's a classic example.  We've got posters who, rightly, pontificatw about the existential threat to humanity via the effects of climate change, whilst having a list of 40+ countries and a desire to travel more and see the entire world.  Welcome to the top 1% of planet f**kers, I confess to being one myself and didn't post there out of personal shame!

 

I agree this needs to be led by government and we know how that will end up.  Renewable energy is currently the cheapest form of energy for grid based energy solutions and yet we offer fossil fuel companies enormous tax breaks for "investment" as they're kicking it back into the government.  Look who's hosting the next CoP summit, it's a joke.  Read this morning that since Russia invaded Ukraine, the UK has installed TWO, yes TWO, on-shore windturbines.  They literally don't care.

 

I'm a bit old fashioned and have a "world is what you make of it" perspective with respect to human behaviours on all things.  The only people who can fix the climate crisis are the consumers.  Are we willing to stop hopping on planes, driving massive cars and eating food imported from Brazil grown on former rainforest land?  The answer it seems is a strong no.

 

Now that I'm done with my self-righteous rant, I'm off on an eco holiday to see the Antarctic in a diesel powered cruise ship before flying to Costa Rica to sit in a tree house feeling smug about myself.

 

P.S Keep doing what you're doing Just Stop Oil, it's a worthy cause and it's the only way people will keep thinking about what they (not the Chinese, or the Indians, or the Americans but you) are doing to the planet.

[Phil Bowman]

2 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

The only people who can fix the climate crisis are the consumers.

Ultimately this may be true, but I'm sure there are things that governments could do to support/encourage people to make less damaging choices. For example, and off the top of my head, it doesn't have to be necessary for so many people to travel so far or so often to work, or for it to be more expensive to use public transport than to drive. And there could be real, impactful, urgent investment in both developing and implementing renewables. This kind of thing requires serious commitment at government level; it isn't something individual consumers can do.

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

My own penneth worth on this is that there is a complete lack of personal accountability on the matter which is what gives me the most frustration.  I remember the engineering director of a former employer of mine describing our own business problems as being down to the individuals to fix.  "The process and governance cavalary won't appear over the hill to save the day" he said and it stuck with me as this is a similar situation to what I'm reading here.  Everyone knows what contributes to climate change and the impact it will have (and if you don't I you literally have none of my time or attention) and just assume governments are going to fix this problem.  I made a tongue in cheek comment earlier regarding Just Stop Oil protestors being top of the list of the "Which countries have you visited?" thread and I think that's a classic example.  We've got posters who, rightly, pontificatw about the existential threat to humanity via the effects of climate change, whilst having a list of 40+ countries and a desire to travel more and see the entire world.  Welcome to the top 1% of planet f**kers, I confess to being one myself and didn't post there out of personal shame!

 

I agree this needs to be led by government and we know how that will end up.  Renewable energy is currently the cheapest form of energy for grid based energy solutions and yet we offer fossil fuel companies enormous tax breaks for "investment" as they're kicking it back into the government.  Look who's hosting the next CoP summit, it's a joke.  Read this morning that since Russia invaded Ukraine, the UK has installed TWO, yes TWO, on-shore windturbines.  They literally don't care.

 

I'm a bit old fashioned and have a "world is what you make of it" perspective with respect to human behaviours on all things.  The only people who can fix the climate crisis are the consumers.  Are we willing to stop hopping on planes, driving massive cars and eating food imported from Brazil grown on former rainforest land?  The answer it seems is a strong no.

 

Now that I'm done with my self-righteous rant, I'm off on an eco holiday to see the Antarctic in a diesel powered cruise ship before flying to Costa Rica to sit in a tree house feeling smug about myself.

 

P.S Keep doing what you're doing Just Stop Oil, it's a worthy cause and it's the only way people will keep thinking about what they (not the Chinese, or the Indians, or the Americans but you) are doing to the planet.

Yep, that's me.

 

However, and I apologise for repeating myself, a solution to sorting all this out doesn't have to result in people doing less flying or a reduction in general quality of life, which is why I'm not personally massively ashamed about it and more to the point get annoyed when folks put it up as a point of high relevance (it is of relevance, but with reference to drawing down emissions, just not nearly so highly as other factors). It is possible to transition to a civilisation emitting far less carbon while doing all of the cool stuff we can do today, it is a matter of transitioning to it - quickly. While reusing and recycling always helps in terms of direct waste, we honestly don't need to go in for self-flagellation and stopping getting that wonderful Brazilian coffee, we just need to change the way we source and deliver it.

