Guest Sideshow Faes Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 8 hours ago, dbtcity said: The point being you need much more quality when it comes to strength in depth when competing in the prem alongside European football…. Like I said having 4/5 cbs all good enough to be starting competing for 2 spots isn’t going to be happening in the championship imo, JJ will cover for/compete with Doyle and Riccy P so it will be 2 from Vestergaard, Faes, Coady and THB if we sign him plus we’ve still got Souttar and Ben Nelson…. So going back to my original post I’d be surprised to see THB coming in as a replacement for Castagne I would’ve thought we’d have to shift 1 or 2 cbs from the list above if we were to bring him in It's cover for 3 centre backs. Doyle is not playing as a full back.
dbtcity Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 28 minutes ago, Sideshow Faes said: It's cover for 3 centre backs. Doyle is not playing as a full back. I’d say he’s playing more like a full back than a cb in this set up…. You’re also not going to put a cb like Vestergaard where Doyle plays as he gets up and down the field I don’t think I can be any clearer in saying it! You disagree that’s cool but JJ is adequate cover for Doyle as I keep saying
Guest Sideshow Faes Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 Just now, dbtcity said: I’d say he’s playing more like a full back than a cb in this set up…. You’re also not going to put a cb like Vestergaard where Doyle plays as he gets up and down the field I don’t think I can be any clearer in saying it! You disagree that’s cool but JJ is adequate cover for Doyle as I keep saying I do disagree. Fair play you have your opinion as you must, but with Ricardo in midfield 95% of the time we operate very clearly with Faes at RCB, Vestergaard at CB and Doyle at LCB. It's exactly the same system as Man City last season where either Ake or Akanji played that role while Walker or Stones played primarily in midfield. Yet to see any evidence of JJ being considered for that position.
Happy Fox Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 I would imagine a lot of the Manchester City youth team players would love to play under Enzo. Taylor Harwood-Bellis would be an immense signing for us, but be prepared for him to go back to Manchester City in 2-3 season's time.
lcfc278 Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 11 minutes ago, Sideshow Faes said: I do disagree. Fair play you have your opinion as you must, but with Ricardo in midfield 95% of the time we operate very clearly with Faes at RCB, Vestergaard at CB and Doyle at LCB. It's exactly the same system as Man City last season where either Ake or Akanji played that role while Walker or Stones played primarily in midfield. Yet to see any evidence of JJ being considered for that position. Did you see the ball Doyle pinged in for McAteer's second? Was basically in the LM/LW position 1
Finnegan Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 12 minutes ago, dbtcity said: I’d say he’s playing more like a full back than a cb in this set up…. You’re also not going to put a cb like Vestergaard where Doyle plays as he gets up and down the field I don’t think I can be any clearer in saying it! You disagree that’s cool but JJ is adequate cover for Doyle as I keep saying 9 minutes ago, Sideshow Faes said: I do disagree. Fair play you have your opinion as you must, but with Ricardo in midfield 95% of the time we operate very clearly with Faes at RCB, Vestergaard at CB and Doyle at LCB. It's exactly the same system as Man City last season where either Ake or Akanji played that role while Walker or Stones played primarily in midfield. Yet to see any evidence of JJ being considered for that position. There isn't really an obvious term for what Doyle is currently doing (that I'm aware of?) Maybe something archaic from Ye Olden Days when football formations were completely alien to a generic 442. You want to stop thinking about "positions" though and think about skillsets. Who do we have that is, crucially left footed (and people seriously keep overlooking that) who has both the physical and technical qualities of Callum Doyle? The answer is, we don't. His position is the most glaring weakness on an LCFC depth chart. Even if Justin were left footed, he doesn't have Doyle's skill set in the slightest. He's pacey, he can dribble a bit, he has a great engine but he's not got anywhere near Doyle's passing range. Besides, Maresca has already stated quite clearly that the club are working on coaching JJ to be able to do the Ricardo role and has said he's making alright progress at it. So, no, he doesn't see him as backup to Doyle. I'm honestly not sure why people keep saying it, to be honest. Who watches Doyle playing for us this year and, of all the people, thinks "yeah JJ could do that?" Even Maresca himself identified Kristiansen as the player most likely to step in there and now we've got rid of him to Bologna. 3
FrankieADZ Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 6 minutes ago, Happy Fox said: I would imagine a lot of the Manchester City youth team players would love to play under Enzo. Taylor Harwood-Bellis would be an immense signing for us, but be prepared for him to go back to Manchester City in 2-3 season's time. im not sure, i know Doyle has only joined on loan but i think hes got more chance to than THB
Guest Sideshow Faes Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 6 minutes ago, lcfc278 said: Did you see the ball Doyle pinged in for McAteer's second? Was basically in the LM/LW position He's allowed to move. But unless you think we're playing 2 at the back he's clearly a CB playing LCB.
