Andy King

[Raj]

I don't agree with the original poster and I'm also against the negativity that Daggers is alluding to. However I see nothing wrong with sensible debate about the benefits and drawbacks of any particular player, however old or young they are.

Daggers is blowing this out of proportion. As such this thread will probably descend into the very thing that he doesn't want.

I like you JTB.

Do you think Stevie H is a fat shit?

Also,can we turn this thread into a petition to swap the Kop with The family Stand then?

Anyway,i'll leave you all in peace......

[Corky]

I don't agree with the original poster and I'm also against the negativity that Daggers is alluding to. However I see nothing wrong with sensible debate about the benefits and drawbacks of any particular player, however old or young they are.

Daggers is blowing this out of proportion. As such this thread will probably descend into the very thing that he doesn't want.

Maybe Daggers has gone a bit OTT but he is right in what he is alluding to. There were people around me on Saturday moaning at 2-0 up. Why can't people enjoy the match when we are winning?

[Daggers]

Bloody hell all the original poster said was that he didn't particularly rate King. Have you got your period or something?

And all I said was that I am piss bored of the attitude.

Were you after a tampon loan or something?

[Daggers]

Maybe Daggers has gone a bit OTT but he is right in what he is alluding to. There were people around me on Saturday moaning at 2-0 up. Why can't people enjoy the match when we are winning?

I'm alluding to nothing - I'm being quite forthright in my vilification of the negativity and misery that still pervades our support. We suffered it at Stockport, endless lobotomised bitching, and Scoweh & Cobbo had it all match on Saturday.

King hasn't really done anything wrong, he's had flashes of being really good, and yet a thread springs up to carp about him.

The thread starter said he was interested in opinions - this was mine.

[Corky]

I'm alluding to nothing - I'm being quite forthright in my vilification of the negativity and misery that still pervades our support. We suffered it at Stockport, endless lobotomised bitching, and Scoweh & Cobbo had it all match on Saturday.

King hasn't really done anything wrong, he's had flashes of being really good, and yet a thread springs up to carp about him.

The thread starter said he was interested in opinions - this was mine.

Absolutely. I said that it wasn't his best game on Saturday, but he didn't put a foot wrong in terms of mistakes. For heaven's sake, he's had about ten first-team matches.

[James.]

See. You have blown this out of proportion. People saying stuff like "OH MY GOD HE'S ONLY PLAYED A FEW GAMES HOW DARE YOU SAY ALL THESE HORRIBLE THINGS ABOUT HIM"... when in reality there's nothing wrong with debating his place in the team, particularly when we have Wesolowski on the bench and Clemence returning at some point. Not to forget (heaven forbid) a player like Porter who COULD play in his position.

This isn't about the idiots who sit in the Kop moaning all game. It's not about people refusing to be positive. It's about Andy King and his place in the team. What the f**k is wrong with that?

I agree with what you say about lifting the negative air at the club but this isn't the thread to do it.

[Babylon]

King hasn't really done anything wrong, he's had flashes of being really good, and yet a thread springs up to carp about him.

I'd be willing to bet that if thracian hadn't picked him as one of his chosen ones we wouldn't be getting these threads.

[Dr The Singh]

I'd be willing to bet that if thracian hadn't picked him as one of his chosen ones we wouldn't be getting these threads.

I'm one of his chosen ones, I never get this type of attention!!!

[Thracian]

Woah Woah Woah!

What is it about experienced users of this forum that makes them think that they can shout down others?

All I have suggested is that King is not worth his place. I never said that I haven't been impressed with the team performance - I think we've been doing fantastically. I just think that King is not the best choice for that central midfield role and that he has contributed little towards our early form.

Look at Manchester United - 2 years ago they won the league and then went and spent big money on Hargreaves, Nani, Anderson and Tevez. Just because we're playing well doesn't mean that everything is hunky dorey and can't be improved on. And I think that Andy King is the weak link in our side at the moment.

But of course this response will be downplayed by those who consider it to be 'cretinous' without even considering the arguments before them. We had an (obviously) young guy come on here the other day and ask about the Sappleton loan situation and whilst his questioning style was particularly irritating and pointless the responses to it from certain experienced board users presented the front of what appeared to be a 'clique' of frequent posters who were allowed to be as abusive to other users as they wanted whilst others are not allowed to write freely.

But going back to the point at hand - King should not be in this side. There is a reason he hardly played last season (cue predictable 'had King been playing we wouldn't have gone down' response - rubbish) and those who think that he would do better than Clemence (which some have suggested) are utterly delusional. Such is the nature of fans' interpretations of youngsters' performances that they are always given extra lenience. Had Clemence played like King in the first three games there'd be more than one thread suggesting he wasn't up to it.

So I challenge Daggers to produce an eloquent and appropriate response to the arguments I've laid out, as other, less experienced users of this forum have thus far.

