Ruud out - has to go

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

The football we play isn’t awful like it was under cooper the issue is the players we have are the same awful ones we had under cooper and because of the injuries they’re actually worse. We play okay football at times which in itself is a miracle imo as the players playing it are absolutely honking.

[Chrysalis]

17 minutes ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

The football we play isn’t awful like it was under cooper the issue is the players we have are the same awful ones we had under cooper and because of the injuries they’re actually worse. We play okay football at times which in itself is a miracle imo as the players playing it are absolutely honking.

Whats more important, attractive football or results?  Please dont say both as they are clearly in conflict.

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

Course results but we were facing more shots than any team by a mile and had someone super human in goal keeping us in games and then we were scoring with our only shot and somehow getting points, added to a lot of in game luck as well. That was never going to be sustainable even without the injuries, i can’t see in any dimension how cooper would have got more points in these last games if his tactics were to face 30 shots and have 2 shots and nick a point because it simply wasn’t sustainable. The anti cooper should in no way be confused for pro Ruud mind, yeah we play slightly nicer football but teams are battering us at a canter so who knows what the answer is, I think there isn’t one, the players are simply abysmal.

[Chelmofox]

4 minutes ago, Chrysalis said:

Whats more important, attractive football or results?  Please dont say both as they are clearly in conflict.

When we were getting points everyone was complaining that the football was terrible and we were massively exceeding our XG. Its like when things went wrong under Brendan - you could see it in the performances even when we were still able to get points. We were massively clinical and Mads was saving our arses.

 

There were times under Cooper where our goals scored massively exceeded out stats, and lots of us were pointing out this wasn't sustainable. Its now caught up with us.

Edited 19 January by Chelmofox

[Crinklyfox]

No manager has a magic wand.  To call for a managers head at such an early stage isn't supported by me as he hasn't had time to bring in the players he wants.  Changing managers now is unlikely to have a positive effect, the weakness in the squad is apparent to see.

[whoareyaaa]

We should have just got Corberan at least he had a coaching team and a lot more experience in England as coach / manager

Edited 19 January by whoareyaaa

[fox_up_north]

I think it's a multi pronged set of issues.

 

1 - the squad is about 16th/17th when everyone is fit

 

2 - we have injuries to key players

 

3 - the summer transfer window was a bit of a car crash

 

4 - RVN probably isn't going to have the coaching staff or the transfer funds to do what he needs

 

5 - RVN is still new

 

My feeling is we were going down, from day 1. Cooper was a very bad appointment. Jury is still out on RVN because I expected this run of results. 

[inckley fox]

10 minutes ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

The football we play isn’t awful like it was under cooper the issue is the players we have are the same awful ones we had under cooper and because of the injuries they’re actually worse. We play okay football at times which in itself is a miracle imo as the players playing it are absolutely honking.

When interest came in for Enzo, the club looked at our form in the second half of last season, together with our resources for the close season, and clearly decided that our best bet was to become a hard-to-beat team of scrappers. Cooper seemed like a reasonable appointment to achieve those ends, but the problem was that everything had been built for a very different kind of team. Players had bought into the 'idea', as Enzo called it, and it was a hard-sell to say 'okay, now we have to forget all of that'.

 

But having not followed through with the 'idea', they also failed to see through the Plan B. They reacted to the dressing room discontent from players who were always going to get mauled if they tried to play like a poor man's Man City. They reacted to fans who either felt a personal repulsion to Cooper from Day One or who had unrealistic expectations about what to expect from the team. Perhaps they even needed to, because it looked as if there had been a club-wide rejection of Cooper's ideas, and that therefore it was never going to work.

 

But nothing has got better. We've had more possession against bigger teams which gives the false impression at times that we're more in control of games, but it seems clearer and clearer to me that we were always going to need to buy into the idea of being a dogged, nasty, relentless team of spoilers in order to scrap for survival. We just rejected that notion as any sort of necessity, and as such now we've become an opponent's dream. It's bordering on hopeless.

 

Of course, I don't think Cooper is a particularly good manager, nor have I seen enough to know Ruud is a particularly bad manager. And I think the mess behind the scenes as regards finances and poor recruitment has created a nightmarish working environment for a boss. But what we're seeing on the field now is just the consequence of players, fans and club management failing to understand how a squad comprised of players who aren't really good enough for this level can become competitive.