Popular Post Finnegan Posted 28 August 2023 Popular Post Posted 28 August 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Happy Fox said: I would imagine a lot of the Manchester City youth team players would love to play under Enzo. Taylor Harwood-Bellis would be an immense signing for us, but be prepared for him to go back to Manchester City in 2-3 season's time. 7 minutes ago, FrankieADZ said: im not sure, i know Doyle has only joined on loan but i think hes got more chance to than THB Man City have just spent another 77m bringing in a ready-made centre back (who himself is only 21 by the way.) Doyle or THB would have to turn out to be one of the best centre backs in the world for them to really get in to Man City's side. As much as Man City invested heavily in overhauling their academy and trying to churn out La Masia style stars, they don't use them. Other than Phil Foden, who's really made much impact there from their academy as an ACTUAL first team regular? Maybe, MAYBE, if he plays his cards right Cole Palmer could go the same way. But for all of their focus on doing it the right way, they really just use their academy for the same reason Chelsea do - a cash cow to offset signings like Gvaridol. Edited 28 August 2023 by Finnegan 11
dbtcity Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 3 minutes ago, Finnegan said: There isn't really an obvious term for what Doyle is currently doing (that I'm aware of?) Maybe something archaic from Ye Olden Days when football formations were completely alien to a generic 442. You want to stop thinking about "positions" though and think about skillsets. Who do we have that is, crucially left footed (and people seriously keep overlooking that) who has both the physical and technical qualities of Callum Doyle? The answer is, we don't. His position is the most glaring weakness on an LCFC depth chart. Even if Justin were left footed, he doesn't have Doyle's skill set in the slightest. He's pacey, he can dribble a bit, he has a great engine but he's not got anywhere near Doyle's passing range. Besides, Maresca has already stated quite clearly that the club are working on coaching JJ to be able to do the Ricardo role and has said he's making alright progress at it. So, no, he doesn't see him as backup to Doyle. I'm honestly not sure why people keep saying it, to be honest. Who watches Doyle playing for us this year and, of all the people, thinks "yeah JJ could do that?" Even Maresca himself identified Kristiansen as the player most likely to step in there and now we've got rid of him to Bologna. Again circling back the point where this whole debate started in we’re not going to go out and bring some1 in of the skill set of doyle to just sit on the bench in the championship… of all the positions you have it’s rare to see a defence rotated and I’m yet to see Enzo being any different (granted we’re only 5 games in) my point originally was THB would probably be brought in at the expense of a cb leaving as having a squad that already has 5 cbs plus JJ then adding another is excessive
lcfc278 Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 3 minutes ago, Sideshow Faes said: He's allowed to move. But unless you think we're playing 2 at the back he's clearly a CB playing LCB. Yes he is a CB playing at LCB in terms of his position on the team sheet. However the guy you disagreed with said he's playing more like a full back at LCB which I agree with. When we're in possession he's playing more of a LWB. Either way I'm not complaining it's fascinating along with what Ricardo's doing - exciting times. 1
FrankieADZ Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 3 minutes ago, Finnegan said: Man City have just spent another 77m bringing in a ready-made centre back (who himself is only 21 by the way.) Doyle or THB would have to turn out to be one of the best centre backs in the world for them to really get in to Man City's side. As much as Man City invested heavily in overhauling their academy and trying to churn out La Masia style stars, they don't use them. Other than Phil Foden, who's really made much impact there from their academy as an ACTUAL first team regular? Maybe, MAYBE, if he plays his cards right Cole Palmer could go the same way. But for all of their focus on doing it the right way, they really just use their academy for the same reason Chelsea do - a cash cow to offset signings like Gvaridol. good point there,its a shame really, city and chelsea have alot of talented players and no real pathway to the first team, in another way its a good cash cow for them
Finnegan Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, dbtcity said: Again circling back the point where this whole debate started in we’re not going to go out and bring some1 in of the skill set of doyle to just sit on the bench in the championship… of all the positions you have it’s rare to see a defence rotated and I’m yet to see Enzo being any different (granted we’re only 5 games in) my point originally was THB would probably be brought in at the expense of a cb leaving as having a squad that already has 5 cbs plus JJ then adding another is excessive Quite frankly, no. Doyle, Coady, Faes, Vestergaard, THB would be a completely normal collection of players to have to play what is ultimately a back 3. Especially with Coady and Vestergaard both in their 30s and the former ALREADY having one significant injury this season. Without wanting to contradict what I just said, ultimately Doyle IS still a CB, he's just what people started to call a "ball player centre back" a few years ago. Yes, he wanders down the left a little bit more than a conventional CB in a 342/352 but come on now. Essentially you want two players for every position. Vestergaard is cover for Coady, THB and Faes would compete for the spot on the right. Doyle is just Doyle. We'd obviously put a right footed player there in a pinch if we had to, it just wouldn't be the manager's preference. Edited 28 August 2023 by Finnegan
Lesta2014 Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 Still struggle to see how we sign him and nobody in the prem does?
