Hillsborough: Search For The Truth

[RedHux]

FWIW I very much agree with the Narborough Bod.

[Bilo]

That's actually very sensible, whatever happened in the cover up afterwards actually didn't kill anybody. Some people seem to have forgotten that whilst carrying their pitchforks.

Kelvin MacKenzie haa a fair point actually (not that anyone would dare ask it to any Liverpool fans) why did the Sun get treated so different to all the other news outlets?

The main reason The Sun was treated so differently was the manner in which it reported the SYP's lies.

The Mirror, Star, Liverpool Echo and several other papers printed what had been said but reported them as allegations from 'sources' in the police. The job of the media is, after all, to report all sides. They didn't report the allegations as fact, but as what they were seen as at the time. Rumours, hearsay, accusations.

The Sun reported them as fact under a highly emotive headline that strongly implied that the Liverpool fans were in fact the liars rather than the police. There most probably is a political bent to it from those not affiliated with Liverpool such as Billy Bragg, but would you not argue that The Sun was politically motivated too? Fans from a staunchly Labour and anti-Tory city who had been well and truly let down by the establishment wouldn't have been the paper's first choice of headline in the late 80s...

[Guest MattP]

You're not wrong.

You clearly don't give a stuff what Lord Justice Taylor said, especially the part in his report that stated fans should NOT be blamed for the disaster.

And you're equally dismissive of the inquiry panel who found evidence to suggest that dozens of fans could have been saved if the ambulances hadn't been kept outside the ground.

Instead you prefer to wallow in your own ignorant prejudices and let the guilty continue to evade responsibility for their negligence and lies.

What happened to Liverpool fans could just have easily happened to fans of many other clubs - including Leicester.

Exactly, there were no ticketless fans, no one was drunk, it was an orderly queue and it could have happened to anyone.

Liverpool fans have never been the sort to jump over barriers on mass without tickets or cause problems, their behaviour was completely impeccable at Hillsborough, Heysel, Athens and Rome.

The Bishop of Liverpool and the 5 other regular football goers (not) on the panel said so.

[Guest MattP]

The main reason The Sun was treated so differently was the manner in which it reported the SYP's lies.

The Mirror, Star, Liverpool Echo and several other papers printed what had been said but reported them as allegations from 'sources' in the police. The job of the media is, after all, to report all sides. They didn't report the allegations as fact, but as what they were seen as at the time. Rumours, hearsay, accusations.

The Sun reported them as fact under a highly emotive headline that strongly implied that the Liverpool fans were in fact the liars rather than the police. There most probably is a political bent to it from those not affiliated with Liverpool such as Billy Bragg, but would you not argue that The Sun was politically motivated too? Fans from a staunchly Labour and anti-Tory city who had been well and truly let down by the establishment wouldn't have been the paper's first choice of headline in the late 80s...

I'll be interested to read this article tomorrow, like I've said, I have only seen the Sun's reporting of the day. I havn't been able to look at everyone elses and it will be interesting to see what Kelvin has dug up tomorrow.

[Bilo]

Exactly, there were no ticketless fans, no one was drunk, it was an orderly queue and it could have happened to anyone.

Liverpool fans have never been the sort to jump over barriers on mass without tickets or cause problems, their behaviour was completely impeccable at Hillsborough, Heysel, Athens and Rome.

The Bishop of Liverpool and the 5 other regular goers on the panel said so.

Nobody is claiming that the Liverpool fans that day were akin to a monastery's pilgrimage to Lourdes. There probably were ticketless fans, scallies, drunks and others we would probably consider the detritus of society nowadays there.

However, many if not most football crowds were like this in the late 80s. Leicester and Chelsea fans rioted in Leicester on the same day, a riot that is still infamous. Earlier, Tottenham fans had come perilously close to disaster at Hillsborough in the '81 semi-final after similar mismanagement of the situation. Indeed, Tottenham fans wrote to the inquiry post Hillsborough recounting their experiences of 1981 but their letters were ignored.

Heysel has nothing to do with this situation. Liverpool fans were vile in Belgium four years earlier, but that and Hillsborough were chalk and cheese.

