General News

[Lionator]

29 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

Appeasing an aggressor is not a plan, it just kicks the can down the road and encourages others to use force to get what they want.

Ok so what’s the plan? 

[foxy boxing]

12 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

India has ordered all Pakistani nationals to leave the country ????

How's Trump going to deal with increased India Pakistan tensions!.

[Salisbury Fox]

Just now, Lionator said:

Ok so what’s the plan? 

Well at this stage I would continue to arm Ukraine with everything the West has for as long as they want to stay in the fight. If only to put them in a better negotiating position as a minimum. Also, increase the economic pressure even further, their economy is far more unhealthy than they would have us believe, despite some over optimistic forecasts in the past. I appreciate that you will disagree and also that it is less likely to happen due to the current incumbent in the White House, but any other plan that I have seen rewards and emboldens Russia, and actually makes the world far less safe.
 

It’s a rarity to find a nation that is willing and/or able to resist an adversary the size of Russia and it should be considered shameful to not utilise this opportunity., not only because it’s the right thing to do for Ukraine, but also for the rest of the civilised world.

[kenny]

20 minutes ago, Lionator said:

What evidence is there that Russia is closer to collapse than Ukraine? It’s Russia that are constantly on the offensive, the Ruble has also recovered and they also have a greater depth of people to mobilise. I just don’t think it’s credible that Ukraine can ‘wait it out’, it’s a crazy gamble. 

Just guessing based upon the noises from both Russia and Ukraine. 

 

What is a crazy gamble is for the Ukrainians to surrender to Russia and wait yo be taken to the nearest gulag. I'm pleased it's not a decision I have to make, but a surrender would probably be the death of many millions more of Ukrainians over the coming years.

 

I suspect they are more scared of the offered peace than the ongoing war.

[Lionator]

4 minutes ago, kenny said:

Just guessing based upon the noises from both Russia and Ukraine. 

 

What is a crazy gamble is for the Ukrainians to surrender to Russia and wait yo be taken to the nearest gulag. I'm pleased it's not a decision I have to make, but a surrender would probably be the death of many millions more of Ukrainians over the coming years.

 

I suspect they are more scared of the offered peace than the ongoing war.

I agree there’s no right answer and politically Zelensky is probably doing the right thing for himself(?), I feel incredibly depressed by it all. 

[kenny]

6 minutes ago, Lionator said:

I agree there’s no right answer and politically Zelensky is probably doing the right thing for himself(?), I feel incredibly depressed by it all. 

Doing the right thing for his people you mean?

 

For himself is something that both Putin and Trump would suggest, as if he is only waging this war for his own self advancement.

[blabyboy]

1 hour ago, Lionator said:

I agree there’s no right answer and politically Zelensky is probably doing the right thing for himself(?), I feel incredibly depressed by it all. 

Zelensky cannot constitutionally cede any Ukrainian land without the approval of parliament, so even if he did want to "do it for himself", he could not.

 

Trump and Co. do not seem to understand this based on their current rhetoric tonight.

[RonnieTodger]

I know we shouldn’t give GB News attention but this is unreal from Eamonn “Grifter” Holmes.

 

His knees have given out because they can’t keep up with him being such a disgusting fat mess 

 

Edited 23 April by RonnieTodger

[st albans fox]

17 minutes ago, blabyboy said:

Zelensky cannot constitutionally cede any Ukrainian land without the approval of parliament, so even if he did want to "do it for himself", he could not.

 

Trump and Co. do not seem to understand this based on their current rhetoric tonight.

That’s cos they don’t seem to have any electoral control on their policies from the senate or congress. If the USA president makes decisions without anyone needing to support him then they wouldn’t appreciate that’s how proper democracies work. 

 

We are approaching a point that we could have been in at least a year ago (at least).  Crimea has effectively been gone for years. Zelenskyy knows this - he’s digging his heels in to try and keep some of the areas nearer the front line on a negotiation.. Looks like he’ll be disappointed. He gambled by not trying to make a much better deal whilst Biden was there.  He made a bad call. 

[Parafox]

13 minutes ago, RonnieTodger said:

I know we shouldn’t give GB News attention but this is unreal from Eamonn “Grifter” Holmes.

