Guest MattP Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 I'm sorry, but you cannot just state as fact that their were loads of ticketless fans, and they charged the gates, especially if an independent report has just been published stating the opposite. What happened at Athens was disgusting, and the people boasting about it to cameras at the airport coming home should have been rounded up and shot, but that, and any other time when they are proven to have done it, doesn't mean that was the case at Hillsborough, reading about the report just highlights how monumentally stupid and at fault the authorities were, and they used the reputation of Liverpool fans to hide the blame and protect themselves. Everyone knows it's been a trick of theirs for years, just because some report produced by a load of people who have probably never been a football match says they have no evidence they did it's not going to convince people who have been going to games for 20-25 years who know exactly what that lot were like. We'll be told they weren't the ones responsible for starting the away fans nicking all the designer gear next as they can't find any proof. Most people know the score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkon84 Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Who was chairing the independant report? I actually dont know, but am I right in thinking the Bishop of Liverpool had something to do with it? Nottingham Forest had a larger ticket allocation that day, yet nothing happened at their end. Why? Im seriously not pointing fingers, because I dont know enough about all this to, though Ive been reading more throughout the day, but for me, the point about Forest fans is a decent question about that day...why one and not the other? And the first question...if true, well, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Who was chairing the independant report? I actually dont know, but am I right in thinking the Bishop of Liverpool had something to do with it? Nottingham Forest had a larger ticket allocation that day, yet nothing happened at their end. Why? Im seriously not pointing fingers, because I dont know enough about all this to, though Ive been reading more throughout the day, but for me, the point about Forest fans is a decent question about that day...why one and not the other? And the first question...if true, well, you know. Please tell me that's not true. Wonder when the compensation talks will start anyway? Or am I being cynical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScouseFox Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Who was chairing the independant report? I actually dont know, but am I right in thinking the Bishop of Liverpool had something to do with it? Nottingham Forest had a larger ticket allocation that day, yet nothing happened at their end. Why? Im seriously not pointing fingers, because I dont know enough about all this to, though Ive been reading more throughout the day, but for me, the point about Forest fans is a decent question about that day...why one and not the other? And the first question...if true, well, you know. According to someone who was there on the day, and it can be read here in a very good article: http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/hillsborough-documents-released-brian-reade-1318730... Because they have less fans, yet were given the bigger end, which was also newer, easy to police as there was over twice as many turnstiles, so there wasn't such big queues for such a small amount of turnstiles like there was at the Liverpool end, so there was never going to be a problem with overcrowding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkon84 Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Please tell me that's not true. Wonder when the compensation talks will start anyway? Or am I being cynical? Ive not checked up on it, due to having a long day at work, and being lazy, but Im sure I heard a while back that he was ahving a part in these latest proceedings. Perhaps there was only ever going to be one outcome if so? According to someone who was there on the day, and it can be read here in a very good article: http://www.mirror.co...n-reade-1318730... Because they have less fans, yet were given the bigger end, which was also newer, easy to police as there was over twice as many turnstiles, so there wasn't such big queues for such a small amount of turnstiles like there was at the Liverpool end, so there was never going to be a problem with overcrowding. Ive not read that article yet, but thanks, I will do shortly. I know Forest were given a bigger allocation, despite having less fans. If this was the case, why did more Liverpool fans go? Didnt know about the easier/newer turnstyles at Forests end, so fair enough there. Thought the two opposing ends both held about the same capacity though, 12000? Im sure they did a test on the turnstyles at the Leppings Lane end before and found that you could get roughly 750 people through each one per hour, working at optimum speed. The 2 hours beforehand would have JUST got the allocated amount through in time, but that isnt really a good point as we all know, no-one turns up exactly 2 hours before the game and queues in nice lines patiently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James. Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Seems to me like some people are hell bent on blaming Liverpool fans regardless of what this report says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Seems to me like some people are hell bent on blaming Liverpool fans regardless of what this report says. Here's a thought, IF you took away all the police, the sun and the Sheffield turn-style operators and security. Would the Hillsborough disaster have happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Ive not checked up on it, due to having a long day at work, and being lazy, but Im sure I heard a while back that he was ahving a part in these latest proceedings. Perhaps there was only ever going to be one outcome if so? Well we all knew what was coming out today didn't we? Any other answer was always going to be unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom17LCFC Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Seems to me like some people are hell bent on blaming Liverpool fans regardless of what this report says. They've got to take some of the blame though surely? Turning up without tickets and going through anyway. I still think that the disaster was largely down to the incompetence of the stewards and police, poor infrastructure etc. but the Liverpool fans have to accept some of the blame. I didn't realise a similar thing happened at Athens in 2007 as well, it's mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Here's a thought, IF you took away all the police, the sun and the Sheffield turn-style operators and security. Would the Hillsborough disaster have happened? How about every single thing is the same and it's a different set of fans? Does it happen? We all know the answer. Hopefully after this they can apologise to the victims of Heysel now for the part they played in that, wouldn't count on it though, because as we all remember, that was "Chelsea fans". I'm sure the Bishop of Liverpool can wrap a report together blaming a Belgian copper and a gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James. Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 They've got to take some of the blame though surely? Turning up without tickets and going through anyway. I still think that the disaster was largely down to the incompetence of the stewards and police, poor infrastructure etc. but the Liverpool fans have to accept some of the blame. I didn't realise a similar thing happened at Athens in 2007 as well, it's mad. I just find it laughable really how people are so intent on focussing on one part of the overall disaster without giving any real thought to all of the other factors at play, which it would appear had a far greater influence on the outcome and, more importantly, had far great implications. But no let's not talk about that, let's just blame all those ticketless fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basildon Fox Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 I just find it laughable really how people are so intent on focussing on one part of the overall disaster without giving any real thought to all of the other factors at play, which it would appear had a far greater influence on the outcome and, more importantly, had far great implications. But no let's not talk about that, let's just blame all those ticketless fans. Surely it would be equally unjust to not apportion any blame to them though. Many things went wrong that day, amongst that were fans trying to storm the gates. This sort of thing could and should have been prevented still by better policing and organisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James. Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Surely it would be equally unjust to not apportion any blame to them though. Many things went wrong that day, amongst that were fans trying to storm the gates. This sort of thing could and should have been prevented still by better policing and organisation. I'm not saying don't blame them. I'm not offering an opinion on whether the ticketless fans were to blame because I haven't read the report and I wasn't there. I'm just highighting that some of the posts on here are so blatantly "Scousist" that you get the impression that regardless of what the report says they will always primarily blame Liverpool fans and not really consider the unbelievable cover up and other disgraceful actions taken by the police amongst others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 I don't think anyone can deny a series of factors contributed to what happened that day. No doubt. How Liverpool fans can be "completely exonerated" of any blame is just laughable though and will see a lot of people viewing the report as total nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Surely it would be equally unjust to not apportion any blame to them though. Many things went wrong that day, amongst that were fans trying to storm the gates. This sort of thing could and should have been prevented still by better policing and organisation. no chance, you try getting in the way of a couple of thousand football fans that turn up unannounced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertine Dream Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Don't blame it on ticketless fans, from start to finish it was planned and ealt with poorly by the police. They gave Liverpool the smaller end, they didn't give enough time for people to get through the turnstiles and numbers weren't controlled. Had it been planned right then the ticketless fans would have caused few problems. May be they shouldn't have turned up bit please don't place mich blame if any blame on any Liverpool fans. If you want to find out more about it read a book written by Peter Caton which discusses Hillborough as well as the safe standing argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxesAreBlue Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 I haven't had a chance to read it yet but he report can be downloaded in PDF from this address. http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 The Panel for anyone interested. http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/the-independent-panel/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guesty Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 I was suprised ticketless fans were completely let off the hook. In a way I think its a shame because now you will get people rightly or wrongly arguing about this. If they'd just said it was 99% the police's fault and the shocking organisation - but ticketless fans didn't help; then it could finally be put to rest. There probably were ticketless fans there because Liverpool did have a repuatation for doing that sort of thing and it is unlikely the one game no-one tried it at was the Hillsborough game. Of course no evidence will be found because they never had tickets and people are hardly likely to come out and admit it after what happened. It does show the lengths people in power will go to to cover up thier wrong-doings and makes you wonder what else gets swept under the carpet. The truth will always out eventually, hopefully some people are brought to justice and the families get the death certificates changed to something more appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Let's not forget the hooligan element that pervaded the game during this time, who seem to get some sort of admiration by some on here or at least have excuses offered for them for without whom there would have been no fences which prevented the dying from getting on the pitch as they were crushed against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breadandcheese Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 I just find it laughable really how people are so intent on focussing on one part of the overall disaster without giving any real thought to all of the other factors at play, which it would appear had a far greater influence on the outcome and, more importantly, had far great implications. But no let's not talk about that, let's just blame all those ticketless fans. I agree. The fans (paid up and ticketed) went into the stadium to watch the match. They put their faith in the authorities to police and steward the match so that their safety was maintained. They didn't ask for the gates to be opened, they didn't ask for fans not to be properly stewarded into the side pens. it was up to the authorities to police and steward the event which includes denying individuals without tickets from entering the stadium. In the same way we go week in, week out to the King Power Stadium; we are putting our trusts in the stewards and the police to ensure that we have a safe day out, free from violence and trouble. We don't even think about it, because they do a good job. At Hillsborough, they made mistakes which had tragic consequences, and those in the stadium who were relying on them to keep order