Hillsborough: Search For The Truth

[Alexikokopops]

Irrespective of who was to blame for what happened it's the behaviour of senior police afterwards that I find most disturbing (but not at all surprising). How are we ever supposed to trust them when it has been proven they have told outright lies and doctored evidence on such a massive scale? Is anyone naive enough to believe they don't do similar things on a regular basis? All they care about is looking after their own and the more senior the officer the more their shit stinks. Scum. And to think my mum wanted me to enlist!! I'd rather sell my soul for a thimble of piss.

Yeah, BlueBrett is right. The report says Liverpool fans were not to blame, but regardless of the verdict people have made their minds up over the past 23 years. The more important part of this is the way the police went about blaming them when clearly there was massive police error and fault.

The way they tested dead people to see if they were drunk so could be blamed, and after finding they weren't they went through records to see if there was any with previous convictions who they could then blame instead. Not on, that.

My post in page 2. I'm still baffled that people seem more concerned about the part that ticketless fans played rather than the hooning cover-up by the Police. It's terrifying what they got away with until someone started looking at things again

No one really seems to be concerned about the terrifying extent to which senior police doctored reports, or how blood samples were taken from survivors in hospital to search for alcohol and, when none was found, criminal records were scoured to try and find any evidence to help exonerate the police and entirely blame the fans.

No matter how much extent you think however many ticketless fans had on the outcome, the above is a slightly disturbing and terrifying state of affairs which, for me, is amongst the most concerning things of the report.

[Kitchandro]

If a prison warden escorting a prisoner gets overpowered and the prisoner then escapes and kills somebody, is it the wardens fault or the prisoner?

Yes, the warden is not entirely free of blame, but it is the prisoner who has done wrong. The warden just made a mistake that became very costly.

Warden = The Police

Prisoner = Liverpool fans who rushed through the gate trying to get in for free.

Woah woah woah

Liverpool fans trying to sneak into a football match is hardly the same as someone genuinely trying to kill someone. They were not expected to be responsible for other people's lives, they were there just trying to have a good time. Maybe they contributed to the disaster but it's hardly fair to blame them when they're not in charge of the situation.

Secondly, it's one thing for authorities (and this is an important word, it's the authorities who need to take responsibility in big events like these) to make terrible mistakes, but the thing that has obviously made people so angry is them trying to shift the blame.

Not only has that left a sense of injustice to the suffering families but it's changed football for the worse, and I'm not trying to be insensitive there.

[Super_horns]

We're not Liverpool fans favourites this evening..

Going to be some serious chunks taken out of our fans the next time we play each other.

Be harsh...you are just fans of the club who play at the ground where police made some tragically fatal errors - you hardly caused the incident yourselves unless there have been previous post Hillsborough comments between the 2 before.

Cannot say I am surprised the Sun tried to make up false allegations..they still do it now.

[davieG]

BBC

Margaret Thatcher had concerns that a report into the Hillsborough disaster constituted a "devastating criticism" of police, newly released papers show.

The then prime minister made the remark in response to a civil servant's memo about the conclusions of the Taylor report into the 1989 tragedy.

The memo said then Home Secretary Douglas Hurd intended to welcome the "broad thrust" of the report.

But the PM urged him to welcome its "thoroughness and recommendations".

The details are contained in previously unpublished cabinet papers about the disaster, in which 96 Liverpool football fans lost their lives.

David Cameron issued a "profound apology" on Wednesday after an independent report into previously unseen documents showed the police had failed to do enough to help victims and had also tried to blame Liverpool fans.

'Enormity of disaster'

Among the new documents released on Wednesday was a memo from a senior civil servant to Baroness Thatcher about the interim report into the tragedy by Lord Justice Taylor.

She was told the August 1989 report had found that the chief superintendent in charge at Hillsborough had "behaved in an indecisive fashion" and senior officers had infuriated the judge by seeking to "duck all responsibility when giving evidence" to his inquiry.

The memo made it clear that Mr Hurd thought South Yorkshire Chief Constable Peter Wright would have to resign, adding: "The enormity of the disaster, and the extent to which the inquiry blames the police, demand this."

And it added: "The defensive, and at times close to deceitful, behaviour by the senior officers in South Yorkshire sounds depressingly familiar. Too many senior policemen seem to lack the capacity or character to perceive and admit faults in their organisation."

The report, the memo added, would "sap confidence in the police force" and could encourage aggressive behaviour by fans who would feel "vindicated" by its conclusions.

But in a handwritten note, Mrs Thatcher made it clear that she did not want to give the government's full backing to Lord Taylor's criticisms, only to the way in which he had conducted his inquiry and made recommendations for action.

She wrote: "What do we mean by 'welcoming the broad thrust of the report'? The broad thrust is devastating criticism of the police. Is that for us to welcome? Surely we welcome the thoroughness of the report and its recommendations - M.T."

Italia '90

The prime minister had already been warned the interim report was "very damning" of police but attached "little or no blame" to Liverpool fans.

The papers also provide detail about the logistics of Baroness Thatcher's visit to Sheffield on the day after the Hillsborough disaster, and her attendance at a memorial service in Liverpool, but do not reveal what briefing she was given by South Yorkshire Police.

