Dan Posted 16 August Posted 16 August 1 hour ago, David Hankey said: What a fickle lot. He's only been here two minutes. Google what fickle means. 4
Popular Post RedSoxUK Posted 16 August Popular Post Posted 16 August Just now, boosmanana said: On the flip-side, what has he done to earn a negative feeling towards him in his short time here? - Dropped the number 1 for a slow 36 year old, he himself knows can't pass, and he himself likely signed. - Plays Souttar, as captain, despite interest and known injury risk, while using the same excuse (not fair on others staying) for Faes and Mavididi. - Overly commited himself to signings despite us having a technical director and chief scout. E.g we wouldn't be signing Brighton lads on loan. - Okay'd the Otchere loan, despite us having no striker, while playing BDR for at least two competitive games, who is not a striker. - Maintains a 'pass it out' style with McCarthy, Souttar, Okoli, none of which are comfortable doing it when the evidence suggests not doing that, and adapting to it when he has the tools available Want him to succeed here, really do, but he's not innocent. 5
Number 6 Posted 16 August Posted 16 August 16 minutes ago, boosmanana said: On the flip-side, what has he done to earn a negative feeling towards him in his short time here? Nothing of great note given the time frame. As per my previous posts I believe this stems from the reputation he'd built before joining us. 2
boosmanana Posted 16 August Posted 16 August 1 minute ago, RedSoxUK said: - Dropped the number 1 for a slow 36 year old, he himself knows can't pass, and he himself likely signed. - Plays Souttar, as captain, despite interest and known injury risk, while using the same excuse (not fair on others staying) for Faes and Mavididi. - Overly commited himself to signings despite us having a technical director and chief scout. E.g we wouldn't be signing Brighton lads on loan. - Okay'd the Otchere loan, despite us having no striker, while playing BDR for at least two competitive games, who is not a striker. - Maintains a 'pass it out' style with McCarthy, Souttar, Okoli, none of which are comfortable doing it when the evidence suggests not doing that, and adapting to it when he has the tools available Want him to succeed here, really do, but he's not innocent. - He dropped Stolarczyk who's also horrendous with the ball at his feet. Whilst presumably signed as 3rd choice, stylistically at least, Ravizzoli is probably the most suited keeper that we have. - He's presumably been impressed by his attitude in training despite interest in him from elsewhere. Perhaps this can't be said for both Faes and Mavididi. We don't know as we're not privy to this information so it's pointless speculating. - We don't know how the signings played out. He may have been given a list of recommendations by the Technical Director and Chief Scout and he may have been part of the process of then choosing from said recommendations. If he trusts those that he's previously worked with given our precarious situation then fair enough. Signing promising players from a club like Brighton should be viewed as a positive rather than a negative. - Agreed on this one. I'm not sure BDR is a footballer nevermind a striker. - Hopefully this is remedied somewhat before the transfer window closes as watching Okoli and Souttar especially gives me palpitations. I also want him to succeed here. I didn't want him here, but he is now and he's a decent coach. 2
boosmanana Posted 16 August Posted 16 August 9 minutes ago, Number 6 said: Nothing of great note given the time frame. As per my previous posts I believe this stems from the reputation he'd built before joining us. He got Southampton promoted out of the Championship by playing attractive football, improved both MK Dons and Swansea and failed at Rangers? So he's done 1 bad job out of the 4 he's had. McCinnes who was lauded at Hearts is now enduring the same kind of frustrations thus far as Martin was. 1
