Mack Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 If they opened the gates and people flooded in how do they know how many were in there? They dont, it's a Whitewash. I'm old enough to remember the actual events. There were more people trying to get in than could ever fit in that end. This event is from a different era. All these enquiries can say is that there "is no proof" ticket less fans exacerbated the problem, but how could there be any proof? Everyone should share some of the blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purpleronnie Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 They dont, it's a Whitewash. I'm old enough to remember the actual events. There were more people trying to get in than could ever fit in that end. This event is from a different era. All these enquiries can say is that there "is no proof" ticket less fans exacerbated the problem, but how could there be any proof? Everyone should share some of the blame. why? Its been proven poor planning, more health and safety and poor policing did cause the tragedy, why on earth should ticketless fans have equal blame when theres no proof...you might as well say fat people were the cause...blame all fat people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom17LCFC Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 I remember getting a magazine in 2009 dedicated to the 20th anniversary of Hillsborough. Really brought it to life for me, couldn't believe how bad it actually was. It mentioned about The Sun printing headlines the next day about the Liverpool fans robbing and pissing on the dead bodies and also fighting the policemen who were trying to help. After a while The Sun tried to apologise to Liverpool to try and gain some circulation back in that area of the country, and someone from the Liverpool board asked them to print the headline on the front page 'WE LIED'. Being the classy newspaper the sun is, they failed to do so. Glad to see the facts are fianlly being released. I know Liverpool fans aren't completely blameless, but you can't rule accidental death due to the incompetence of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basildon Fox Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 They dont, it's a Whitewash. I'm old enough to remember the actual events. There were more people trying to get in than could ever fit in that end. This event is from a different era. All these enquiries can say is that there "is no proof" ticket less fans exacerbated the problem, but how could there be any proof? Everyone should share some of the blame. As far as I can see the police chose not to open the gates to the end pens which had low capacity. Had they done this then a disaster could and would have been averted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daggers Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 why? Its been proven poor planning, more health and safety and poor policing did cause the tragedy, why on earth should ticketless fans have equal blame when theres no proof...you might as well say fat people were the cause...blame all fat people? I blame Eastern Europeans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexikokopops Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 No one really seems to be concerned about the terrifying extent to which senior police doctored reports, or how blood samples were taken from survivors in hospital to search for alcohol and, when none was found, criminal records were scoured to try and find any evidence to help exonerate the police and entirely blame the fans. No matter how much extent you think however many ticketless fans had on the outcome, the above is a slightly disturbing and terrifying state of affairs which, for me, is amongst the most concerning things of the report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Good...but some it seems are still wanting to blame liverpool fans despite the evidence...from this thread alone. Some of my close family were at the game and they have always said the Liverpool fans were at fault. How they can be "completely cleared" when it's known people without tickets were jumping over the gate is unbelievable. Sad thing is they were still doing similar things in Athens. And some of the stuff printed by the Sun was true despite what everyone says. Edit: sorry Mack didn't realise you had already brought up Athens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basildon Fox Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 No one really seems to be concerned about the terrifying extent to which senior police doctored reports, or how blood samples were taken from survivors in hospital to search for alcohol and, when none was found, criminal records were scoured to try and find any evidence to help exonerate the police and entirely blame the fans. No matter how much extent you think however many ticketless fans had on the outcome, the above is a slightly disturbing and terrifying state of affairs which, for me, is amongst the most concerning things of the report. Agreed. I imagine that they would have known they had royally ****ed up and is in human nature tried desperately to find another angle of blame to deflect it from themselves. Just how far they went though is sickening. As an aside the call for standing at football must be looked at asap. There is quite clearly no proof that standing in a football ground had caused this but many bad decisions by people responsible for the safety that fateful day had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkon84 Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Im not trying to wind things up here or anything but didnt the main influx and crushing come after the third gate was opened to aleviate pressure on the overcrowded turnstyles. This was because the turnstyles were out of date and slow. If this was the case, why didnt it happen in the Forest end as well? Like I said, Im not trying to wind things up, and im not expert on Hillsborough, like some people here may be. Just a simple question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daggers Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 No one really seems to be concerned about the terrifying extent to which senior police doctored reports, or how blood samples were taken from survivors in hospital to search for alcohol and, when none was found, criminal records were scoured to try and find any evidence to help exonerate the police and entirely blame the fans. No matter how much extent you think however many ticketless fans had on the outcome, the above is a slightly disturbing and terrifying state of affairs which, for me, is amongst the most concerning things of the report. But the ticketless fans, Alex! What about the ticketless fans? There were hundreds of thousands of them, and they had been to pubs, and half my family were there and saw it, and the Sun said... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkon84 Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 But the ticketless fans, Alex! What about the ticketless fans? There were hundreds of thousands of them, and they had been to pubs, and half my family were there and saw it, and the Sun said... Really adding to the debate there *applauds* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21st Century Fox Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 What's to be gained from the whitewash? Cameron on why today's report matters both for Merseyside and the rest of the country. ... Today’s report is black and white. The Liverpool fans “were not the cause of the disasterâ€. The Panel has quite simply found “no evidence†in support of allegations of “exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans â€no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium†and “no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying.†... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basildon Fox Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Really adding to the debate there *applauds* You may be expecting too much if you are wanting anything other than an obnoxious comment from some... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan LCFC Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Here's my thoughts overall then. Liverpool fans; If Leicester were playing a semi final at Hillsbrough against Bolton, we'd inevitably have sold loads and if you had missed out on a ticket, you would go if you heard there were more on sale. I would, and you all know you would. Whilst I think the fact too many Liverpool fans being there has caused the problem, I'm not necessarily sure it's their fault, I think they've been largely mis-lead. The Police; Handled things absolutely horrendously and they're a bunch of absolute cowards for not fessing up, they've basically put their jobs over the truth of deaths, I simply don't understand how they can turn up to work every day. The Sun; They should do a NOTW, I wouldn't miss them for one second. Absolute scum of the earth for making things up like that and as I said earlier, I won't be buying it again, not that I ever bought it before. Sheffield Wednesday; Aren't 100% blameless. Got their allocations for the game wrong. I think theirs was more stupidity, rather than malice like the others. Finally, today I believe it's not really our place to comment. I'm contradicting myself seeing as I've just given my views on things - but no matter what you all think about Liverpool, no matter how despicable you may find them as a club, people with more info than any of us will EVER get on it have today cleared them of wrong-doing. I'm not one for buying into what the authorities say but I really do think it's best to leave it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welck12 Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 t mentioned about The Sun printing headlines the next day about the Liverpool fans robbing and pissing on the dead bodies and also fighting the policemen who were trying to help. After a while The Sun tried to apologise to Liverpool to try and gain some circulation back in that area of the country, and someone from the Liverpool board asked them to print the headline on the front page 'WE LIED'. Being the classy newspaper the sun is, they failed to do so. That was Daglish, its in his autobiography Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom17LCFC Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 That was Daglish, its in his autobiography Ah, has the same effect though. I've really gone off Dalglish the last few years, but massive respect to him for the way he handled everything post-Hillsborough. Didn't he make an effort to attend every funeral of the 96?? Sometimes attending more than 1 a day? Credit to him for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan LCFC Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 I think it again proves money is the root of all evil. The police did it to save their jobs for money, I can see why they did it but it's so, so wrong. The sun did what they did, disregarding everything, to sell more copies and to make more money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScouseFox Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Ah, has the same effect though. I've really gone off Dalglish the last few years, but massive respect to him for the way he handled everything post-Hillsborough. Didn't he make an effort to attend every funeral of the 96?? Sometimes attending more than 1 a day? Credit to him for that. The squad was represented at every funeral, not sure if Dalglish went to them all but himself and members of the team etc were attending 3, 4 or even 5 funerals a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 As far as I can see the police chose not to open the gates to the end pens which had low capacity. Had they done this then a disaster could and would have been averted. I agree It would have been overcrowded but no one would have died probably. In addition the police on the pitch thought it was a pitch invasion and started stopping people from escaping the crush. The police did a dreadful job that day, and could have avoided anyone getting killed. The thousands pushing outside who were too many and a proportion without tickets are also a factor, that was my point. I know it's a delicate subject and those who died inside didn't deserve it, but equally what has come out today in my opinion is a little without full balance. In fact almost like the exact opposite of what came out in the first place. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripeyfox Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 I'm sure there were plenty of "tickletless" fans. I myself have been to "all ticket" games around the time and always managed to get a ticket on the gate, one way or another. So even if they did contribute to the disaster, the police should have been prepared for it. It is my understanding that when the sides met at Hillsborough in the previous year's Cup Semi Final, the police had a cordon in the streets around the stadium to prevent those without tickets getting near to the stadium - (this tactic has been employed at Filbert Street before - I don't know if anyone else can remember but I'm sure I can remember having to show a ticket to a copper on the way down to the ground). This tactic, used in 1988 was not used in 1989. If it had have been, then it is likely that the initial crush would not have occoured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellend Sebastian Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Well f*** me backwards, Kelvin Mackenzie has actually apologised at last, claiming "I published in good faith and I am sorry that it was so wrong." I doubt he ever published anything in good faith, the massive willy puller. Contradicts what the bloke who actually wrote the article said earlier this week - he said that the stuff in it wasn't presented as gospel and that they were quoting supposed witnesses, and then old Kelvin gets hold of it and changes the headline as 'THE TRUTH' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattolcfc Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Not read the other pages but the one thing you can take from this report is that it has nothing to do with terracing and standing. I hope the football authorities look at this and start to take note of 'safe standing' and maybe, just maybe we one day will see standing back at football matches in the top two tiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCFC_FAN_1995 Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Fvck all will happen now anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 There were loads without tickets trying to get in. Liverpool fans were and are still known for doing that. Their tactic was to turn up late and surge the turn styles because they knew under the pressure of it the authorities would just open the gates and let them in to avoid a catastrophe. So what you had was a situation where thousands of fans some with and some without tickets were all converging on the turn styles at once. I agree that the police were at fault for how they handled that huge crowd, but there is blame on all sides in my opinion. Just to add to this, the Champions League final in Athens 2007, just 5 years ago, as a half Greek I read the Greek papers and watch the news. There was loads of Liverpool fans without tickets that jumped the fences around the Olympic stadium and got in, and the Greek Stewards were left with hundreds of Liverpool fans WITH tickets outside the stadium they could not let in as it was now full. I've just checked my facts on this, it was 5000 fans who they estimate jumped the fences without tickets in Athens... I'm sorry, but you cannot just state as fact that their were loads of ticketless fans, and they charged the gates, especially if an independent report has just been published stating the opposite. What happened at Athens was disgusting, and the people boasting about it to cameras at the airport coming home should have been rounded up and shot, but that, and any other time when they are proven to have done it, doesn't mean that was the case at Hillsborough, reading about the report just highlights how monumentally stupid and at fault the authorities were, and they used the reputation of Liverpool fans to hide the blame and protect themselves. No one really seems to be concerned about the terrifying extent to which senior police doctored reports, or how blood samples were taken from survivors in hospital to search for alcohol and, when none was found, criminal records were scoured to try and find any evidence to help exonerate the police and entirely blame the fans. No matter how much extent you think however many ticketless fans had on the outcome, the above is a slightly disturbing and terrifying state of affairs which, for me, is amongst the most concerning things of the report. I am, it is disgusting, corruption of the highest order, and the cvnts in the press who lapped it up and helped spread this crap are the worst of the lot. Speaking of vile cvnts in the press... Well f*** me backwards, Kelvin Mackenzie has actually apologised at last, claiming "I published in good faith and I am sorry that it was so wrong." I doubt he ever published anything in good faith, the massive willy puller. Contradicts what the bloke who actually wrote the article said earlier this week - he said that the stuff in it wasn't presented as gospel and that they were quoting supposed witnesses, and then old Kelvin gets hold of it and changes the headline as 'THE TRUTH' It is also disgusting it has taken 23 years to get the truth out and an apology and a retraction from this cvnt and the Sun, I bet he was paid off handsomely for covering the arses of the police and others. I love the fact that nobody in Liverpool buys the Sun, it has a circulation of about 1%, wish that was true of everywhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basildon Fox Posted 12 September 2012 Share Posted 12 September 2012 Fvck all will happen now anyway There will have to be charges aimed at some. There has been too much investigative work for there not to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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