The papers also show the government briefly considered withdrawing from the 1990 World Cup in Italy in response to the Hillsborough tragedy.

The possibility was discussed by a government committee amid fears that the tournament would provide a "natural focus" for hooliganism.

In a letter to Mrs Thatcher in September 1989, the then deputy prime minister Geoffrey Howe said it would be "premature to reach a firm view" on the team's participation.

But he wrote that should England pull out "the likelihood is that the determined hooligans will make their way to Italy anyway and find a different cause to champion".

England went on to reach the semi-finals of Italia 90.

[Col city fan]

Quite simply, one of the biggest cover ups in British Political history?

Scapegoating appears endemic to society.

This whole business shows just what can happen when assumptions are made and conclusions drawn based upon insufficient evidence.

I think yesterday was the tip of the iceberg and the ramifications of this report could be vast.

[davieG]

Quite simply, one of the biggest cover ups in British Political history?

Scapegoating appears endemic to society.

This whole business shows just what can happen when assumptions are made and conclusions drawn based upon insufficient evidence.

I think yesterday was the tip of the iceberg and the ramifications of this report could be vast.

Nothing will change, it took 23 years for this to happen even then it wouldn't have done so without the 140K signatures, the government were forced into it and will simply slide back into avoidance, half truths and damn right lies before you can say RIP.

I also doubt it's the biggest cover up in British Political History.

[Col city fan]

Nothing will change, it took 23 years for this to happen even then it wouldn't have done so without the 140K signatures, the government were forced into it and will simply slide back into avoidance, half truths and damn right lies before you can say RIP.

I also doubt it's the biggest cover up in British Political History.

I did say 'one of' Dave...

And I don't agree with you this time. I sincerely hope that transparency in political and especially policing activities becomes more profound after this report.

I think people are really shocked at the extent of this cover up and this will have a knock-on effect.

I may be naive and you may be right. But I reckon this report teaches two things. Firstly, to continue to campaign for justice is so important. Secondly that scapegoating is psycho-socially incredibly damning. Without adequate evidence and truth, assumptions and conclusions need to be put on the back burner.

[stripeyfox]

My post in page 2. I'm still baffled that people seem more concerned about the part that ticketless fans played rather than the hooning cover-up by the Police. It's terrifying what they got away with until someone started looking at things again

Some people still believe the smokescreen that the police and media cooked up. At times over the past couple of decades it may have appeared the Liverpool fans were overly mawkish; that they should have "moved on". But you can see now they were obviosly consumed by a grave sense of injustice. People were killed and the authorities set out to blame them for it. Taking blood samples and searching for criminal records is an utter scandal.

[davieG]

I did say 'one of' Dave...

And I don't agree with you this time. I sincerely hope that transparency in political and especially policing activities becomes more profound after this report.

I think people are really shocked at the extent of this cover up and this will have a knock-on effect.

I may be naive and you may be right. But I reckon this report teaches two things. Firstly, to continue to campaign for justice is so important. Secondly that scapegoating is psycho-socially incredibly damning. Without adequate evidence and truth, assumptions and conclusions need to be put on the back burner.

This shows that it is damning for those that were responsible then, the current government and even the current police can argue that was then this is now we're different, we don't have to believe them for them to blindly carry on doing what they're doing because they think it's correct.

I seen so many things introduced in my lifetime both politically and in business because the people introducing them thought they were right even though history has and the future will often prove them wrong because they only see the narrow upside of things that matches their personal 'taste' and not the big picture.

[welck12]

I told a few in Ormskirk earlier this year, the reaction wavered from "we know" and agreement from generally Everton fans to virtually being spat on by those red cheeky chappies.

I didnt say the Sun told the truth, I said one part of it was confirmed to me by someone there about an Ambulance being robbed.

Ormskirk isnt in Liverpool, its Lancashire

[Darkon84]

Ormskirk isnt in Liverpool, its Lancashire

Still only about 10 miles from Liverpool and you can bet your ass there are more Liverpool fans there than there are WIgan fans (despite Wigan being slightly closer). If you're 'up North', does that mean you cant support Leicester as you arent in Leicestershire?

[welck12]

Still only about 10 miles from Liverpool and you can bet your ass there are more Liverpool fans there than there are WIgan fans (despite Wigan being slightly closer). If you're 'up North', does that mean you cant support Leicester as you arent in Leicestershire?

My comment was regarding the fact MattP said he went to Liverpool and spoke to people there, stating that Ormskirk was in Liverpool, which its not.

[Darkon84]

My comment was regarding the fact MattP said he went to Liverpool and spoke to people there, stating that Ormskirk was in Liverpool, which its not.

Didnt think he said it was in Liverpool, just that he spoke to Everton and Liverpool fans there.

Not that it matters anyway

[Captain...]

Here's a thought, IF you took away all the police, the sun and the Sheffield turn-style operators and security. Would the Hillsborough disaster have happened?

No, I'm not sure if that is your point, but no it wouldn't have happened.

