General News

[Lionator]

4 hours ago, leicsmac said:

That didn't happen in the Cold War (KAL 007 was a case of miscommunication and mistaken identity, not malice), there's no real reason for it to happen now. No need to argue conspiracy when there's not even a shred of evidence for it.

I mean they’re cutting up cables in the Baltic, trying to blow up DHL planes, using chemical weapons on UK soil, it would hardly be a surprise would it? 

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, Lionator said:

I mean they’re cutting up cables in the Baltic, trying to blow up DHL planes, using chemical weapons on UK soil, it would hardly be a surprise would it? 

There's a world of difference between deniable attacks on infrastructure or targetted assassination attempts of dissidents and the deliberate killing of nearly two hundred civilians in a passenger jet.

 

I'm sorry, I'm not getting there - the Russians aren't moustache-twirling villains who slaughter innocent people purely for its own sake, as opposed to Western interests as they are, they remain human and rational actors and they take life for specific reasons for specific gain - there is no gain from doing this.

Edited 29 December 2024 by leicsmac

[Lionator]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

There's a world of difference between deniable attacks on infrastructure or targetted assassination attempts of dissidents and the deliberate killing of nearly two hundred civilians in a passenger jet.

 

I'm sorry, I'm not getting there - the Russians aren't moustache-twirling villains who slaughter innocent people purely for its own sake, as opposed to Western interests as they are, they remain human and rational actors and they take life for specific reasons for specific gain - there is no gain from doing this.

What have they been doing in Ukraine for three years? I can’t believe that people still try and downplay Russians actions. This is a country that wants to destroy Europe, the only thing stopping them is American nukes. 

[Paninistickers]

4 minutes ago, Lionator said:

This is a country that wants to destroy Europe

Nah, I'm going with @leicsmac take over this. 

 

Putin craves respect and craves being a world statesman as leader of the largest country and the dominant influence in the old soviet states. 

 

As macabre as his Ukraine campaign is, he probably sees it much in the way the west  viewed overseeing the deaths of hundreds of thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan. 

[leicsmac]

30 minutes ago, Lionator said:

What have they been doing in Ukraine for three years? I can’t believe that people still try and downplay Russians actions. This is a country that wants to destroy Europe, the only thing stopping them is American nukes. 

Waging war for specific reasons for specific gain, as @Paninistickers also alludes to above.

 

Yes, their leadership are bad hombres, that's obvious, but instigating a South Korean plane crash gives them nothing politically, so there's no reason for them to do it.

[Parafox]

Seems to me that the Korean plane was a victim of the Russian air defences, in genuine error.

 

 

[leicsmac]

Just now, Parafox said:

Seems to me that the Korean plane was a victim of the Russian air defences, in genuine error.

 

 

The Azerbaijani one, do you mean?

[bovril]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Waging war for specific reasons for specific gain, as @Paninistickers also alludes to above.

 

Yes, their leadership are bad hombres, that's obvious, but instigating a South Korean plane crash gives them nothing politically, so there's no reason for them to do it.

I think in the next few years there's a good chance Russia either carries out or encourages a terrorist group to carry out an attack on European infrastructure or transport that kills a lot of people. But yes I think it's unlikely they had any input here especially as the crash seems to have basically been caused by a wall very stupidly built at the end of the runway. 

[ian__marshall]

9 hours ago, leicsmac said:

To protect the surroundings from takeoff backblast, looking at the map.

 

Such a wall being involved like this is practically unheard of in the last few decades.

 

Apparently they had a missed approach before making the attempt that ended like this, but who knows? The flight recorder has been recovered, so I guess in time people will know.

 

Would explain the reason for the wall as BBC are reporting that the plane was granted authority to land in the opposite direction. 

 

Looking at the video footage what does seem odd is the speed the plane is travelling at across the tarmac. Either it touched down towards the end of the runway, the pilot hadn't engaged systems to slow the plane, or there was a catastrophic failure of said systems. However, it seems unlikely that all of systems would fail at the same time unless there was a serious electrical fault. 

 

Tragic series of events regardless and my thoughts are with the families who have lost loved ones. 

[Parafox]

7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

The Azerbaijani one, do you mean?

Yes.

 

Thanks.  

 

Korean one is either a tragic accident or a tragic failure of the aircraft.

Edited 29 December 2024 by Parafox

[SpacedX]

5 minutes ago, ian__marshall said:

Would explain the reason for the wall as BBC are reporting that the plane was granted authority to land in the opposite direction. 

 

Looking at the video footage what does seem odd is the speed the plane is travelling at across the tarmac. Either it touched down towards the end of the runway, the pilot hadn't engaged systems to slow the plane, or there was a catastrophic failure of said systems. However, it seems unlikely that all of systems would fail at the same time unless there was a serious electrical fault. 

 

Tragic series of events regardless and my thoughts are with the families who have lost loved ones. 

Hard to say for certain, but it looks like the thrust reversers were deployed. 

 

Reports about a bird strike are unsubstantiated although there is a flame from the engine on approach captured by MBC TV footage. One of the surviving members of the cabin crew reports that they heard an explosion from the right hand side engine shortly before landing. I think you are correct that for some reason, the aircraft landed way down range. 

 

The plane itself is a Boeing 737 - 800 that was formerly delivered to and in the service of Ryan Air from 2009 and left the airline in 2016, subsequently acquired by Jeju Air in 2017. 

[leicsmac]

15 minutes ago, bovril said:

I think in the next few years there's a good chance Russia either carries out or encourages a terrorist group to carry out an attack on European infrastructure or transport that kills a lot of people. But yes I think it's unlikely they had any input here especially as the crash seems to have basically been caused by a wall very stupidly built at the end of the runway. 