Seeing as we went down by such a narrow margin and created nothing from midfield for most of last season I don't think any "had King been playing" comment would be inaccurate.

But how about something trangible.

Leicester City won the Academy title with King in defensive midfield - not Weso.

They won their League that season against some Premiership Academies because they dictated almost every game in midfield and seeing as King's partner, Tom Tejan-Sie didn't even get a contract - sadly in my view - that suggests exactly how well King played.

He scored goals and made goals on a match by match basis.

Now he's moved on no-one is being lenient on him or any other of our youngsters. Our results speak for themselves as does our League position and 6-1 goals difference compared with 7-4 at this stage last season.

Had Clemence been playing and we'd achieved the above I'd doubt anyone would have grumbled with any great conviction but Clemence isn't available, he hasn't been an option for months and I haven't a clue whether he'd be better or worse than anyone else in the new situation.

What I do know is that none of our playing squad deserves more than localised criticism thus far. Most have made mistakes - Dyer and Oakley missed good chances at Stockport just for example - but all players make mistakes and I'm far more inclined to talk about the good things they've done collectively to put us where we are.

And in particular taking supposedly inferior opposition seriously.

To a man this team is not just showing much improved individual skills compared last season's but they are trying to do the labouring part of their job as a unit. They have worked their socks through. And, unlike so often in the past, they have done so for the duration of the game, King as much as anyone else.

I don't give a shit who Manchester United bought with their millions. We're in Division One. Our challenge this season is to win promotion and seeing as we're second in the table and unbeaten that challenge seems to be being met. Just being up there with the pacemakers is a relief after the mess this club became.

And that's down to two things. Nigel Pearson and his squad of players. And not just those being picked but the others who are providing genuine competition for places.

PS: I'm sure Daggers will make up his own mind as to whether he wants to be eloquent or not but I'd have no doubts about his ability to make his point whichever way he prefers.

[Thracian]

I'd be willing to bet that if thracian hadn't picked him as one of his chosen ones we wouldn't be getting these threads.

Who else do you want me to praise Babs?

Chosen One? I'd choose the lot right now if I could.

How conveniently people ignore all the good things I've said about the once faltering Fryatt, Oakley, Howard etc.

But we missed Porter last season and were suicidal in not using Gradel, Sheehan and King at different times.

I don't want us making the same mistake again and, hopefully, I don't think we will.

[Benji]

hehe

[Thracian]

I'm one of his chosen ones, I never get this type of attention!!!

The Barbars is always waiting my friend.

[Fox You Forest]

If Pearson thinks King is a better option than Weso or Kish thats plenty good enough for me.

I cant believe you just bought Sheehan up again.

[Joe.]

If Pearson thinks King is a better option than Weso or Kish thats plenty good enough for me.

I cant believe you just bought Sheehan up again.

Can't you? Really?

[Babylon]

Who else do you want me to praise Babs?

Nobody... for their sake.

How conveniently people ignore all the good things I've said about the once faltering Fryatt, Oakley, Howard etc.

I've not said you haven't, but there are some people you do bang on about more than others. I don't think it's a coincidence that people give them less of a chance that other youngsters coming through.

You didn't go on about Weso or Mattock and in my opinion they don't get the grief King or Sheehan do/did for poor performances. Porter is now joining that group.

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

They won their League that season against some Premiership Academies because they dictated almost every game in midfield and seeing as King's partner, Tom Tejan-Sie didn't even get a contract - sadly in my view - that suggests exactly how well King played.

King's an attacking midfielder isn't he? I thought tejan sie was a defensive midfielder, you were always pressing for King as he's an attacking midfielder who gets goals. From the games I've seen, (all except tranmere) he's been largely ineffective, with oakley playing the deeper role, picking up the pieces, only promise I've seen from King is the second half against stockport when he pushed on more.

[Thracian]

King's an attacking midfielder isn't he? I thought tejan sie was a defensive midfielder, you were always pressing for King as he's an attacking midfielder who gets goals. From the games I've seen, (all except tranmere) he's been largely ineffective, with oakley playing the deeper role, picking up the pieces, only promise I've seen from King is the second half against stockport when he pushed on more.

King played as a defensive midfielder in the Play-off final. He plays either role, or a bit of both, quite comfortably and that helps explain why he cogs in so well with Oakley and also to the latter's benefit.

I've often cautioned about playing King too defensively and wasting his attackin abilities but clearly, one part of his role under Pearson is to strengthen our defence when necessary, particularly at set pieces.

Happily Pearson seems to have the balance right because Oakley is also defending and what we have is two players complimenting each other and sharing the workload either in defence or attack exactly as King and Tejan-Sie used to.

Yes, Tejan-Sie tended towards the defensive but the Academy played much higher upfield than the first team and he still spent most of his time in the attacking half and a fair bit of it in the attacking front third involving himself with a whole lot of defence-breaching one-two's.