 

As for the club as a whole, for a long time I've felt that Top simply needs to recognise the state of things. Whether Rudkin is the head of the serpent that needs removing or not, a thorough restructuring - even now - with an admission that things need to be done differently and built properly over time would go a long way. People will accept that it might not be an instant bounce-back, that there'll be short-term pain before things get back on track, and accept that maybe we need to be recruiting players for next year and beyond rather than another raft of desperate signings designed for little more than the next few months. You can still sell that to our fans.

 

That said, I agree with people who believe that our success had more to do with Pearson's team than with wild investment or football-savvy from those at the top, and I obviously agree that Vichai was a more accomplished leader than his far less experienced son. But people want to like Top and they'll back him if he shows willingness to embrace real change.

 

The Rudkin Out thing has grown so loud because people just want to see evidence that people who have been very slow on the uptake are finally learning. His sacking - whether it's the root of our woes or not - would indicate that we were actually acting, and understood the gravity of the situation. But at some point, to get fans back on board, you're going to have to show that you're willing to learn from this catalogue of ****-ups.

[Matt]

1 hour ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

The football we play isn’t awful like it was under cooper the issue is the players we have are the same awful ones we had under cooper and because of the injuries they’re actually worse. We play okay football at times which in itself is a miracle imo as the players playing it are absolutely honking.

When did they introduce a bonus system for playing well?

 

I assume the points get totted up and added to totals at the end of season? Gee, I hope we scrape enough 'Playing well points' together.

[Verumex]

So no-one else noticing that the run of bad form comes immediately after both Ndidi and Hermansen get injured? 

 

We had a run of bad form last year too around this time. I wonder what happened then...

 

Oh yeah, Ndidi was injured. 

 

Almost like there's a direct pattern and cause and effect there, that has absolutely nothing to do with the manager. 

 

Everyone here is delusional if they think that the manager is the weak link.

[Number 6]

You can't turn a tortoise into a racehorse, but you can turn it into a fast tortoise. I'm not convinced Ruud has done this, though I would like to see how we'd fare with Mads and Ndidi available to him. 

[Kasey Keller]

How we aren’t majorly cut adrift is beyond me 

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

11 minutes ago, Matt said:

When did they introduce a bonus system for playing well?

 

I assume the points get totted up and added to totals at the end of season? Gee, I hope we scrape enough 'Playing well points' together.

I’d be more than happy to play absolutely turgid football and pick up points, I think people are missing the point of my post. Just because we were playing turgid football and picking up points with cooper it was not going to carry on. You can’t pick 26 on a roulette wheel every spin and just assume it will keep coming in because you hit the jackpot twice in a row. That’s the only analogy I can think of, we were literally facing over 30 shots a game with a near super human in goal and scoring the odd screamer to nick points. This would not have carried on, it was as unlikely as me playing drums in the Beatles. We were going down with cooper and are still going down with Ruud. The players aren’t good enough to get enough points no matter what style of play we adopt.

[SecretPro]

15 minutes ago, Matt said:

When did they introduce a bonus system for playing well?

 

I assume the points get totted up and added to totals at the end of season? Gee, I hope we scrape enough 'Playing well points' together.

I might be mistaken, but wasn't it you that was struggling to ever like the football we played under Enzo because it was 'dull'? 

[filbertway]

4 minutes ago, Verumex said:

So no-one else noticing that the run of bad form comes immediately after both Ndidi and Hermansen get injured? 

 

We had a run of bad form last year too around this time. I wonder what happened then...

 

Oh yeah, Ndidi was injured. 

 

Almost like there's a direct pattern and cause and effect there, that has absolutely nothing to do with the manager. 

 

Everyone here is delusional if they think that the manager is the weak link.

I think you make a fair point with regards to the squad, but RVN is doing himself no favours. It appears to most that he's weakening an already weak hand with his decision making.

 

It's far too early and too much of a cluster **** to be able to fairly judge Ruud in my opinion, but he's making some very questionable choices atm.

 

Seems like he's gonna get next to no backing from Rudkin to improve the squad. It's all very flat atm and any shoots of hope seem to be getting squashed with every passing match.

[Matt]

16 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

I might be mistaken, but wasn't it you that was struggling to ever like the football we played under Enzo because it was 'dull'? 

No, it wasn't. You're quite rightly mistaken.

