Grandad. Posted 15 April 2014 Share Posted 15 April 2014 Hold on, you seem to be repeating yourself from two years ago. You're way off the mark, there was a lot of fans there without tickets, Liverpool were the biggest club in Britain, maybe even Europe at the time. The simple fact of the matter is, if that gate hadn't opened then this disaster would not have happened, simple as that. The game could of been delayed, the game should have had great police force, the game shouldn't have been played at Hillsborough, a bigger venue was needed. Same thing happened nearly happened in 1981 between Wolves and Spurs at the Leppings Lane End, everyone knew that end wasn't big enough to hold the Liverpool support. You say you have seen Liverpool fans do this kind of thing on a number of occasions, f**k me, you have seen it all haven't you? You know absolutely everything. No offence Matt you're just a full on gobshite, Mr. Know it all but in fact, you're just the average Joe down the pub who spouts a load of bollocks to his 'mates' to be the topic of conversation. You've seen sod all of Liverpool fans. I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy the pain of losing a child, hopefully I will never have to suffer that pain and feeling. Just imagine if you had lost a child, a friend or a relative that day, would you not want the truth and want to know why there was such a cover up? Or would you be happy to hear that their body was stole from, their fellow fans killed them, they were urinated on and they COULD have been saved or seen to a lot sooner? Have a little think of them things for a few minutes before coming back at me with another load of drivel about drunk and ticketless fans. Would you not want justice? I know my family and other families a like certainly would. Have some respect for 96 innocent lives that were taken from this world because all they were doing was supporting their beloved football club in an FA Cup Semi Final. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 15 April 2014 Share Posted 15 April 2014 Hold on, you seem to be repeating yourself from two years ago. You're way off the mark, there was a lot of fans there without tickets, Liverpool were the biggest club in Britain, maybe even Europe at the time. The simple fact of the matter is, if that gate hadn't opened then this disaster would not have happened, simple as that. The game could of been delayed, the game should have had great police force, the game shouldn't have been played at Hillsborough, a bigger venue was needed. Same thing happened nearly happened in 1981 between Wolves and Spurs at the Leppings Lane End, everyone knew that end wasn't big enough to hold the Liverpool support. You say you have seen Liverpool fans do this kind of thing on a number of occasions, f**k me, you have seen it all haven't you? You know absolutely everything. No offence Matt you're just a full on gobshite, Mr. Know it all but in fact, you're just the average Joe down the pub who spouts a load of bollocks to his 'mates' to be the topic of conversation. You've seen sod all of Liverpool fans. I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy the pain of losing a child, hopefully I will never have to suffer that pain and feeling. Just imagine if you had lost a child, a friend or a relative that day, would you not want the truth and want to know why there was such a cover up? Or would you be happy to hear that their body was stole from, their fellow fans killed them, they were urinated on and they COULD have been saved or seen to a lot sooner? Have a little think of them things for a few minutes before coming back at me with another load of drivel about drunk and ticketless fans. Would you not want justice? I know my family and other families a like certainly would. Have some respect for 96 innocent lives that were taken from this world because all they were doing was supporting their beloved football club in an FA Cup Semi Final. I have shown them respect, I have been part of many minute silences for this and I even tied a scarf at the gates when I went to Anfield, just because I'm questioning some of the findings of an independent inquiry doesn't mean I'm not in my opinion. No debate on the Leppings Lane End, wasn't big enough for Liverpool, although that still doesn't excuse ticketless fans forcing their way in. (Glad you have admitted that now, genuinely thought you were denying it) Not getting into the the emotional stuff, i only want to deal in facts and what actually happened to cause this, would I want to know what happened? Of course I would, would I want to know why there was a cover up? Of course. People have to remember that whatever happened in the cover up though it had no bearing on what happened, cover up or not 96 still die, as horrific as it was it doesnt change the number that died so we also need to open on what factors ALL contributed to the actual disaster. We're all gobshites mate lets be honest, that's why we are on here. Anyway the new inquiry has started now and it's being done properly in a court of law and all evidence is being considered rather than just bits and pieces and a jury will decide on the outcome. Maybe we'll revisit this when those verdicts have been reached. RIP to the 96, no one should lose thier life at a match, hopefully all the responsible who contributed to it will be brought to justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 15 April 2014 Share Posted 15 April 2014 A few things i've wondered about the disaster , How did the crush occur outside the turnstyles in the first place and who was responsible for closing