BenTheFox Posted 16 August Posted 16 August 1 hour ago, Dames said: Did his methods work at Southampton? Did they work at Rangers? No. Has he rocked up here with the same ideas as his previous 2 failures, yes. Are the team still playing in a way that has seen us slide to two back to back relegations? Yes. I’d have far more patience if we were unlucky in those performances but we were actually lucky, we are still creating very little, we are still defending clumsily and poorly and we are still stuck with a group of players that have 0 mental fortitude. We need to hit the ground running otherwise we wont be able to arrest the slide. Early signs are not good. You won't get any argument from me that the performances have not been good enough and there are not many encouraging signs. I would, however, argue that it did work at Southampton. They were promoted at the first time of asking and went on a 25 game unbeaten run in the same season. Hom and his his team were massively out of their depth in the Premier league though. 1
Popular Post Dames Posted 16 August Popular Post Posted 16 August 2 minutes ago, boosmanana said: He got Southampton promoted out of the Championship by playing attractive football, improved both MK Dons and Swansea and failed at Rangers? So he's done 1 bad job out of the 4 he's had. McCinnes who was lauded at Hearts is now enduring the same kind of frustrations thus far as Martin was. Can we drop the phrase ‘attractive football’ please. Its not attractive its been offending our eyes for the best part of 5 years. Even when we were successful under Enzo it was a hard watch and we had that horrid run. Its horrid, vile, disgusting antifootball and i’m sick of it being forced on us. 6 9
Number 6 Posted 16 August Posted 16 August 7 minutes ago, boosmanana said: He got Southampton promoted out of the Championship by playing attractive football, improved both MK Dons and Swansea and failed at Rangers? So he's done 1 bad job out of the 4 he's had. McCinnes who was lauded at Hearts is now enduring the same kind of frustrations thus far as Martin was. This is a fairly generous interpretation.
boosmanana Posted 16 August Posted 16 August 2 minutes ago, Dames said: Can we drop the phrase ‘attractive football’ please. Its not attractive its been offending our eyes for the best part of 5 years. Even when we were successful under Enzo it was a hard watch and we had that horrid run. Its horrid, vile, disgusting antifootball and i’m sick of it being forced on us. Matter of opinion I guess isn't it. You don't like possession football and that's your issue. I've thoroughly enjoyed watching the likes of Pep's Barca, Pep's Man City, the Spanish National team over the last however many years and none of that is vaguely "anti-football", in my opinion of course. I've not enjoyed watching us at all since Enzo left, as we've not had any kind of cohesive gameplan and the players that we've had to watch have mostly displayed a disgusting lack of effort and application. 1
boosmanana Posted 16 August Posted 16 August 2 minutes ago, Number 6 said: This is a fairly generous interpretation. Maybe, but taking the word "attractive" out of the equation and it's all factual at least.
Dames Posted 16 August Posted 16 August 2 minutes ago, boosmanana said: Matter of opinion I guess isn't it. You don't like possession football and that's your issue. I've thoroughly enjoyed watching the likes of Pep's Barca, Pep's Man City, the Spanish National team over the last however many years and none of that is vaguely "anti-football", in my opinion of course. I've not enjoyed watching us at all since Enzo left, as we've not had any kind of cohesive gameplan and the players that we've had to watch have mostly displayed a disgusting lack of effort and application. Those 3 teams you mentioned have 3 things in common, Pep. Everyone that has imitated him with playing possession football doesnt have the IQ or adaptability that he has and it has resulted in very very bad knock offs. Its just possession for possession sake and hoping it translates. Pep has adapted over the years very subtly but many of his admirers and imitators havent caught up or dont have the IQ to adapt as he has. Enzo i feel might be the closest and these next 6 months will either prove or disprove that.
