Formula 1 2024

[st albans fox]

Apparently going so long on the same tyres may have worn away 1.5kg + of rubber 

 

if you’re one stopping then have to load more fuel to compensate 

this is incorrect- they drain the fuel before final weighing.  So the team would have had to add weight to the car to compensate for a one stop strategy. 

Edited 28 July 2024 by st albans fox

[PhillippaT]

Gutted for Russell...  Hopefully the rest of the season after the break will be just as competitive...

[LiberalFox]

That has to be a result of excessive tyre wear. Feels extremely harsh and I'd not be unhappy to see it reversed. 

[StanSP]

Can they appeal it? 

 

 

Nonetheless, the whole season now feels much more enjoyable to watch because or the McLaren and Mercedes added competitiveness. 

 

Hope they keep it up after the summer break. 

[SouthStandUpperTier]

10 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Can they appeal it? 

Merc have accepted it. 

 

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12526/13186145/belgian-gp-lewis-hamilton-inherits-win-as-george-russell-disqualified-for-mercedes-car-being-underweight

 

Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff, speaking before stewards had made their decision, said Russell's unplanned one-stop strategy had been the likely cause of the issue.

 

The fact Russell's tyres were more worn than those who had done two stops meant that by the end of the race they would have had less rubber on them, and consequently weighed less.

 

"I think it was the one-stop… you expect lots of rubber, maybe more, but it's no excuse," Wolff said, while also admitting the incident would be a "massive blow" for Russell.

 

Following the FIA's announcement of the disqualification, Wolff released a statement confirming Mercedes would not appeal and apologising to Russell.

 

"We have to take our disqualification on the chin. We have clearly made a mistake and need to ensure we learn from it," he said.

 

"We will go away, evaluate what happened and understand what went wrong. To lose a one-two is frustrating and we can only apologise to George, who drove such a strong race."

[grobyfox1990]

Another very good race 

[trabuch]

Fantastic circuit. 

[isaidno]

Shame that Verstappen dominated at the start of the season and built up a lead because it's so competitive now. 4 teams fighting for the win.  

[Raj]

Something like that must be devastating for drivers.

Great race for Russel to.mske the call for 1 stop, you could tell Lewus was p1ssed off he didnt do the same, but got the win by default

[Legend_in_blue]

[Asha]

Merc blatantly cheating again then. 

 

Throw them out the championship. ****ing disgrace.

[shen]

Can't quite understand the rules here. What does Russell's car being too light imply? That they stripped the car of some weight? Toto Wolff seems to think the tires was a factor, but that seems a bit silly that the weight of the tires should matter at all? 

The way Wolff takes the blame suggests it was somehow avoidable, but what exactly does he mean by that?

[StanSP]

10 minutes ago, shen said:

Can't quite understand the rules here. What does Russell's car being too light imply? That they stripped the car of some weight? Toto Wolff seems to think the tires was a factor, but that seems a bit silly that the weight of the tires should matter at all? 

The way Wolff takes the blame suggests it was somehow avoidable, but what exactly does he mean by that?

A lighter car I presume can move quicker? Instead of a heavier one being pulled along etc? 

 

Reading on Autosport, lighter tyres means easier corners, so to speak. Russell had gone so long on one set of tyres that they lost more rubber. Comparatively, Hamilton had fresher tyres meaning he and more rubber on them. 

 

It sounds like Mercedes made a genuine error and it wasn't anything intentional or malicious. 

[Zear0]

15 minutes ago, shen said:

Can't quite understand the rules here. What does Russell's car being too light imply? That they stripped the car of some weight? Toto Wolff seems to think the tires was a factor, but that seems a bit silly that the weight of the tires should matter at all? 

The way Wolff takes the blame suggests it was somehow avoidable, but what exactly does he mean by that?

Car + driver (why they hop on the scales after a race) has to be at least a certain weight (800kg ish I think) as the regulations demand they weight that for safety reasons.

 

George staying out for so long meant the tyres had degraded so much, that the amount of rubber lost dropped the car below the limit. Was avoidable if they'd had either put new tyres on, or put more weight in the car at the start. Nobody ever one stops here so was a bit of an unforeseen issue.

 

You don't see it as often now, but you used to see drivers driving on the shitty parts of the tracks after the race has finished to collect as much debris onto the tyres as possible to increase their weight. 

[shen]

2 minutes ago, StanSP said:

A lighter car I presume can move quicker? Instead of a heavier one being pulled along etc? 

 

Reading on Autosport, lighter tyres means easier corners, so to speak. Russell had gone so long on one set of tyres that they lost more rubber. Comparatively, Hamilton had fresher tyres meaning he and more rubber on them. 

 

It sounds like Mercedes made a genuine error and it wasn't anything intentional or malicious. 

I can understand the physics, but it seems bizarre if the tire weight (which is identical for all teams when fresh) can be reason for disqualification. Why is the car weighed with tires is what I'm asking? It would get rid of all the 'gamesmanship' of picking up rubber during the in lap (which must give an advantage to the winner).

[shen]

5 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

Car + driver (why they hop on the scales after a race) has to be at least a certain weight (800kg ish I think) as the regulations demand they weight that for safety reasons.