the central tunnel gate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripeyfox Posted 15 April 2014 Share Posted 15 April 2014 If thousands upon thousands of people turn up with the intention of getting into somewhere you are going to have problems, no police force in the World can hold this lot back, I've seen them in action on a couple of occasions. I'm just surprised it's only ended in tragedy a couple of times. Actually the very same police force coped fine the previous year with better planning and under better leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADK Posted 15 April 2014 Share Posted 15 April 2014 I think the main cause was the layout of the ground. It was an accident waiting to happen and so it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 16 April 2014 Share Posted 16 April 2014 The quest for 'the truth' regarding this incident has now reached Orwellian proportions. It now appears there were no drunken fans: no ticket less fans and the fans have no responsibility for using so much force to push their way into the ground that nearly 100 people were crushed to death. A society where individuals have no responsibility for their actions and where authorities are now routinely blamed for failing to prevent or manage those actions is a very unhealthy society. This was not the findings of the commission, their findings said that drunken fans and ticketless fans had no bearing on the outcome and are not to blame for the tragedy. That doesn't mean they weren't there, but they were not the cause. It is clear in its findings, and saying that there were drunk fans and ticketless fans doesn't invalidate the commission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haydos Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 The simple fact of the matter is, if that gate hadn't opened then this disaster would not have happened, simple as that. I'm not saying you're wrong but your arguments make no sense. The simple fact of the matter is, if there hadn't have been thousands of ticketless fans there this disaster would not have happened, simple as that. Obviously lots of factors contributed to this but just blindly absolving all the supporters from blame is stupid. RIP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 This was not the findings of the commission, their findings said that drunken fans and ticketless fans had no bearing on the outcome and are not to blame for the tragedy. That doesn't mean they weren't there, but they were not the cause. It is clear in its findings, and saying that there were drunk fans and ticketless fans doesn't invalidate the commission. Not going to go over all this again but as I've said before to take the finding of the "independent commission" is laughable when you see who was on it. Let's wait until a years time when all the evidence has been heard in a court of law and a jury who can remain anonymous and give a verdict without the fear of retribution decides the factors of what caused it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 I'm not saying you're wrong but your arguments make no sense. The simple fact of the matter is, if there hadn't have been thousands of ticketless fans there this disaster would not have happened, simple as that. Obviously lots of factors contributed to this but just blindly absolving all the supporters from blame is stupid. RIP. The independent* commission disagrees, and I am pretty sure they have looked at a lot more evidence than you. They accept there were some drunk fans and some fans without tickets but it was not a significant factor. It is not blindly absolving them of blame, it has taken a long time to assess all the evidence and all the footage and come to that conclusion. *(I know it was the bishop of Liverpool and may not be completely unbiased) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisNedry Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 This again......sigh. Before anyone takes this the wrong way the authorities undoubtedly carry blame for Hillsborough and people should be bought to task for it. But when all is said and done if you turn up on time sober and with a ticket you're not giving the police the problem. Yes they miss managed it, the fact that Liverpool fans have been completely absolved of all blame is bizarre. Whoever said Heysel is nothing like Hillsborough your spot on, unlike the Liverpool fans involved in that South Yorkshire police weren't actually intentionally trying to hurt anyone. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandad. Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 I'm not saying you're wrong but your arguments make no sense. The simple fact of the matter is, if there hadn't have been thousands of ticketless fans there this disaster would not have happened, simple as that. Obviously lots of factors contributed to this but just blindly absolving all the supporters from blame is stupid. RIP. Not at all, if the gate wasn't opened it wouldn't of happened, if there was a bigger Police force it wouldn't of happened, if the Police weren't so reluctant in calling for emergency services lives would have been saved, yeah there was fans with no tickets but if you have the correct venue, procedures and personnel in place beforehand again this wouldn't of happened. You don't open a 'relief' gate on the grounds that there are a load of fans here with no tickets, simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 Of course if people behave like normal human beings it doesn't happen either. It's a damning indication of our current society that people think they