The police messed up and lied about it afterwards. The exact same teams played 12 months previously with no loss of life or serious injury. This meant the same scally fans, the same drunks, the same ticketless supporters, the same pens, the same stand. I daresay many of the 96 who died attended the '88 semi-final as well. Some of them probably stood on more or less the same spot where they'd die 12 months later.

The difference between those two days? Chief Supt Duckenfield's incompetence, inexperience and dishonesty.

[Bilo]

I'll be interested to read this article tomorrow, like I've said, I have only seen the Sun's reporting of the day. I havn't been able to look at everyone elses and it will be interesting to see what Kelvin has dug up tomorrow.

I've recently covered the controversy in a Media Studies lesson, and the students came to the same conclusion.

Most major titles covered the allegations, but it was the language The Sun used was the overriding issue.

The fact it took them 15 years to put out a half-arsed apology, and 23 years for an unreserved apology went against them as well.

[Guest MattP]

Nobody is claiming that the Liverpool fans that day were akin to a monastery's pilgrimage to Lourdes. There probably were ticketless fans, scallies, drunks and others we would probably consider the detritus of society nowadays there.

However, many if not most football crowds were like this in the late 80s. Leicester and Chelsea fans rioted in Leicester on the same day, a riot that is still infamous. Earlier, Tottenham fans had come perilously close to disaster at Hillsborough in the '81 semi-final after similar mismanagement of the situation. Indeed, Tottenham fans wrote to the inquiry post Hillsborough recounting their experiences of 1981 but their letters were ignored.

Heysel has nothing to do with this situation. Liverpool fans were cvnts in Belgium four years earlier, but that and Hillsborough were chalk and cheese.

The police fvcked up and lied about it afterwards. The exact same teams played 12 months previously with no loss of life or serious injury. This meant the same scally fans, the same drunks, the same ticketless supporters, the same pens, the same stand. I daresay many of the 96 who died attended the '88 semi-final as well. Some of them probably stood on more or less the same spot where they'd die 12 months later.

The difference between those two days? Chief Supt Duckenfield's incompetence, inexperience and dishonesty.

Thats's the point though, as bad as that dishonesty was it didn't kill anybody. The actual disaster and aftermatch are two different situations. I'm not saying it wasn't the Police's fault, what I'm saying is a hell of a lot of things contributed to what happened that day and to completely exonerate the fans is ridiculous.

The fact it took them 15 years to put out a half-arsed apology, and 23 years for an unreserved apology went against them as well.

Just a few more than it took Liverpool fans to pull off that half arsed attempt at home to Juventus then after spending 20 years telling us all it was "Chelsea fans". Even their Chairman got in the act, though amazingly, Chelsea aren't allowed to hold the same grudge judging by last season.

[Bilo]

Thats's the point though, as bad as that dishonesty was it didn't kill anybody. The actual disaster and aftermatch are two different situations. I'm not saying it wasn't the Police's fault, what I'm saying is a hell of a lot of things contributed to what happened that day and to completely exonerate the fans is ridiculous.

Just a few more than it took Liverpool fans to pull off that half arsed attempt at home to Juventus then after spending 20 years telling us all it was "Chelsea fans".

The dishonesty didn't kill anybody, but then neither did Maxine Carr. I'm pretty sure most of us still found her actions abhorrent in protecting Ian Huntley. What the SYP did amounted to the same thing, perverting the course of justice. They caused the deaths of 96 people, smeared them as being at fault, lied about their own actions and got away with it scot free. At least Maxine Carr was put away for her appalling behaviour, most of the coppers who initiated the smear campaign are probably on full pensions paid for by the taxpayer.

In a recession, I think we can spend money on better things than the nest eggs of liars.

Again, Heysel isn't really relevant to Hillsborough. Men were convicted of manslaughter and went to prison, English clubs were banned for five years and Liverpool for six, hooliganism was absolutely decimated by the government and dumps like Heysel were never used again for high profile games.

Justice was done for Heysel. The fans were punished, English football was punished, Liverpool were punished and mass hooliganism, the chief cause of the disaster, all but died in Brussels with 39 innocent supporters. That all occurred within 5 years. By contrast, it took 23 years for the SYP to admit they'd lied. The Taylor Report saw nobody go to prison, no verdict of unlawful killing was reached and nobody was even sacked.