 

The points being made about individuals making a difference are entirely salient, though. Vote at the ballot box and with your wallets, and pressure both governments and companies to affect those changes.

[Zear0]

Just now, leicsmac said:

Yep, that's me.

 

However, and I apologise for repeating myself, a solution to sorting all this out doesn't have to result in people doing less flying or a reduction in general quality of life, which is why I'm not personally massively ashamed about it and more to the point get annoyed when folks put it up as a point of high relevance (it is of relevance, but with reference to drawing down emissions, just not nearly so highly as other factors). It is possible to transition to a civilisation emitting far less carbon while doing all of the cool stuff we can do today, it is a matter of transitioning to it - quickly. While reusing and recycling always helps in terms of direct waste, we honestly don't need to go in for self-flagellation and stopping getting that wonderful Brazilian coffee, we just need to change the way we source and deliver it.

 

The points being made about individuals making a difference are entirely salient, though. Vote at the ballot box and with your wallets, and pressure both governments and companies to affect those changes.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/28/labour-confirms-plans-to-block-all-new-north-sea-oil-and-gas-projects

 

Perfect timing to read that 

[grobyfox1990]

1 hour ago, Captain... said:

But government policy isn't onboard with transitioning away from a oil. It is doing the opposite by seeking to provide over 100 new oil exploration licenses, going against what they agreed with the Paris climate agreement. Every bit of recycling and paper straw using and bag for lifing we do will be instantly undone by allowing for more oil drilling.

 

This is the just stop oil message, but people are not listening, which suggests it's not working, but that is what each and every protest by JSO is about. Trying to hold the government accountable to their own climate promises.

True and undeniable, what you say is a fact. But hence I keep talking about transition. Is that a lot less oil than has been extracted in the past few decades? Our energy mix is surely a lot more ‘green’ now than ever before, with plans to increase it further? Yes I know all easily google-able but the only thing I can google right now is Bournemouth’s previous form at goodison park. We can’t get to 0 oil overnight 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, grobyfox1990 said:

True and undeniable, what you say is a fact. But hence I keep talking about transition. Is that a lot less oil than has been extracted in the past few decades? Our energy mix is surely a lot more ‘green’ now than ever before, with plans to increase it further? Yes I know all easily google-able but the only thing I can google right now is Bournemouth’s previous form at goodison park. We can’t get to 0 oil overnight 

It's a matter of smooth transition otherwise everything likely goes nuts and the transition doesn't happen anyway, yes. And that is happening.

 

But that shit, once again, has to happen faster.

 

NB. Bournemouth have good form at Goodison.

[fox_up_north]

16 hours ago, Bilo said:

The really frustrating thing is that their critically important message is lost in their absurd methods. Few interlocutors and commentators focus on what they are fighting for in favour of how they're doing it.

 

The spokespeople they have are PR kryptonite, their methods alienate them to any sensible person and the public persona of those partaking in protests are the embodiment of 1970s stereotypes straight out of The Young Ones. 

This is, sadly, my feeling. 

 

I 100% support their message and cause (along with Extinction Rebellion and Insulate Britain) and also think their methods have merit, in small doses.

However, unlike Black Civil Rights or Women's suffrage, they don't have that other side; a Martin Luther King. They need someone who can go on TV and smartly explain their cause. Someone who can say "here is why your bills are so expensive and here are the people who are to blame."

[grobyfox1990]

31 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

It's a matter of smooth transition otherwise everything likely goes nuts and the transition doesn't happen anyway, yes. And that is happening.

 

But that shit, once again, has to happen faster.

 

NB. Bournemouth have good form at Goodison.

Agreed and agreed with both your points, it’s not all bad. Enough of this for now, I knew I’d regret not going (flying!!!) back home for todays game, the excitement is ramping up!!

[Captain...]

2 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

This is, sadly, my feeling. 

 

I 100% support their message and cause (along with Extinction Rebellion and Insulate Britain) and also think their methods have merit, in small doses.

However, unlike Black Civil Rights or Women's suffrage, they don't have that other side; a Martin Luther King. They need someone who can go on TV and smartly explain their cause. Someone who can say "here is why your bills are so expensive and here are the people who are to blame."

They don't even have a Swampy.