JJD_LCFC Posted 16 August Posted 16 August 2 hours ago, Lionator said: For the millionth time, Enzo Maresca, Steve Cooper, RVN, Marti Cifuentes, Andy King, Gary Rowett, Russell Martin aren’t and weren’t the problem. Every manager here will fail until the obvious happens. I do agree that there is a larger problem than the managers mentioned. Removal of Top and Rudkin is massively needed. however I would say the managers have certainly caused issues too. Steve Cooper signed diabolical players and we are still stuck with Skipp and Bobby Reid to this day. Russell Martin is the completely wrong choice for our current situation. Playing possession football will not work in this league. Every game will be competitive and physical rather than tactical/ technical. He does not and will not adapt, and we do not have the players he requires. Our board are incompetent and definitely need removing but managers played a part in this mess too. Out of those 8 managers. Only 1 has progressed from our club. All others are at lower levels and shows the appointment of managers has been woeful for 4- 5 seasons. As you mentioned if nothing changes at the top we will continue in a downward trajectory anyway. Sooner the better on this and hopefully a new buyer comes forward quickly. 1
trooky Posted 16 August Posted 16 August (edited) 😂 Nobody wanted him and exactly the reaction I expected on FT after the first game. The team is in transition, but I don't think we can recruit the type of defensive players he needs in league 1 to play this way. IMO his job depends on how good Chaplin, Bristric, Alves, Cullen and Burns are once they're all match fit and settled into the team. Edited 16 August by trooky 4
coolhandfox Posted 16 August Posted 16 August 1 hour ago, Dames said: Can you blame the fans really? We’ve just seen the same flat performance with the same silly mistakes for the 70th game in a row. Each passing year the opposition gets worse but we dont seem to improve. It may not help these young lads but on the flip side if they cannot handle the expectation of performing against League One opposition then they will never make it as high level footballers. No, but not sure it help either.
Popular Post inckley fox Posted 16 August Popular Post Posted 16 August 11 minutes ago, boosmanana said: He got Southampton promoted out of the Championship by playing attractive football, improved both MK Dons and Swansea and failed at Rangers? So he's done 1 bad job out of the 4 he's had. McCinnes who was lauded at Hearts is now enduring the same kind of frustrations thus far as Martin was. He improved MK Dons (they were in the relegation zone when he took over and finished just outside, then were mid-table the next season) but not so much Swansea, who'd been in the play-offs for two seasons before he turned up, when they dropped to lower mid-table. They did a bit better in his second season and I think he had to work on a very limited budget, but it wasn't especially impressive. At Southampton, of course he deserves plenty of credit for his promotion, but it comes with serious caveats. Firstly, that they were among the favourites and anything less than promotion would have been considered a failure. Maybe not to the same degree as Maresca with us, but a failure nonetheless. Second, he only just scraped it. And third, they were heading for one of the worst ever top flight relegations when he left. His ppg had them on track to match Derby's record and I'm pretty sure his record is the third worst of any EPL manager who had more than ten games in charge. It's hard to say that he left that team in a better place than he found it (which is something I think you could argue about him in three of his four managerial roles). I'm not sure you can excuse the Rangers debacle on the grounds that everyone else struggled there. Beale, Clement and Rohl all had plenty of issues, but equally all of them did way better than Martin, and McInnes has only had four matches to date. Is he a good coach, as you put it? Occasionally, in the right circumstances, is probably about fair. I agree that we have to give him a fair crack of the whip, but equally it's important to remember that there was a good reason why people were so sceptical in the first place. It wasn't just a load of ill-considered gripes about 'all this tippy-tappy b******s'. 6 1
Product of 84 Posted 16 August Posted 16 August 47 million on Okoli (12m), Souttar (15m) and Skipp (20m) and they can't manage the Notts County press. Thomas received a lot of flack on here yesterday, however the quality, accuracy and speed of the passes out to him were atrocious from the 3 above. As both Okoli and Souttar are right footed they naturally play the ball to the left back when panicking. I'm convinced the plan was for Nelson to start at CB with Souttar/Okoli. He is a big miss if you want to persist with this style. I'd imagine that's why Vestergaard was let go rather than Faas. How do you solve it? As unfortunately Martin isn't going to stop asking us to play this way. 2