Just another way that Heysel and Hillsborough are chalk and cheese.

[Captain...]

Thats's the point though, as bad as that dishonesty was it didn't kill anybody. The actual disaster and aftermatch are two different situations. I'm not saying it wasn't the Police's fault, what I'm saying is a hell of a lot of things contributed to what happened that day and to completely exonerate the fans is ridiculous.

But incompetence did, the stand that the Liverpool fans were in was not full, the 2 central pens were, the 2 outer pens weren't even close to being full, all of the fans that entered the ground, regardless of tickets or sobriety, could have safely watched the game if they hadn't opened the exit gate, and if they had close the central pens when they were full, like they did on every other occasion at Hillsborough.

Then about half of the victims could have been saved if they had responded quicker.

So no lying about killing people, didn't kill people, but the incompetence they tried to cover up did.

[davieG]

Hillsborough: Hearing told of police video 10-minute gap

The deaths of all 96 victims of the Hillsborough disaster will be reviewed

Continue reading the main story Related Stories

• BBC award for Hillsborough campaigner
• Hillsborough police video 'edited'
• Hillsborough reference group set up

A Hillsborough pre-inquest hearing has been told a police video of the tragedy has 10 minutes of footage missing.

Pete Weatherby, barrister for some of the families, said one of the police tapes had an "unexplained 10-minute gap in the middle".

New inquests into 96 fans' deaths in March will consider the emergency service response for the first time.

Thirteen former or serving police officers have declined to speak to the police watchdog's Hillsborough inquiry.

Another six have failed to respond to requests.

'Sound operational reasons'

Ninety five Liverpool fans died at Sheffield Wednesday's ground in April 1989 during an FA cup semi-final match against Nottingham Forest, and another fan in a persistent vegetative state passed away in 1993 when treatment was withdrawn.

At a previous pre-inquest hearing in October, Mr Weatherby said video filmed by police during the disaster "may have been edited".

The families are seeking disclosure of the names of all 240 officers whose statements were amended.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) said it had "sound operational reasons" for not publicly releasing the names.

Fresh inquests into the 96 deaths were ordered in December

Rachel Cerfontyne, deputy chair of the IPCC, said its officers had already interviewed 143 of the 240 officers.

The inquiry has received 1,596 responses to its appeal for witnesses who gave accounts to the original West Midlands Police investigation, she added.

There have also been 400 requests from witnesses for copies of the statements they gave to police at the time.

The police watchdog is also examining two complaints by the brother of one victim, Adam Spearitt, about the actions of Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police.

The first related to his potentially having wrongly read out Adam's name on a list of those confirmed alive in the immediate aftermath.

The second allegation is that comments made by Sir Bernard about whether he made a statement about his role at Hillsborough have been misleading.

All the deaths will be looked at by the inquests, not just 41 which were classed as survivable.

Two doctors have been appointed to look at whether an earlier or different emergency response would have meant more lives could have been saved.

It will be the first time evidence on ambulance response times has been heard. London Ambulance Service paramedic David Whitmore will look at the timings.

Coroner Lord Justice Goldring will preside over the jury inquests in Warrington.

Christina Lambert, QC for the inquests, said blood alcohol levels of victims were "not relevant to the causes of the Hillsborough disaster".

Individual pathology reports on all 96 victims are being prepared and should be ready in the new year, the hearing was told.

The Hillsborough investigation being overseen by the IPCC is based in Warrington.

A separate team, led by former Durham Chief Constable Jon Stoddart, is investigating the response of all other agencies involved in the aftermath of the disaster.

The original inquest verdicts of accidental death, from 1991, were quashed by the High Court in December 2012.

[Oadbyoldboy]

Remembering Nick and Carl Hewitt today.

I was at the basketball playoffs at the NEC, when you went to watch the footy.

And you never came back. I didnt know your bro carl that well but we all went to manor,

we all went to beauchamp. we remember the assembly we had announcing the funeral date.

we remember the 100's and 100's of people when we lined the streets to say goodbye.