 

His knees have given out because they can’t keep up with him being such a disgusting fat mess 

 

 

Eamonn Holmes and Anne Diamond, the deepest thinkers of the journalistic profession.

 

Along with Kate Garraway and that creepy bloke from Tipping Point. 

[blabyboy]

45 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

That’s cos they don’t seem to have any electoral control on their policies from the senate or congress. If the USA president makes decisions without anyone needing to support him then they wouldn’t appreciate that’s how proper democracies work.

 

Trump doesn't seem to understand that his EO's can all be reversed by the next President, immediately, in the same way he created them. If he made the changes via the Senate and Congress it would be a lot harder for the next President to undo whatever Act is passed.

[blabyboy]

50 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

We are approaching a point that we could have been in at least a year ago (at least).  Crimea has effectively been gone for years. Zelenskyy knows this - he’s digging his heels in to try and keep some of the areas nearer the front line on a negotiation.. Looks like he’ll be disappointed. He gambled by not trying to make a much better deal whilst Biden was there.  He made a bad call. 

I disagree. It's a long game, I've always felt that Russia is the hare and Ukraine is the tortoise in this one.

[Lionator]

7 hours ago, st albans fox said:

That’s cos they don’t seem to have any electoral control on their policies from the senate or congress. If the USA president makes decisions without anyone needing to support him then they wouldn’t appreciate that’s how proper democracies work. 

 

We are approaching a point that we could have been in at least a year ago (at least).  Crimea has effectively been gone for years. Zelenskyy knows this - he’s digging his heels in to try and keep some of the areas nearer the front line on a negotiation.. Looks like he’ll be disappointed. He gambled by not trying to make a much better deal whilst Biden was there.  He made a bad call. 

General Milley said they should’ve taken a deal in October 2022, looks like he was right. 

[Lionator]

7 hours ago, Parafox said:

 

Eamonn Holmes and Anne Diamond, the deepest thinkers of the journalistic profession.

 

Along with Kate Garraway and that creepy bloke from Tipping Point. 

Patriots who are apparently concerned about the future of the country want our next generation to suffer, nothing ever makes sense.

[leicsmac]

And so we arrive at yet another situation where cynical "Might Makes Right" realpolitik threatens to destroy the lives of a great many people.

 

Would be nice for our species to grow beyond the idea, tbh.

[Salisbury Fox]

43 minutes ago, Lionator said:

General Milley said they should’ve taken a deal in October 2022, looks like he was right. 

Simply saying that they should look to negotiate in 2022 doesn’t mean a palpable deal was on the table. It also assumes that Russia would have accepted a deal on terms that were agreeable to both sides.

[st albans fox]

7 hours ago, blabyboy said:

I disagree. It's a long game, I've always felt that Russia is the hare and Ukraine is the tortoise in this one.

I don’t think the appetite for a long drawn out multi year war exists in Europe once you explain what it means if the Americans aren’t involved 

 

58 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

And so we arrive at yet another situation where cynical "Might Makes Right" realpolitik threatens to destroy the lives of a great many people.

 

Would be nice for our species to grow beyond the idea, tbh.

See above 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

I don’t think the appetite for a long drawn out multi year war exists in Europe once you explain what it means if the Americans aren’t involved 

 

See above 

I guess we'll find out.

 

It seems to be an unfortunate historical fact, however, that war often comes about in spite of people's appetite for it.

[Lionator]

21 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

Simply saying that they should look to negotiate in 2022 doesn’t mean a palpable deal was on the table. It also assumes that Russia would have accepted a deal on terms that were agreeable to both sides.

Of course, but it was the strongest position Ukraine have been in all war. Maybe Crimea was on the table at that point so I’d be wrong but ever since then there’s been a general degradation and there’s little evidence that won’t continue. Wars aren’t won on morality and I worry that’s the trap a lot of us are falling into (including myself a few months back). 

[leicsmac]

Just now, Lionator said:

Of course, but it was the strongest position Ukraine have been in all war. Maybe Crimea was on the table at that point so I’d be wrong but ever since then there’s been a general degradation and there’s little evidence that won’t continue. Wars aren’t won on morality and I worry that’s the trap a lot of us are falling into (including myself a few months back). 