Finnegan Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 1 minute ago, Lesta2014 said: Still struggle to see how we sign him and nobody in the prem does? He's only just turned 21, he's never kicked a ball in the Premier League before and even in the club he was on loan at last year opted for their "other" loan CB (Beyer) and Dara O'Shea instead. Look, the kid has promise, but FoxesTalk is going wildly over the top here. He's currently just a Championship centre back, he'd be a decent signing, he's not the second coming of Franz Beckenbauer. 1
happy85 Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 6 minutes ago, Lesta2014 said: Still struggle to see how we sign him and nobody in the prem does? Enzo has a big part to play He near enough guarantee to start
Scotch Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 36 minutes ago, Sideshow Faes said: I do disagree. Fair play you have your opinion as you must, but with Ricardo in midfield 95% of the time we operate very clearly with Faes at RCB, Vestergaard at CB and Doyle at LCB. It's exactly the same system as Man City last season where either Ake or Akanji played that role while Walker or Stones played primarily in midfield. Yet to see any evidence of JJ being considered for that position. On the ball, yes but OFF the ball (which is when a defenders job really becomes essential) Ricardo slips back into RB and Doyle is in the LB position of a back 4. 1
urban.spaceman Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 7 minutes ago, Finnegan said: He's only just turned 21, he's never kicked a ball in the Premier League before and even in the club he was on loan at last year opted for their "other" loan CB (Beyer) and Dara O'Shea instead. Look, the kid has promise, but FoxesTalk is going wildly over the top here. He's currently just a Championship centre back, he'd be a decent signing, he's not the second coming of Franz Beckenbauer. Right in the middle of posting that he could be the second coming of Franz Beckenbauer. Thanks. 1
dbtcity Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Finnegan said: Quite frankly, no. Doyle, Coady, Faes, Vestergaard, THB would be a completely normal collection of players to have to play what is ultimately a back 3. Especially with Coady and Vestergaard both in their 30s and the former ALREADY having one significant injury this season. Without wanting to contradict what I just said, ultimately Doyle IS still a CB, he's just what people started to call a "ball player centre back" a few years ago. Yes, he wanders down the left a little bit more than a conventional CB in a 342/352 but come on now. Essentially you want two players for every position. Vestergaard is cover for Coady, THB and Faes would compete for the spot on the right. Doyle is just Doyle. We'd obviously put a right footed player there in a pinch if we had to, it just wouldn't be the manager's preference. Don’t get me wrong I’d love for us to a) sign THB and b) have 2 quality players for every position I just don’t think finances allow it which is why for me players like Nelson, McAteer, Stolarczyk and potentially Alves, Braybrooke could be so important… we can’t be going out giving big wages to 5th/6th choice CBs… either way I’m not in charge of finances and I fully back what we’re doing at the moment so if Enzo wants 10 cbs get the fvckers in Edited 28 August 2023 by dbtcity
Finnegan Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 3 minutes ago, Scotch said: On the ball, yes but OFF the ball (which is when a defenders job really becomes essential) Ricardo slips back into RB and Doyle is in the LB position of a back 4. Well okay, sure, but then so do Manuel Akanji and Nathan Ake and if you had to describe them both in simplified terms what position would you assign to them? Look, like I said, people really need to get over this this hyper fixation on "positions." Maresca's vision is obviously a lot more fluid than people are used to, especially in our defensive third of the pitch. But the skill set we want from Doyle's position is clearly one of what is typically considered a centre back who is good with his feet. It's not like we want, need or expect Doyle to be bombing down the wing making overlapping runs and whipping in crosses is it?
Finnegan Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 Just now, dbtcity said: I just don’t think finances allow it Because we're about to sell Castagne for 15m, Wilf for probably 12-15m and possibly still have Daka & Soumare to sell for something similar between them? And what else do we really need to spend it on? Keeping in mind we can still have another loan signing too? How much do you think THB is really going to cost? We can almost certainly get him for the Castagne money alone. I think we've banked enough from the Barnes and Maddison sales (and keep in mind the SIGNIFICANT cost of wage-bill reduction with some of these high earners going) that anything we make from selling these guys late in the window we can probably reinvest. 1
Lillehamring Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 50 minutes ago, Sideshow Faes said: I do disagree. Fair play you have your opinion as you must, but with Ricardo in midfield 95% of the time we operate very clearly with Faes at RCB, Vestergaard at CB and Doyle at LCB. It's exactly the same system as Man City last season where either Ake or Akanji played that role while Walker or Stones played primarily in midfield. Yet to see any evidence of JJ being considered for that position. This is true - but at the same time he gets forward into advanced positions that a CB would not, so there are times when we are pressing in attack when he does operate as a RB. Such has been our domination at times, that we almost play with a back 2! As for JJ, he played as RCB against Burton, with Hamza taking the ricardo role but from LB. So i don't think Maresca considers JJ as good going forward as Doyle, JJ basic played the Faes role, with faes shifting into the coady role, Doyle remaining at LB) THB seems to play the Faes spot, so maybe he will be sold?
Merchant_Banker Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 I am not sure what THB gains from another season with a promotion chasing Championship team given his time at Burnley. If he wants to progress he should be looking for a Prem loan. Unless he is looking for a permanent move to a team he expects to be in the Premier League
MGLCFC Posted 28 August 2023 Posted 28 August 2023 3 minutes ago, Merchant_Banker said: I am not sure what THB gains from another season with a promotion chasing Championship team given his time at Burnley. If he wants to progress he should be looking for a Prem loan. Unless he is looking for a permanent move to a team he expects to be in the Premier League This
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