Most of all I remember you bro, every single year. R.I.P  'You'll never walk alone'

 

thinking of your mom and dad today too

[Lamby]

But incompetence did, the stand that the Liverpool fans were in was not full, the 2 central pens were, the 2 outer pens weren't even close to being full, all of the fans that entered the ground, regardless of tickets or sobriety, could have safely watched the game if they hadn't opened the exit gate, and if they had close the central pens when they were full, like they did on every other occasion at Hillsborough.

Then about half of the victims could have been saved if they had responded quicker.

So no lying about killing people, didn't kill people, but the incompetence they tried to cover up did.

 

 

If the ticketless fans were not there trying to get in, then it wouldn't have happened, end of story. So those ticketless fans have to take most of the blame really, they were the catalyst to it happening.

[Leicester_Loyal]

Again, Heysel isn't really relevant to Hillsborough. Men were convicted of manslaughter and went to prison, English clubs were banned for five years and Liverpool for six, hooliganism was absolutely decimated by the government and dumps like Heysel were never used again for high profile games.

Justice was done for Heysel. The fans were punished, English football was punished, Liverpool were punished and mass hooliganism, the chief cause of the disaster, all but died in Brussels with 39 innocent supporters. That all occurred within 5 years. By contrast, it took 23 years for the SYP to admit they'd lied. The Taylor Report saw nobody go to prison, no verdict of unlawful killing was reached and nobody was even sacked.

14 fans got three year sentences. Hardly justice. There were more fans involved, yet a lot didn't get charged. Why don't Liverpool campaign for justice there? Lets re-open the Heysel case and get some justice for those 39 fans.

[Guest MattP]

14 fans got three year sentences. Hardly justice. There were more fans involved, yet a lot didn't get charged. Why don't Liverpool campaign for justice there? Lets re-open the Heysel case and get some justice for those 39 fans.

 

Because they only campaign on justice when it suits them.

 

Look at Michael Shields, protests, marches, petitions to get him back because the real attacker was Graham Sankey and then not a word to get him put on trial after Shields had been released.

[stripeyfox]

If the ticketless fans were not there trying to get in, then it wouldn't have happened, end of story. So those ticketless fans have to take most of the blame really, they were the catalyst to it happening.

 

Whilst you could argue that this is partly true, it doesn't shift the blame for me. The failure of the police to control the crowd caused the crush and their failure to control the aftermath contributed to the high number of casualties.

 

Few points:

1) In those days you could rock up at almost any game (even if it had been declared "all ticket") and get in by paying on the gate. Did it myself a few times before and after Hillsborough (but pre all seater era). So the fans who couldn't get tickets (and we don't know if it was a small or large number) went anyway in the hope they could pay on the gate. Hardly a crime, and many of us would have done the same no doubt

 

2) At the corresponding fixture in 1988, the police had a cordon around Hillsborough which restricted the flow of fans towards the stadium at the peak time by checking everyone's tickets. Once again, this was common practice at the time and I have even seen it used at Filbert Street. You had to show tickets to a police officer before you could even get within the stadium vicinity. In 1989, this cordon was not in place

 

3) When the decision was taken to open the exit gates and let the crowd rush in, the police should have closed the tunnel to the central pens. This would have distributed people evenly across the Leppings Lane End. As others have said there was NOT an issue with overcrowding of the end in total, just in the uneven distribution of people in the middle pens

 

You can blame the crowd or mob mentality to an extent, but the police and the stadium authorities job is to manage the crowd in any event and make sure they get in and out safely. That's where the blame lies - the event was badly managed and planned, the police lost control and failed to respond adequately to an emergency and then set out to distort the facts to shift the blame onto others.

[Guest MattP]

Whilst you could argue that this is partly true, it doesn't shift the blame for me. The failure of the police to control the crowd caused the crush and their failure to control the aftermath contributed to the high number of casualties.

 

When you look at the actual news footage of this they didn't really have a chance, even the Liverpool fans interviewed on the pitch said the police should have opened the gates after the disaster, if said that 2-3 hours after how can we blame a policeman for making it in a split second decision? A lot of history has been rewritten over this.

 

The cover up was appalling and all involved should be ashamed, it didnt change and wasnt the reason for what happened though and it's important people remember that.