Yeah, agreed.

 

WRT the wall though, if that's not there, the plane goes straight into a low density residential area - that could have been even worse.

 

I can see why the wall was there and it may, in this case, actually have prevented more deaths.

 

 

15 minutes ago, ian__marshall said:

Would explain the reason for the wall as BBC are reporting that the plane was granted authority to land in the opposite direction. 

 

Looking at the video footage what does seem odd is the speed the plane is travelling at across the tarmac. Either it touched down towards the end of the runway, the pilot hadn't engaged systems to slow the plane, or there was a catastrophic failure of said systems. However, it seems unlikely that all of systems would fail at the same time unless there was a serious electrical fault. 

 

Tragic series of events regardless and my thoughts are with the families who have lost loved ones. 

As @SpacedX said above, it does look like the plane landed way downrange -  whatever it was caused a situation that both required immediate landing, no chance for any go around and with limited systems, hence the touchdown halfway down the runway with no landing gear.

 

We'll only really know why when the black boxes have been analysed.

[Paninistickers]

7 minutes ago, SpacedX said:

thrust reversers were deployed. 

They were. Yet the flaps weren't configured for landing. And no manual deployment of the landing gear (doors were closed, so wasn't as if they had tried and the gear jammed)  Extremely odd. 

 

A pilot youtuber I watched earlier had wondered aloud if there may have been a mix of hydraulic failure and work overload in the cockpit. 

 

 

[leicsmac]

Just now, Paninistickers said:

They were. Yet the flaps weren't configured for landing. And no manual deployment of the landing gear (doors were closed, so wasn't as if they had tried and the gear jammed)  Extremely odd. 

 

A pilot youtuber I watched earlier had wondered aloud if there may have been a mix of hydraulic failure and work overload in the cockpit. 

 

 

For it to not be down it's either catastrophic failure, neglect or a mixture of both, yes.

[Tommy G]

I work in the aerospace industry and thankfully these kind of things don’t happen very often. Firstly condolences to all involved.

 

Likely, without studying what’s happened in detail is a series of events - it’s never just one issue when a commercial airliner goes down, it’s almost 99.9% certain it’s probably a chain of 4 or 5 issues.

 

Daft to point fingers at Boeing, yes they are in a crisis commercially but this is their flagship short haul aircraft that’s been in service for a cpl of decades and there are probably c5,000 of these planes in the air at any one time. 
 

Tragic 

Edited 29 December 2024 by Tommy G

[Guest Bilo]

Jimmy Carter has passed away at the age of 100.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/dec/29/jimmy-carter-dead-longest-lived-us-president

 

 

[Super_horns]

22 minutes ago, Bilo said:

Jimmy Carter has passed away at the age of 100.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/dec/29/jimmy-carter-dead-longest-lived-us-president

 

 

Nice in a way he made 100 but what a life.

American President and a big time award winner (Nobel peace prize) 

[Guest Bilo]

5 minutes ago, Super_horns said:

Nice in a way he made 100 but what a life.

American President and a big time award winner (Nobel peace prize) 

He was a remarkable man. A difficult presidency, but his post-presidential career was amazing. He seemed to have been respected by all sides of politics.

[davieG]

3 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Waging war for specific reasons for specific gain, as @Paninistickers also alludes to above.

 

Yes, their leadership are bad hombres, that's obvious, but instigating a South Korean plane crash gives them nothing politically, so there's no reason for them to do it.

I’m inclined to agree but maybe as a favour to North Korea after all they are fighting for the Russians. Just a thought  

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, davieG said:

I’m inclined to agree but maybe as a favour to North Korea after all they are fighting for the Russians. Just a thought  

I don't see that either because:

 

- the NK's want control of the peninsula and the SK citizenry subservient, not dead, which means again that something like this does nothing for them politically

- if they really wanted to do it, then the NK's could do something like this themselves

 

but fair enough.

 

Again, naturally the aims of such nations and those in the West are not aligned, but that doesn't mean they're automatically Stupid Evil (more emphasis on the first word there). I'm not seeing any kind of payoff in this being a deliberate act, so it's almost certainly a dreadful accident.

[Dunge]

1 hour ago, davieG said:

I’m inclined to agree but maybe as a favour to North Korea after all they are fighting for the Russians. Just a thought  

Worth noting that China doesn’t want that kind of nonsense either. They’re already worried about the relationship between Putin & Kim.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Re: Korean air disaster - are we ruling out suicidal pilot? I'd assume co-pilot and navigator could take control in said event.

 

If an experienced pilot knew their landing gear wasn't down, surely attempting something like Chelsey Sullenberger did on the Hudson would have been better?

[Zear0]

Looks like a pilot landing in a bit of a flap combined with the landing gear failure to me. Not sure why we're already diving down the suicidal pilot/Kim Jong Un route tbh. 

[leicsmac]

44 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

Looks like a pilot landing in a bit of a flap combined with the landing gear failure to me. Not sure why we're already diving down the suicidal pilot/Kim Jong Un route tbh. 

... because apparently every piece of SK news in western countries, even if its the latest KakaoTalk update, has to be analysed from the point of view of the noisy neighbours, as if SK isn't a fully developed and reasonably peaceful nation state with internal matters much more pressing than NK.

 

It's lazy analysis and frustrating to see for someone who has spent some time there and knows most of the time the locals simply don't give a shit (for good reason) about Oop North.

Edited 30 December 2024 by leicsmac

[Super_horns]

Quieter New Year in Edinburgh .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgm9d7v1jvlo