The "do they mean us?" thread pt 4

[nnfox]

I have some sympathy with Marti here.  He's not the first manager to point at a poor culture within the club which seems to be the lasting legacy of Rodgers. 

 

Successive managers really have had their hands tied and I think Marti had the worst of it.  A squad devoid of quality and motivation and no meaningful way to get new personnel through the door.  You can say that a poor workman blames his tools, but this wasn't a single workman, this was a series of professional football guys who couldn't get a tune out of the resources available for 3 or 4 years.

 

In hindsight, he could have brought some if the youngsters through more quickly, but it's a risky strategy that can easily backfire in more than one way.  I'm still not convinced many of them are properly ready to make the transition and there would have been no guarantee of results.  It's pretty clear that Marti was given the objective of getting promotion - I'm not convinced our academy is good enough to create a team capable of getting out of the Championship, it's an incredibly difficult thing to do.

 

If financial constraints weren't as they were then we could have transfer listed Winks, Vesty, Daka, Ayew and Mavididi and brought in two or three quality players that would have assisted in taking some of the pressure off the youngsters coming through.

 

In short, the manager takes the blame again for failings of the club's hierarchy and the players they have allowed to coast.

[RoboFox]

32 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

It the director of football's owner's job to lead the culture and create a high-performance environment.

Fixed.

[RoboFox]

28 minutes ago, nnfox said:

I have some sympathy with Marti here.  He's not the first manager to point at a poor culture within the club which seems to be the lasting legacy of Rodgers. 

 

Successive managers really have had their hands tied and I think Marti had the worst of it.  A squad devoid of quality and motivation and no meaningful way to get new personnel through the door.  You can say that a poor workman blames his tools, but this wasn't a single workman, this was a series of professional football guys who couldn't get a tune out of the resources available for 3 or 4 years.

 

In hindsight, he could have brought some if the youngsters through more quickly, but it's a risky strategy that can easily backfire in more than one way.  I'm still not convinced many of them are properly ready to make the transition and there would have been no guarantee of results.  It's pretty clear that Marti was given the objective of getting promotion - I'm not convinced our academy is good enough to create a team capable of getting out of the Championship, it's an incredibly difficult thing to do.

 

If financial constraints weren't as they were then we could have transfer listed Winks, Vesty, Daka, Ayew and Mavididi and brought in two or three quality players that would have assisted in taking some of the pressure off the youngsters coming through.

 

In short, the manager takes the blame again for failings of the club's hierarchy and the players they have allowed to coast.

Rodgers left over three years ago. 

 

It's the continuing legacy of Aiyawatt Srivaddhanaprabha. 

[The Doctor]

29 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

Rodgers left over three years ago. 

 

It's the continuing legacy of Aiyawatt Srivaddhanaprabha. 

I mean, yes it's on him, rudkin and glover that we've not changed tack since Rodgers left, but the dickheads only recruitment policy started with Brendan, and that's a common theme with him as manager, tanking recruitment wherever he goes

[Fox92]

3 hours ago, nnfox said:

I have some sympathy with Marti here.  He's not the first manager to point at a poor culture within the club which seems to be the lasting legacy of Rodgers. 

 

Successive managers really have had their hands tied and I think Marti had the worst of it.  A squad devoid of quality and motivation and no meaningful way to get new personnel through the door.  You can say that a poor workman blames his tools, but this wasn't a single workman, this was a series of professional football guys who couldn't get a tune out of the resources available for 3 or 4 years.

 

In hindsight, he could have brought some if the youngsters through more quickly, but it's a risky strategy that can easily backfire in more than one way.  I'm still not convinced many of them are properly ready to make the transition and there would have been no guarantee of results.  It's pretty clear that Marti was given the objective of getting promotion - I'm not convinced our academy is good enough to create a team capable of getting out of the Championship, it's an incredibly difficult thing to do.

 

If financial constraints weren't as they were then we could have transfer listed Winks, Vesty, Daka, Ayew and Mavididi and brought in two or three quality players that would have assisted in taking some of the pressure off the youngsters coming through.

 

In short, the manager takes the blame again for failings of the club's hierarchy and the players they have allowed to coast.

We have appointed bad managers, Marti was one of them. Maresca was the last decent manager we had and he was able to get something out of these players.

[nnfox]

14 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

We have appointed bad managers, Marti was one of them. Maresca was the last decent manager we had and he was able to get something out of these players.