are entitled to run into events they haven't paid for and then blame the authorities for opening a gate. If someone leaves their front door unlocked are you allowed to go in for a cup or tea? Really has been a shift in morals and taking responsibility for your own personal behaviour in this country over the last 50 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwell Pablo Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 Not at all, if the gate wasn't opened it wouldn't of happened, if there was a bigger Police force it wouldn't of happened, if the Police weren't so reluctant in calling for emergency services lives would have been saved, yeah there was fans with no tickets but if you have the correct venue, procedures and personnel in place beforehand again this wouldn't of happened. You don't open a 'relief' gate on the grounds that there are a load of fans here with no tickets, simple as that. Yeah no one is denying that, it's chicken and egg stuff though, clearly if it was managed better it would never of happened (their inability to get medical staff in quicker was the worst part of it, for me) Clearly though if they weren't given a situation to manage, I.e having to deal with large numbers of drunk, late supporters without a ticket, equally, it would never have happened. And then there's the third factor, Leppings Lane wasn't a suitable stand. Add the three together, you've got a rather serious problem. Quite why one is now being ignored is a mystery to me. Unless we're saying there weren't any drunk late supporters without tickets, if so fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandad. Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 Yeah no one is denying that, it's chicken and egg stuff though, clearly if it was managed better it would never of happened (their inability to get medical staff in quicker was the worst part of it, for me) Clearly though if they weren't given a situation to manage, I.e having to deal with large numbers of drunk, late supporters without a ticket, equally, it would never have happened. And then there's the third factor, Leppings Lane wasn't a suitable stand. Add the three together, you've got a rather serious problem. Quite why one is now being ignored is a mystery to me. Unless we're saying there weren't any drunk late supporters without tickets, if so fair enough. Whether they were drunk or not is no issue, there were fans with no tickets, being sober or not doesn't make any difference. The Police had the power that day, just like they would today, they could of delayed kick off, they could of had greater numbers that day to have greater control and they shouldn't of opened a gate if they knew there was fans without tickets. Pretty obvious. The game shouldn't of been there, just like in 1981 when we first seen evidence Leppings Lane couldn't hold a big crowd, how there wasn't serious injuries or fatalities there that day is a God send. Liverpool fans weren't so lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwell Pablo Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 Whether they were drunk or not is no issue, there were fans with no tickets, being sober or not doesn't make any difference. The Police had the power that day, just like they would today, they could of delayed kick off, they could of had greater numbers that day to have greater control and they shouldn't of opened a gate if they knew there was fans without tickets. Pretty obvious. The game shouldn't of been there, just like in 1981 when we first seen evidence Leppings Lane couldn't hold a big crowd, how there wasn't serious injuries or fatalities there that day is a God send. Liverpool fans weren't so lucky. It is, rather big difference managing a drunken mob arriving without tickets compared to a sober one so it's very far from a non issue. We all know the police messed up that day so you don't need to keep repeating yourself. The point being made to you is that if you turn up drunk late and without a ticket and start making a fuss about not getting in, jump fences, whatever else they did, your contributing to the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandad. Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 It is, rather big difference managing a drunken mob arriving without tickets compared to a sober one so it's very far from a non issue. We all know the police messed up that day so you don't need to keep repeating yourself. The point being made to you is that if you turn up drunk late and without a ticket and start making a fuss about not getting in, jump fences, whatever else they did, your contributing to the problem. Like you then when you keep repeating yourself about fans being drunk, made no difference what so ever. Either way fans with no tickets were going to try and get in, whether sober or not, they wanted entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwell Pablo Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 Like you then when you keep repeating yourself about fans being drunk, made no difference what so ever. Either way fans with no tickets were going to try and get in, whether sober or not, they wanted entry. Cause it does, it's much easier to manage a sober person than a drunk one, that's common sense. It's much less of an issue than turning up without a ticket which they were specifically told not to do yet did anyway I grant you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitchandro Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 Of course if people behave like normal human beings it doesn't happen either. It's a damning indication of our