 

It's very easy to say shut the tunnel but that would have been impossible at the time given how many people were there, have a watch of this news report from the day and skip to 9.20 - it shows you just how crowded it was, I don't think any police force would have been able to cope with what happened. You can also clearly see ticketless fans climbing over the gates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPNeaGgjWow

[Guest MattP]

When you se that camera zoom out the pens to the side look full as anything as well, whose to say had they shut the middle we would have had the same problems just in a different area?

[stripeyfox]

The overall number of people did not exceed the capacity. The stadium (particularly that end) was badly laid out and not able to cope with the large crowd. The police and club knew this after the 1981 and 1987 semi finals and in 1988 they successfully managed the event with a similar number of fans by performing the ticket checks en route to the stadium and by closing the gate to the tunnel leading to the central pens when they reached capacity

 

You can talk about ticketless fans all you want - but the police and the authorities should have well known that people would turn up trying to chance it - and should have prepared for it accordingly.

[Super_horns]

Those 96 fans who died deserve the upmost respect regardless of what people might think about what happened (I do suspect no-one was blameless in what tragically happened)

RIP.

[Leicester_Loyal]

Because they only campaign on justice when it suits them.

 

Look at Michael Shields, protests, marches, petitions to get him back because the real attacker was Graham Sankey and then not a word to get him put on trial after Shields had been released.

Exactly my thoughts. Spot on Matt.

[Manwell Pablo]

This again......sigh.

 

Before anyone takes this the wrong way the authorities undoubtedly carry blame for Hillsborough and people should be bought to task for it. But when all is said and done if you turn up on time sober and with a ticket you're not giving the police the problem. Yes they miss managed it, the fact that Liverpool fans have been completely absolved of all blame is bizarre.

 

Whoever said Heysel is nothing like Hillsborough your spot on, unlike the Liverpool fans involved in that South Yorkshire police weren't actually intentionally trying to hurt anyone. 

[Guest MattP]

The overall number of people did not exceed the capacity. The stadium (particularly that end) was badly laid out and not able to cope with the large crowd. The police and club knew this after the 1981 and 1987 semi finals and in 1988 they successfully managed the event with a similar number of fans by performing the ticket checks en route to the stadium and by closing the gate to the tunnel leading to the central pens when they reached capacity

 

You can talk about ticketless fans all you want - but the police and the authorities should have well known that people would turn up trying to chance it - and should have prepared for it accordingly.

 

If thousands upon thousands of people turn up with the intention of getting into somewhere you are going to have problems, no police force in the World can hold this lot back, I've seen them in action on a couple of occasions. I'm just surprised it's only ended in tragedy a couple of times.

[Grandad.]

Ridiculous, unless you were there that day you can't say anything regarding the Liverpool fans being ticketless or anything, you simply don't know that for a fact. What you do know is fact that a gate was opened when it shouldn't have and what you do know is there was a disgusting cover up by this countries government and authorities to save the people who were to blame. 

 

At the end of the day 96 innocent people lost their lives at a football match, that should never happen and the families of the 96 (mine included) will continue to fight for justice. 

[Guest MattP]

But surely we can trust the words of the Liverpol fans who were there can't we?

 

Watch the news report I posted, numerous supporters on the pitch after the game claim they ticketless and had been jumping the gate etc One even said the policeman should have opened the gate earlier so how can those people turn around and say it was a huge mistake in hindsight!?

 

Of course whoever was involved should be punished for the mistakes made and the cover up that happened, but as MP says, how anyone can completely absolve them of any blame is ridiculous, just watch the reports from the day on youtube, you can try and change history all you and threaten people with violence like they do on Twitter when you say something against the grain but with social media and youtube etc we can all se with our own eyes.

 

I have no reason whatsoever to believe those Liverpool fans were lying after the game to the cameras when they said fellow fans were jumping the gates without tickets, even if they have changed their story over time through peer pressure.

[Guest MattP]

The quest for 'the truth' regarding this incident has now reached Orwellian proportions. It now appears there were no drunken fans: no ticket less fans and the fans have no responsibility for using so much force to push their way into the ground that nearly 100 people were crushed to death.

A society where individuals have no responsibility for their actions and where authorities are now routinely blamed for failing to prevent or manage those actions is a very unhealthy society.