Decent managers exist but we are now fishing in a pond where such things are extremely rare.  Our track record of bringing in decent managers over recent years is woeful.  Our recent record makes Maresca look like a lucky anomaly.  He came to us with basically no track record and any way in which you look at it, he was a bit of a punt.  You win some and you lose some.  Maresca worked out, but the football was turgid at times and he had the best squad we've had in the last three years.

 

Make no mistake, as things stand, it's going to take more than a manager to get positive results.

[splinterdream]

Did anyone see any of the League 1 play-offs at the weekend? From what i saw the standard is terrible, it seems to me to get out of that league, its less about needing a master tactician, but more a motivator.

I think clubs should be looking towards that. Warnock would be brilliant if hes interested, wont command a long contract and can motivate and navigate this type of football

[Dan]

Load of bluster from Cifuentes I'm afraid. He was never tough enough. Caved in to the old guard. Performances were awful, barely a single decent 90 minutes under him, nearly every win carried by a wondergoal from Fatawu or James. Nice bloke but he was terrible.

[CrazyKopCorner]

7 hours ago, nnfox said:

I have some sympathy with Marti here.  He's not the first manager to point at a poor culture within the club which seems to be the lasting legacy of Rodgers. 

 

Successive managers really have had their hands tied and I think Marti had the worst of it.  A squad devoid of quality and motivation and no meaningful way to get new personnel through the door.  You can say that a poor workman blames his tools, but this wasn't a single workman, this was a series of professional football guys who couldn't get a tune out of the resources available for 3 or 4 years.

 

In hindsight, he could have brought some if the youngsters through more quickly, but it's a risky strategy that can easily backfire in more than one way.  I'm still not convinced many of them are properly ready to make the transition and there would have been no guarantee of results.  It's pretty clear that Marti was given the objective of getting promotion - I'm not convinced our academy is good enough to create a team capable of getting out of the Championship, it's an incredibly difficult thing to do.

 

If financial constraints weren't as they were then we could have transfer listed Winks, Vesty, Daka, Ayew and Mavididi and brought in two or three quality players that would have assisted in taking some of the pressure off the youngsters coming through.

 

In short, the manager takes the blame again for failings of the club's hierarchy and the players they have allowed to coast.

I agree.

 

Fed up of commentators, pundits et banging on about our 'quality.. 

 

There was absolutely **** all there. 

 

Take out Abdul, James and ............ well that's it. (Abdul only on a day he fancies it too) 

 

Absolutely abysmal the rest of them. Seriously shite like could have got someone out of the stand and you'd not have known the difference with a few of them 

[StanSP]

5 hours ago, splinterdream said:

Did anyone see any of the League 1 play-offs at the weekend? From what i saw the standard is terrible, it seems to me to get out of that league, its less about needing a master tactician, but more a motivator.

I think clubs should be looking towards that. Warnock would be brilliant if hes interested, wont command a long contract and can motivate and navigate this type of football

I didn't watch them, but have seen a few games over the season. Passing out from the back will fail miserably. Time to bring in a new manager that can find a good blend of physicality but also attacking football.

 

The way we've played last few seasons, if replicated next season, will have us in bottom half of League One easy.

[Samilktray]

Can’t believe there’s serious shouts for Neil Warnock tbh

[Stadt]

Cifuentes benefitted from a side with reasonable morale too, we started off fine but the insipid performances started on his watch.

 

If he was a good coach and not an anachronistic hyper-short passing merchant we’d have stayed up easily. Even if he could manage a game whilst leading we’d comfortably have stayed up.

 

Wrexham, Portsmouth, Boro H plus Bristol City and Cov A were abysmal, it’s like he tie them to concede at half time. Fat clown 

[splinterdream]

1 hour ago, Samilktray said:

Can’t believe there’s serious shouts for Neil Warnock tbh

The bloke out manoeuvred maresca, he knows how to manage.  He would be happy with a 1 year contract, he knows how to manage young and experienced players and he'd motivate. People laughed when Hodgson went back to palace and he did a cracking job

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

1 hour ago, Samilktray said:

Can’t believe there’s serious shouts for Neil Warnock tbh

 

It's a disgrace people are even engaging with the notion of the Rumour Mill tbh – we all know it doesn't officially start until we get the Leicesterpool starting pistol

 

"Wonder if Arry could be tempted knows the league as been there done that got the t shirt been out of work a bit but could be tempted"

[LCFCCKEANO]

44 minutes ago, Stadt said:

Cifuentes benefitted from a side with reasonable morale too, we started off fine but the insipid performances started on his watch.