current society that people think they are entitled to run into events they haven't paid for and then blame the authorities for opening a gate. If someone leaves their front door unlocked are you allowed to go in for a cup or tea? Really has been a shift in morals and taking responsibility for your own personal behaviour in this country over the last 50 years. I don't really see how any of that is relevant if the total crowd in that end didn't exceed capacity. It's about as relevant as those people who say that standing is to blame. It's true, it wouldn't have happened in today's seated areas, but that's because of other differences. Sitting alone would not have prevented the disaster. It's also true that people should behave better in an ideal world, but that doesn't mean it would have actually prevented the disaster either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwell Pablo Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 I don't really see how any of that is relevant if the total crowd in that end didn't exceed capacity. It's about as relevant as those people who say that standing is to blame. It's true, it wouldn't have happened in today's seated areas, but that's because of other differences. Sitting alone would not have prevented the disaster. It's also true that people should behave better in an ideal world, but that doesn't mean it would have actually prevented the disaster either. Eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haydos Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 Like you then when you keep repeating yourself about fans being drunk, made no difference what so ever. Either way fans with no tickets were going to try and get in, whether sober or not, they wanted entry. How can you just dismiss stuff as 'making no difference'? These were contibuting factors, you can't really be telling me that the disposition of sober and drunk people is the same? Like you then when you keep repeating yourself about fans being drunk, made no difference what so ever. Either way fans with no tickets were going to try and get in, whether sober or not, they wanted entry. How can you just dismiss stuff as 'making no difference'? These were contibuting factors, you can't really be telling me that the disposition of sober and drunk people is the same? Like you then when you keep repeating yourself about fans being drunk, made no difference what so ever. Either way fans with no tickets were going to try and get in, whether sober or not, they wanted entry. How can you just dismiss stuff as 'making no difference'? These were contibuting factors, you can't really be telling me that the disposition of sober and drunk people is the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitchandro Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 Eh? I don't really see how any of that is relevant if the total crowd in that end didn't exceed capacity. Do you want it in capitals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 This again......sigh. Before anyone takes this the wrong way the authorities undoubtedly carry blame for Hillsborough and people should be bought to task for it. But when all is said and done if you turn up on time sober and with a ticket you're not giving the police the problem. Yes they miss managed it, the fact that Liverpool fans have been completely absolved of all blame is bizarre. Whoever said Heysel is nothing like Hillsborough your spot on, unlike the Liverpool fans involved in that South Yorkshire police weren't actually intentionally trying to hurt anyone. Spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwell Pablo Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 Do you want it in capitals? I'd like it clarifying, as to why you think Leppings Lane wasn't over capacity when Liverpool fan's were being pushed up against the fence, when it obviously was. Massively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 Like you then when you keep repeating yourself about fans being drunk, made no difference what so ever. Either way fans with no tickets were going to try and get in, whether sober or not, they wanted entry. Then they were complete fvcking cocks. I want an XBOX One but I'm not going to hover around GAME trying to get in to the stockroom to get one for free. The police ballsed it up and it's disgusting that they tried to cover it up, it's disgusting that the Sun made up lies about Scourers to make it a more outrageous story, it's disgusting that the fans were penned in by fences, etc. But all Manny and Matt are saying - very rightly - is that all of that doesn't absolve the cvnts trying to break the law, putting everyone else at risk. That doesn't mean ALL Liverpool fans are arseholes but there are arseholes in every collection of people on the planet and unfortunately some of them cause terrible tragedies. You don't blame the police for the London riots, do you? Nor do you blame all Croydon or Tottenham youths. Just a bunch of arseholes ruining an innocent occasion for everyone. The police may have fvcked up at Hillsborough but they shouldn't have had to have made a decision in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitchandro Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 I'd like it clarifying, as to why you think Leppings Lane wasn't over capacity when Liverpool fan's were being pushed up against the fence, when it obviously was. Massively. It's been determined that it wasn't over capacity, only the middle pens were. The end in general wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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