Certainly not, but they do begin - and perpetuate - on the lack thereof, which means it might not be the best idea to accept such simply as a "fact of life" or somesuch.

 

Not really a comment on your take on this matter in particular, just a general observation.

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, Salisbury Fox said:

Simply saying that they should look to negotiate in 2022 doesn’t mean a palpable deal was on the table. It also assumes that Russia would have accepted a deal on terms that were agreeable to both sides.

You think that putin didn’t ‘discuss’ anything with trump whilst Biden was president 

there would have been messages back and forth somehow 

putin knew that if trump got in that he’d get a great deal 

Ukraine should have negotiated whilst Biden still had a couple years left.   They could have saved a decent chunk of what they’re going to lose if they’d accepted crimea was lost and a sizeable land bridge from Russia across se Ukraine inc the oblasts bordering Russia. (Donetsk and Luhansk). 

 

more importantly, under Biden they could have negotiated an agreement that included real American underwritten support that trump would not have felt the need to undermine several years later once there was peace. 

some on here were pointing this out as the dreaded realpolitik back then. 

Edited 24 April by st albans fox

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

You think that putin didn’t ‘discuss’ anything with trump whilst Biden was president 

there would have been messages back and forth somehow 

putin knew that if trump got in that he’d get a great deal 

Ukraine should have negotiated whilst Biden still had a couple years left.   They could have saved a decent chunk of what they’re going to lose if they’d accepted crimea was lost and a sizeable land bridge from Russia across se Ukraine inc the oblasts bordering Russia. (Donetsk and Luhansk). 

 

more importantly, under Biden they could have negotiated an agreement that included real American underwritten support that trump would not have felt the need to undermine several years later once there was peace. 

this isn’t rocket science - some on here were pointing it out as the dreaded realpolitik back then. 

Depends whether or not one thinks Putin would just have accepted stopping at those regions and, again and more widely, whether such behaviour should be considered acceptable or dismissed just as "the way things are" anyway.

 

Edit: AFAIC realpolitik should absolutely be dreaded and challenged wherever possible because, quite frankly, long term it's nothing more than death-worshipping self interest.

Edited 24 April by leicsmac

[Salisbury Fox]

3 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

You think that putin didn’t ‘discuss’ anything with trump whilst Biden was president 

there would have been messages back and forth somehow 

putin knew that if trump got in that he’d get a great deal 

Ukraine should have negotiated whilst Biden still had a couple years left.   They could have saved a decent chunk of what they’re going to lose if they’d accepted crimea was lost and a sizeable land bridge from Russia across se Ukraine inc the oblasts bordering Russia. (Donetsk and Luhansk). 

 

more importantly, under Biden they could have negotiated an agreement that included real American underwritten support that trump would not have felt the need to undermine several years later once there was peace. 

this isn’t rocket science - some on here were pointing it out as the dreaded realpolitik back then. 

You are making the assumption that Russia would have negotiated in good faith back then and a deal would be better than what could be achieved today. Another assumption you are making is that any US security guarantee would have lasted when Trump became president. Evidence doesn’t support this as the US is no longer a guarantor of security for Europe let alone thinking it would keep an agreement in place for Ukraine. 
 

And thanks for the patronising comment on rocket science, appreciated. 

[Spiritwalker]

12 hours ago, foxy boxing said:

How's Trump going to deal with increased India Pakistan tensions!.

He’ll probably have it all sorted out in a day.

[st albans fox]

21 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Depends whether or not one thinks Putin would just have accepted stopping at those regions and, again and more widely, whether such behaviour should be considered acceptable or dismissed just as "the way things are" anyway.

 

Edit: AFAIC realpolitik should absolutely be dreaded and challenged wherever possible because, quite frankly, long term it's nothing more than death-worshipping self interest.

Good point re putin - on balance I think he probably would with crimea and those 2 oblasts 

 

i wrote a long winded answer that disappeared when i viewed salisburys post and I cba to do it again.  
 

10 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

And thanks for the patronising comment on rocket science, appreciated. 

Apologies - you’ve taken that too personally but understand why and I’ve edited it accordingly 

at this point in time don’t believe that USA have reneged on their commitments to article 5?