TJB-fox Posted 16 August Posted 16 August 41 minutes ago, Dames said: Can we drop the phrase ‘attractive football’ please. Its not attractive its been offending our eyes for the best part of 5 years. Even when we were successful under Enzo it was a hard watch and we had that horrid run. Its horrid, vile, disgusting antifootball and i’m sick of it being forced on us. You were probably one of those supporters booing Enzo tbh. You’re aiming your King Power vitriol in the wrong direction. 1
Dames Posted 16 August Posted 16 August (edited) 5 minutes ago, TJB-fox said: You were probably one of those supporters booing Enzo tbh. You’re aiming your King Power vitriol in the wrong direction. I never boo’d Enzo actually. I was only critical of him of things that he did wrong as I do with all managers. The only issues i had with him was when he was putting 2 keepers on the bench before the transfer window closed and handicapping his ability to manage a game because he wanted to make a point and the other issue was that he did not respond well enough during that run from January to May when we limped to promotion and even then it was more that he needed to become more flexible to succeed in the Premier League. All that being said we were hard to watch under Enzo more times than not, he just managed to get us to grind out enough results. Edited 16 August by Dames
FoxesWalk Posted 16 August Posted 16 August 15 minutes ago, Product of 84 said: 47 million on Okoli (12m), Souttar (15m) and Skipp (20m) and they can't manage the Notts County press. Thomas received a lot of flack on here yesterday, however the quality, accuracy and speed of the passes out to him were atrocious from the 3 above. As both Okoli and Souttar are right footed they naturally play the ball to the left back when panicking. I'm convinced the plan was for Nelson to start at CB with Souttar/Okoli. He is a big miss if you want to persist with this style. I'd imagine that's why Vestergaard was let go rather than Faas. How do you solve it? As unfortunately Martin isn't going to stop asking us to play this way. Agree on Nelson, we urgently need a ball playing center back, probably 2. We will be giving away ridiculous chances pissing around at the back anyway, but with the two fridge freezers we currently have at center back it will literally be 3-4 big chances from errors per game, as it was vs County. 1
Foxmeister Posted 16 August Posted 16 August 49 minutes ago, boosmanana said: Matter of opinion I guess isn't it. You don't like possession football and that's your issue. I've thoroughly enjoyed watching the likes of Pep's Barca, Pep's Man City, the Spanish National team over the last however many years and none of that is vaguely "anti-football", in my opinion of course. I've not enjoyed watching us at all since Enzo left, as we've not had any kind of cohesive gameplan and the players that we've had to watch have mostly displayed a disgusting lack of effort and application. You can’t sensibly compare us to Spain. Unless you think there’s a swap to be done with Mav and Yamal? 1
Popular Post Chrysalis Posted 16 August Popular Post Posted 16 August (edited) 1 hour ago, boosmanana said: He got Southampton promoted out of the Championship by playing attractive football, improved both MK Dons and Swansea and failed at Rangers? So he's done 1 bad job out of the 4 he's had. McCinnes who was lauded at Hearts is now enduring the same kind of frustrations thus far as Martin was. Saints fans think they were promoted despite Martin, not because of Martin. Swansea improved after he left. Edited 16 August by Chrysalis 5
gurru991 Posted 16 August Posted 16 August Martins style of football requires players who are comfortable with the ball at their feet. Unfortunately we do not have very many of those & it showed against Notts County..!! It takes a special kind of stupidity to keep trying to drive that square peg into a round hole. 2
Bablemikey Posted 16 August Posted 16 August 2 hours ago, BrilliantFox said: Even if we get back to back promoted, who wants Russel Martin in the prem? There isn't any longevity with him in charge. If he delivers us back to back promotions to the Premier League it will have been an extraordinary period of management and he would absolutely be entitled to continue in the Premiership. Somehow, I suspect that this is not going to be our future though. 1
Kitchandro Posted 16 August Posted 16 August 1 hour ago, Dames said: Those 3 teams you mentioned have 3 things in common, Pep. Everyone that has imitated him with playing possession football doesnt have the IQ or adaptability that he has and it has resulted in very very bad knock offs. Its just possession for possession sake and hoping it translates. Pep has adapted over the years very subtly but many of his admirers and imitators havent caught up or dont have the IQ to adapt as he has. Enzo i feel might be the closest and these next 6 months will either prove or disprove that. The thing they have in common is 9 or 10 world class players. If they are entertaining it’s because of that. Spain were dull as owt to watch when Villa wasn’t in the team, he was the only one who took players on and had shots.
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