[Cheese Me]

My two cents for what it's worth.

Ludicrous thread, I agree with Daggers there's far too much negativity and it really is pointless, especially so early in the season with so little game time to judge on and results looking positive.

I have to say I feel for Weso and would like to see him in the team more BUT King is obvioulsy impressing Pearson who is doing a great job of building a team who are playing well, complementing each other and importantly winning. There are hundreds of small contributions over the course of a game that get forgotten but clearly play a part in the outcome and for me there is nothing to point towards King not warranting his place.

And as for those still criticising Howard......

[Guest ttfn]

I don't agree with the original poster and I'm also against the negativity that Daggers is alluding to. However I see nothing wrong with sensible debate about the benefits and drawbacks of any particular player, however old or young they are.

Daggers is blowing this out of proportion. As such this thread will probably descend into the very thing that he doesn't want.

This is absolutely ridiculous. At no point when I started this thread was I expecting anything like the reaction that it's got. At exactly what point am I being negative? Yes, I said that King isn't much cop but did I say 'we're screwed with King in the side'? No, of course not. And for the record, I wish the boy the best of luck - I want him to succeed as much as the next guy but I just don't think he's performing. I even explicitly stated at a later stage that I was delighted with how we were performing as a whole. I am exactly the sort of person who doesn't criticise. When we drew 0-0 away at Stockport I thought that was a point gained rather than two dropped.

I have literally no idea how me suggesting that King was not worth his place in the side makes me a 'moron'. And whilst we're on the subject, that BigSapps chap was shouted down and ended up calling everyone a 'twat' only to be taken down by the moderators. But when Mr 'All I do all day is sit on here and write 24,000 posts' calls someone a moron or a cretin, nobody bats an eyelid. You're entitled to your opinion but there's a degree of eloquence which is required and why, despite the fact that I don't agree with much of what he says, I happen to have a certain degree of respect for Thracian. He argues in a sustained and justifiable way rather than hurling insults and attempting to be the forum comedian.

[Daggers]

See. You have blown this out of proportion. People saying stuff like "OH MY GOD HE'S ONLY PLAYED A FEW GAMES HOW DARE YOU SAY ALL THESE HORRIBLE THINGS ABOUT HIM"... when in reality there's nothing wrong with debating his place in the team, particularly when we have Wesolowski on the bench and Clemence returning at some point. Not to forget (heaven forbid) a player like Porter who COULD play in his position.

This isn't about the idiots who sit in the Kop moaning all game. It's not about people refusing to be positive. It's about Andy King and his place in the team. What the f**k is wrong with that?

I agree with what you say about lifting the negative air at the club but this isn't the thread to do it.

Why?

As far as I'm concerned it's any thread where people are focussing on the negative. Starting off a thread implying that the lad is so bad he needs to blackmail himself into the starting 11 hardly enters itself into the bracket of optimistic or reasoned debate ("I've been to both of the first two home games of the season and come out of each with one question - Does Andy King have something on Nigel Pearson?") - which opens itself to full mocking in my book. What, as you say, the f**k is wrong with that?

[Koke]

Why?

As far as I'm concerned it's any thread where people are focussing on the negative. Starting off a thread implying that the lad is so bad he needs to blackmail himself into the starting 11 hardly enters itself into the bracket of optimistic or reasoned debate ("I've been to both of the first two home games of the season and come out of each with one question - Does Andy King have something on Nigel Pearson?") - which opens itself to full mocking in my book. What, as you say, the f**k is wrong with that?

I don't understand the problem in questioning the lad's ability and effect on the football field. Nobody is crucifying anyone. People just reckon there is room for improvement and Andy King seems to one position where we could improve.

Nothing to do with negativity, just a healthy debate me thinks.

[Daggers]

I don't understand the problem in questioning the lad's ability and effect on the football field. Nobody is crucifying anyone. People just reckon there is room for improvement and Andy King seems to one position where we could improve.

Nothing to do with negativity, just a healthy debate me thinks.

As I said, that's not my take on the initial post...but he says it isn't, you all say it isn't, so I'll hold my hands up and apologise and leave the thread.

[James.]

I don't understand the problem in questioning the lad's ability and effect on the football field. Nobody is crucifying anyone. People just reckon there is room for improvement and Andy King seems to one position where we could improve.

Nothing to do with negativity, just a healthy debate me thinks.

Absolutely.

Anyway I've made my points, I'm not going to carry on bickering.

[RowlattsFox]

Does anyone ever notice how many times King pulls out of 50/50 tackles, I noticed it quite a lot against Stockport (away) but no-one else seems to have mentioned it. Maybe I'm just being a little over-critical.

[Milky]

Does anyone ever notice how many times King pulls out of 50/50 tackles, I noticed it quite a lot against Stockport (away) but no-one else seems to have mentioned it. Maybe I'm just being a little over-critical.

I've noticed it aswell. Did another couple against the trannies.