 

I went on record, several times, as saying I quite enjoyed and understood what and why we were doing it under Enzo, in the Championship. I won't deny there wasn't ever any criticism, because there was, where due and I did feel it needed changing and/or adapting when we hit our flat spell, but on a whole it was fine by me. (And it wasn't just because we were winning, because I didn't enjoy it under Rodgers, at all. If that makes me entitled then so be it - It was justified in the end)

 

Edited 19 January by Matt

[TrentFox]

1 hour ago, Nolucklcfc said:

Realistically does any manager now keep us up? 

Yes! One that can organise a defence. We are currently one win away from being out of the drop zone. One win. This isn’t over. We all just feel like it is because performances and results are sooooooo poor. Start putting up

some clean sheets and the wins will happen. Appointing an inexperienced, attack-minded coach was insane. Apart from

a few strange people on here, most could see that what we’ve now got was extremely likely to happen. 

[Chelmofox]

4 minutes ago, TrentFox said:

Yes! One that can organise a defence. We are currently one win away from being out of the drop zone. One win. This isn’t over. We all just feel like it is because performances and results are sooooooo poor. Start putting up

some clean sheets and the wins will happen. Appointing an inexperienced, attack-minded coach was insane. Apart from

a few strange people on here, most could see that what we’ve now got was extremely likely to happen. 

I think work has clearly been done on the defence. 1st half Fulham had 0 shots on target and in the 2nd half they converted the 2 shots on target they had.  But, last few games the inability to score has killed us as this would have likely changed all games.

[TrentFox]

7 minutes ago, Chelmofox said:

I think work has clearly been done on the defence. 1st half Fulham had 0 shots on target and in the 2nd half they converted the 2 shots on target they had.  But, last few games the inability to score has killed us as this would have likely changed all games.

We’ve conceded 18 goals in last seven league games. We’re not going to win if we have to score three to do so. 🤷

[murphy]

4 minutes ago, TrentFox said:

We’ve conceded 18 goals in last seven league games. We’re not going to win if we have to score three to do so. 🤷

And seven weeks today since we last scored one.

[HarryDee8]

Look at forest, there the complete opposite of us. Happy to sit back and nick a 1-0 win and win with a tight defence.

 

How poxy desire to play progressive football is not working

[whoareyaaa]

18 minutes ago, TrentFox said:

Yes! One that can organise a defence. We are currently one win away from being out of the drop zone. One win. This isn’t over. We all just feel like it is because performances and results are sooooooo poor. Start putting up

some clean sheets and the wins will happen. Appointing an inexperienced, attack-minded coach was insane. Apart from

a few strange people on here, most could see that what we’ve now got was extremely likely to happen. 

We need to change the formation for starters, Winks and Soumare are not required esp with Bilal and Facundo thats like 4 Mids who do the same job

 

I'd try something like this 

 

                            Mads

           Faes Okoli Vesterguard

Justin                                            VK

           Facundo  Skipp    Bilal 

                   

               Vardy      Daka

[trooky]

41 minutes ago, filbertway said:

I think you make a fair point with regards to the squad, but RVN is doing himself no favours. It appears to most that he's weakening an already weak hand with his decision making.

 

It's far too early and too much of a cluster **** to be able to fairly judge Ruud in my opinion, but he's making some very questionable choices atm.

 

Seems like he's gonna get next to no backing from Rudkin to improve the squad. It's all very flat atm and any shoots of hope seem to be getting squashed with every passing match.

I would love to know how you think RVN is shooting himself in the foot?

 

Who is all this talent he's not playing? 

 

He makes changes when we're losing to get back in the game, its not his fault that our options are ****ing crap. 

 

Edited 19 January by trooky

[CrispinLA in Texas]

1 minute ago, whoareyaaa said:

We need to change the formation for starters, Winks and Soumare are not required esp with Bilal and Facundo thats like 4 Mids who do the same job

 

I'd try something like this 

 

                            Mads

           Faes Okoli Vesterguard

Justin                                            VK

           Facundo  Skipp    Bilal 

                   

               Vardy      Daka

Yup put Daka on from the start in a 2....which I think he was used to in his previous club...if not just get rid and sell him. What's the point of him being used as a sub with 16mins to do 🤷🏼

[5waller5]

6 hours ago, Chrysalis said:

Whats more important, attractive football or results?  Please dont say both as they are clearly in conflict.

This is the choice I never understand.
 

It’s like the only way to win is play horrible football, and yet almost every example of successful sides play “attractive” football.

 

At worst they aren’t mutually exclusive, and at best I’d argue they are linked