and ensure safety, were let down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acooling08 Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 If a prison warden escorting a prisoner gets overpowered and the prisoner then escapes and kills somebody, is it the wardens fault or the prisoner? Yes, the warden is not entirely free of blame, but it is the prisoner who has done wrong. The warden just made a mistake that became very costly. Warden = The Police Prisoner = Liverpool fans who rushed through the gate trying to get in for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcclesallOwl Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 We're not Liverpool fans favourites this evening.. Going to be some serious chunks taken out of our fans the next time we play each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman's Wharfer Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 I've found the whole sense of self-righteousness and self-vindication from Scousers pretty distasteful today. They talk of wanting 'the truth' and wanting 'justice', with all of their chants and slogans of 'justice for the 96'. Ask any one of them what justice is and they don't have a clue. Because if justice was being absolved of any wrongdoing then they've got that today, yet now they say today is 'the truth' and now they still want this 'justice'. Anyone with any sense can see that the Liverpool fans clearly contributed to this. The problem is that you can't account for crowd mentality and 'the crowd' can't be held accountable for anything. Every time there's any report of violence at Leicester matches people immediately say things like: "they're not real fans", "they bring the name of the club into disrepute" etc. So 'the Liverpool fans' can't be held accountable. But individuals amongst that group can be blamed. There were clearly ticketless fans, clearly fans travelling to Sheffield and hoping to get in. And that lack of accountability is what is the problem. I went to Wireless a few weeks ago and there must have been a big mis-calculation of how many people would turn up to watch one of the acts. We got there 10 minutes before he was due start and getting near the front would have been impossible. Some guy came on stage: "Everyone needs to take a step back, there are people at the front here getting crushed and feeling uncomfortable. Everybody step back. If you want to see this performance step back". At the time I was genuinely concerned another incident might occur and I was nowhere near the front. Yet still there were people walking in all happy, pushing their way to the front oblivious or not caring that they were making the problem worse. All they cared about was a good view. At Hillsborough there were no doubt people thinking along the same lines: "If I turn up to the turnstile and we all push I'll be let in to watch the match". But you can't blame a whole group for this because in this group there were people (like me at Wireless) not doing the same and with good intentions. That is why no report can find 'Liverpool fans' as the cause. What people seem to forget is that there was a crush at the turnstiles, that 'a Hillsborough' could have happened outside the ground before it had the chance to inside. Unfortunately, the police clearly made a mistake. They had good intentions in relieving the pressure outside but what people did after they opened that gate they couldn't/didn't control. One of those main failings was directing people away from the central pens. But in that environment how many would have just ignored that and headed for those pens where they'd get the best views anyway? If the 'justice' is in holding the police that made those decisions accountable in the form of them now facing punishment then I would feel for them. They were maybe incompetent but their decisions were not malicious. But it almost feels like Scousers want a witch-hunt now. Obviously the cover-ups and the coverage by The Sun are scandalous, that's where the real wrongdoing lies. And the saddest aspect of the findings is how many people could have had a chance of survival. But the motivations for the things that stopped this happening look worse when viewed today. This happened at the height of mass disorder inside stadiums and hooliganism, at a time when football fans had reputations. I'm sure plenty of us, if we were there when this was developing, might have originally suspected disorder over disaster. Communication channels were not what they were now, and today the chances of the same mistakes being made would be lower. And I saw mistakes because they are what were made and this was, ultimately, an accident. A tragic accident. So ultimately, some shocking findings no doubt. But the whole air around this, and the whole air that has surrounded this for 23 years, is wrong. Let's not forget that these are the same Scousers willing to laud their collective lack of wrongdoing today yet never mentioning getting English clubs banned from Europe after Heysel. We all know that the Scousers love a tragedy and I fear today will only add more fuel to their fire. In conclusion: Hillsborough was a terrible accident. Mistakes were made by both individuals amongst the Liverpool support and the police. The reaction to the event wasn't as good as it should have been and some of the conduct from certain people/organisations post-event were awful. But let's learn the lessons, let's not demand 'justice' and create a witch-hunt. You have your 'truth' now please let it lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prospero Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Some of the comments in this thread are the most depressing and wrongheaded I have ever read on this forum and they reflect very badly on those having a laugh, on the forum and on our club. They are disgraceful. Have you no sympathy for the 96 dead and their families! To suggest that the independent panel was and is itself biased is ludicrous. Read the report. 'Consistent with Lord Justice Taylor’s findings, the Panel found no evidence among the vast number of disclosed documents and many hours of video material to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans. There was no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium and force entry and no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying. Documents show that fans became frustrated by the inadequate response to the unfolding tragedy. The vast majority of fans on the pitch assisted in rescuing and evacuating the injured and the dead.' It could have been Leicester City and not Liverpool playing that day. In which case some of us would have been there – in that pen. Liverpool fans deserve more respect. There is no evidence that fans got into the pen without tickets and those without tickets wanting to pay at the turnstiles, along with all the other fans, deserved better stewarding and policing than they received. All football fans should show sympathy and regret over the 23 years cover up of the truth. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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