 

If he was a good coach and not an anachronistic hyper-short passing merchant we’d have stayed up easily. Even if he could manage a game whilst leading we’d comfortably have stayed up.

 

Wrexham, Portsmouth, Boro H plus Bristol City and Cov A were abysmal, it’s like he tie them to concede at half time. Fat clown 

Agree with this. If we waited another week and got Rohl (or just paid for him) think we end up mid table. TBH I think with Corberan in the prem we tussle to survive, we have just made repeatedly awful appointments since Dean Smith. Only one worth his money was Enzo, do think that is where we should be headed again, coaches from elite academies/top clubs

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

1 hour ago, splinterdream said:

The bloke out manoeuvred maresca, he knows how to manage. 

 

They've only gone against each other once and Maresca beat him, so I'm not sure what you're on about here?

[Samilktray]

10 hours ago, splinterdream said:

The bloke out manoeuvred maresca, he knows how to manage.  He would be happy with a 1 year contract, he knows how to manage young and experienced players and he'd motivate. People laughed when Hodgson went back to palace and he did a cracking job

Harsh to compare Hodgson to Warnock, Hodgson is a much better manager. You sound a bit silly

[Fox92]

19 hours ago, nnfox said:

Decent managers exist but we are now fishing in a pond where such things are extremely rare.  Our track record of bringing in decent managers over recent years is woeful.  Our recent record makes Maresca look like a lucky anomaly.  He came to us with basically no track record and any way in which you look at it, he was a bit of a punt.  You win some and you lose some.  Maresca worked out, but the football was turgid at times and he had the best squad we've had in the last three years.

 

Make no mistake, as things stand, it's going to take more than a manager to get positive results.

My point being though is that we're hiring bad managers. 

 

You posted about sympathising with Marti. How? He pointed at poor club culture but then let it continue? He was just another in the line of shocking managers we have appointed. You also refer to players being allowed to coast - it's the manager(s) that allow this.

 

I don't feel sorry for these managers, they're terrible, the only thing I do "feel" for them is that they shouldn't have been anywhere near our club and the hierarchy are to blame for hiring them.

 

If we get the next appointment right then of course our results will change. We saw under Pearson how he came in and changed the culture (twice). We need to get out of the habit of appointing bad managers (although with this hierocracy I don't think we will).

 

[ClaphamFox]

34 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

My point being though is that we're hiring bad managers. 

 

You posted about sympathising with Marti. How? He pointed at poor club culture but then let it continue? He was just another in the line of shocking managers we have appointed. You also refer to players being allowed to coast - it's the manager(s) that allow this.

 

I don't feel sorry for these managers, they're terrible, the only thing I do "feel" for them is that they shouldn't have been anywhere near our club and the hierarchy are to blame for hiring them.

 

If we get the next appointment right then of course our results will change. We saw under Pearson how he came in and changed the culture (twice). We need to get out of the habit of appointing bad managers (although with this hierocracy I don't think we will).

 

It runs far deeper than the managers. In clubs like Brighton, Bournemouth, Brentford etc —all smaller than us but performing much better—the culture is established by the owners and runs throughout the club, not just the playing squad. Managers come and go, but the values, vision and work ethic remains the same whoever is in charge. In our case, there is deep cultural malaise—every manager that comes has to deal with a total absence of leadership from Top, incompetence from Rudkin, and apathy and low morale across the club. An elite manager like Enzo Maresca might have enough about them to temporarily override these things through sheer force of personality, but such managers ae very rare and don't stick around for long at clubs of our size.

 

Yes, the managers we have recruited have been poor. But if you think that's been the main problem then I'm afraid you simply haven't been paying attention.

[CosbehFox]

To be fair Marti twice bombed the twats out. His error was introducing them back in September after an August where we rode our luck but we had some youthful talent playing. Then he ****ed them off post Sheff United loss at home and we had a decent December. January the squad was crying out for a couple of additions on 1st January and we well & truly crashed off a cliff 
 

We’ve done this multiple managers now. By the time, someone gets handle on who’s toxic, they are let go rather than a bit of faith being given. It’s a complete shirk of responsibility by Rudkin and in the process actually shows his lack of confidence in his and Top’s managerial choices. 