 

George staying out for so long meant the tyres had degraded so much, that the amount of rubber lost dropped the car below the limit. Was avoidable if they'd had either put new tyres on, or put more weight in the car at the start. Nobody ever one stops here so was a bit of an unforeseen issue.

 

You don't see it as often now, but you used to see drivers driving on the shitty parts of the tracks after the race has finished to collect as much debris onto the tyres as possible to increase their weight. 

Yeah so Wolff is blaming himself/the team for not calculating that a one stop would likely mean the weight would be an issue. 

It's all a bit arbitrary though.

[The Horse's Mouth]

8 minutes ago, shen said:

I can understand the physics, but it seems bizarre if the tire weight (which is identical for all teams when fresh) can be reason for disqualification. Why is the car weighed with tires is what I'm asking? It would get rid of all the 'gamesmanship' of picking up rubber during the in lap (which must give an advantage to the winner).

What’s a car without a tyre? Tyre management is a huge part of the sport, and considering George was 1.5kg under and won by a whisker he clearly gained an unfair advantage. 

[StanSP]

39 minutes ago, shen said:

I can understand the physics, but it seems bizarre if the tire weight (which is identical for all teams when fresh) can be reason for disqualification. Why is the car weighed with tires is what I'm asking? It would get rid of all the 'gamesmanship' of picking up rubber during the in lap (which must give an advantage to the winner).

You've mentioned part of the issue - identical when fresh.

 

So when a driver wears down the tyre so much, they've gained an unfair advantage because they lose more weight with more tyre use. Compared to other drivers who replace their tyres throughout the race, fairly, which means their cars are heavier with fresher tyres. 

 

 

[potter3]

9 minutes ago, StanSP said:

You've mentioned part of the issue - identical when fresh.

 

So when a driver wears down the tyre so much, they've gained an unfair advantage because they lose more weight with more tyre use. Compared to other drivers who replace their tyres throughout the race, fairly, which means their cars are heavier with fresher tyres. 

 

 

Why is it unfair? The tradeoff is running for more of the race on degraded tyres with less grip and the increased risk of puncture.

[StanSP]

8 minutes ago, potter3 said:

Why is it unfair? The tradeoff is running for more of the race on degraded tyres with less grip and the increased risk of puncture.

But if the tyre degradation isn't that significant or impactful on the race, then the unfair advantage is the tyre weighing less and less as each lap goes on. So the trade-off isn't there as much for this track. 

[Zear0]

9 minutes ago, potter3 said:

Why is it unfair? The tradeoff is running for more of the race on degraded tyres with less grip and the increased risk of puncture.

FIA safety stuff I'd presume. They don't want cars running around with tyres worn down to their threads. George showed that there was little reduction in pace at the cost of having a tyre go pop. 

[grobyfox1990]

2 hours ago, Zear0 said:

Car + driver (why they hop on the scales after a race) has to be at least a certain weight (800kg ish I think) as the regulations demand they weight that for safety reasons.

 

George staying out for so long meant the tyres had degraded so much, that the amount of rubber lost dropped the car below the limit. Was avoidable if they'd had either put new tyres on, or put more weight in the car at the start. Nobody ever one stops here so was a bit of an unforeseen issue.

 

You don't see it as often now, but you used to see drivers driving on the shitty parts of the tracks after the race has finished to collect as much debris onto the tyres as possible to increase their weight. 

You still see that, drivers go off the line during the in lap to pick up rubber, there is no in lap at Belgium so drivers did not have the chance to do that. They came straight into the pit lane.

Not sure it is quite as simple as tyres being worn out, given the way Merc have so easily accepted blame. I recall a race in Silverstone in 2020 (I think) when everyone was on the tyre limit, and on the last lap a few blew out, and 3 or 4 cars limped to the line on their rims

[SouthStandUpperTier]

Sainz to Williams for 2025

 

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/13186156/carlos-sainz-williams-sign-outgoing-ferrari-driver-for-2025-formula-1-season-to-be-alex-albons-team-mate

[isaidno]

Williams have a strong driver line up next season.  Hopefully they have a decent car too.

[shen]

6 hours ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

What’s a car without a tyre? Tyre management is a huge part of the sport, and considering George was 1.5kg under and won by a whisker he clearly gained an unfair advantage. 

I understand it's a big part and I don't contest the decision. But I never imagined wearing tyres down to such a degree would prove advantageous. The dropoff in grip and performance has always been massive - up until yesterday.

Russell wasn't the only one to pull off a 1 stopper, so you'd think others would be caught with too low weight as well.

 

The reason I ask about the weight rule is because it's surely to make sure the chassis and mechanical components (i.e. what the manufacturer controls) meets the same minimum requirements. So if a car manages to perform even with seemingly terrible tyres, why should that be more punishable than having a chassis with less drag or an engine with more performance, especially if that is a conscious design/strategy choice?

 

Out of curiosity, are there also rules for fuel burning efficiency? I.e. could the starting weight of two cars with identical chassises/drivers be different because of fuel load assuming one engine is more efficient than the other?