[CosbehFox]

53 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

My point being though is that we're hiring bad managers. 

 

You posted about sympathising with Marti. How? He pointed at poor club culture but then let it continue? He was just another in the line of shocking managers we have appointed. You also refer to players being allowed to coast - it's the manager(s) that allow this.

 

I don't feel sorry for these managers, they're terrible, the only thing I do "feel" for them is that they shouldn't have been anywhere near our club and the hierarchy are to blame for hiring them.

 

If we get the next appointment right then of course our results will change. We saw under Pearson how he came in and changed the culture (twice). We need to get out of the habit of appointing bad managers (although with this hierocracy I don't think we will).

 

Pearson didn’t immediately bomb them out though didn’t he? He was playing Beckford, Danns, Mills and a few others for a good few months. He had to wait out transfer windows where he could replace them. You argue that’s the same as what’s was occurring with Faes, Winks and the two strikers for example. 
 

I love Nige but it was never perfect with him. There were long spells of really bad results and it was really a case of building a squad over 3 seasons which allowed it all happen, 

 

I don’t think any of the managers showed really anything outstanding but we aren’t even giving anyone the chance to rebuild over two transfer windows. We aren’t allowing anyone to really build. It’s always short term fixs

[Tommy Fresh]

9 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

Pearson didn’t immediately bomb them out though didn’t he? He was playing Beckford, Danns, Mills and a few others for a good few months. He had to wait out transfer windows where he could replace them. You argue that’s the same as what’s was occurring with Faes, Winks and the two strikers for example. 
 

I love Nige but it was never perfect with him. There were long spells of really bad results and it was really a case of building a squad over 3 seasons which allowed it all happen, 

 

I don’t think any of the managers showed really anything outstanding but we aren’t even giving anyone the chance to rebuild over two transfer windows. We aren’t allowing anyone to really build. It’s always short term fixs

Long spells of bad results were usually tolerated though because he'd actually shown he was capable of doing better. 

 

I'd also argue the League One season, the Kermogant Championship year and the Championship title year were three very good seasons in context

Edited 12 May by Tommy Fresh

[Dan]

This lot are another level from Beckford, Danns etc..

 

Winks for example should've never played another minute after spritz gate. Incredibly tinpot from us that be did.

[Fox92]

2 hours ago, CosbehFox said:

Pearson didn’t immediately bomb them out though didn’t he? He was playing Beckford, Danns, Mills and a few others for a good few months. He had to wait out transfer windows where he could replace them. You argue that’s the same as what’s was occurring with Faes, Winks and the two strikers for example. 
 

I love Nige but it was never perfect with him. There were long spells of really bad results and it was really a case of building a squad over 3 seasons which allowed it all happen, 

 

I don’t think any of the managers showed really anything outstanding but we aren’t even giving anyone the chance to rebuild over two transfer windows. We aren’t allowing anyone to really build. It’s always short term fixs

That's a good point although the first time Pearson was here he inherited players that didn't want to be here and they moved on. I think managers need to show they can be trusted to rebuild etc. Our recruitment has been shocking and people point to Rudkin as to blame for that so no manager is going to succeed then?

 

I would also argue that this group of players are much worse in terms of attitude, from the outside looking in anyway.

 

Edited 12 May by Fox92

[Fox92]

3 hours ago, ClaphamFox said:

It runs far deeper than the managers. In clubs like Brighton, Bournemouth, Brentford etc —all smaller than us but performing much better—the culture is established by the owners and runs throughout the club, not just the playing squad. Managers come and go, but the values, vision and work ethic remains the same whoever is in charge. In our case, there is deep cultural malaise—every manager that comes has to deal with a total absence of leadership from Top, incompetence from Rudkin, and apathy and low morale across the club. An elite manager like Enzo Maresca might have enough about them to temporarily override these things through sheer force of personality, but such managers ae very rare and don't stick around for long at clubs of our size.

 

Yes, the managers we have recruited have been poor. But if you think that's been the main problem then I'm afraid you simply haven't been paying attention.

I don't think the manager is the main problem, and never said that, debate was about Cifuentes specifically. Our club is a mess but people dismiss these terrible managers. There are badly run clubs that have been successful because of a manager (Robins at Cov is probably the best example). Cooper/Van Nistelrooy/Cifuentes all terrible managers regardless which is what my argument was. I'm fully aware the club is a mess, I think anybody is aware given we've fallen from the top tier to the third.