I've found the whole sense of self-righteousness and self-vindication from Scousers pretty distasteful today. They talk of wanting 'the truth' and wanting 'justice', with all of their chants and slogans of 'justice for the 96'. Ask any one of them what justice is and they don't have a clue. Because if justice was being absolved of any wrongdoing then they've got that today, yet now they say today is 'the truth' and now they still want this 'justice'.

Anyone with any sense can see that the Liverpool fans clearly contributed to this. The problem is that you can't account for crowd mentality and 'the crowd' can't be held accountable for anything. Every time there's any report of violence at Leicester matches people immediately say things like: "they're not real fans", "they bring the name of the club into disrepute" etc. So 'the Liverpool fans' can't be held accountable. But individuals amongst that group can be blamed. There were clearly ticketless fans, clearly fans travelling to Sheffield and hoping to get in.

And that lack of accountability is what is the problem. I went to Wireless a few weeks ago and there must have been a big mis-calculation of how many people would turn up to watch one of the acts. We got there 10 minutes before he was due start and getting near the front would have been impossible. Some guy came on stage: "Everyone needs to take a step back, there are people at the front here getting crushed and feeling uncomfortable. Everybody step back. If you want to see this performance step back". At the time I was genuinely concerned another incident might occur and I was nowhere near the front. Yet still there were people walking in all happy, pushing their way to the front oblivious or not caring that they were making the problem worse. All they cared about was a good view.

At Hillsborough there were no doubt people thinking along the same lines: "If I turn up to the turnstile and we all push I'll be let in to watch the match". But you can't blame a whole group for this because in this group there were people (like me at Wireless) not doing the same and with good intentions. That is why no report can find 'Liverpool fans' as the cause. What people seem to forget is that there was a crush at the turnstiles, that 'a Hillsborough' could have happened outside the ground before it had the chance to inside.

Unfortunately, the police clearly made a mistake. They had good intentions in relieving the pressure outside but what people did after they opened that gate they couldn't/didn't control. One of those main failings was directing people away from the central pens. But in that environment how many would have just ignored that and headed for those pens where they'd get the best views anyway? If the 'justice' is in holding the police that made those decisions accountable in the form of them now facing punishment then I would feel for them. They were maybe incompetent but their decisions were not malicious. But it almost feels like Scousers want a witch-hunt now.

Obviously the cover-ups and the coverage by The Sun are scandalous, that's where the real wrongdoing lies. And the saddest aspect of the findings is how many people could have had a chance of survival. But the motivations for the things that stopped this happening look worse when viewed today. This happened at the height of mass disorder inside stadiums and hooliganism, at a time when football fans had reputations. I'm sure plenty of us, if we were there when this was developing, might have originally suspected disorder over disaster. Communication channels were not what they were now, and today the chances of the same mistakes being made would be lower. And I saw mistakes because they are what were made and this was, ultimately, an accident. A tragic accident.

So ultimately, some shocking findings no doubt. But the whole air around this, and the whole air that has surrounded this for 23 years, is wrong. Let's not forget that these are the same Scousers willing to laud their collective lack of wrongdoing today yet never mentioning getting English clubs banned from Europe after Heysel. We all know that the Scousers love a tragedy and I fear today will only add more fuel to their fire.

In conclusion:

Hillsborough was a terrible accident. Mistakes were made by both individuals amongst the Liverpool support and the police. The reaction to the event wasn't as good as it should have been and some of the conduct from certain people/organisations post-event were awful. But let's learn the lessons, let's not demand 'justice' and create a witch-hunt. You have your 'truth' now please let it lie.

I'm sorry but this is just clueless, read again the reports as to why it happened.

There were ticketless fans there, but all the evidence states that their involvement was but a very, very small part of the tragic events of that day.

It was caused by a weak, panicky police response led by a weak, panicky Superintendent. There was an identical fixture twelve months earlier with identical problems regarding numbers of ticketless fans, but the 1988 semi-final policing was led by an officer experienced in high profile football operations. The 1989 semi-final was overseen by a newbie.

It is actually known that the stand as a whole was not over capacity, the problem was that the crowd was poorly distributed. The pens either side of where the deadly crush occurred were nearly empty; had the gates to that central pen been closed as they should have been, the 1989 semi-final would be long forgotten by all but Liverpool and Forest fans today. The argument that this could have happened to Leicester City fans is probably true, if you shovel 5000 fans into fenced pens built for 2000 with pens either side lying empty, you're going to have problems even if all of them have tickets.

The roll of blame also lies with a culture that neglected the safety of all fans in favour of controlling them, an addiction that football authorities have still to relinquish. The police were hopelessly incompetent and Sheffield Wednesday had mismanaged their stadium for years, hence the lack of a safety certificate. The Liverpool fans are a long way down my and the inquiry's list of people to blame, irrespective of the way they'd behaved in the past.

Thank fvck for this.

To reiterate, and remember this was a different era, unreserved standing areas, not sanitised reserved seating.

People couldn't get in quickly, causing a crush, to alleviate the crush an exit gate was opened, the fans with tickets entered, showing their tickets. The entered quickly and in a rush because the match was going to start, when you enter the stand you go through to the entrance to the middle 2 pens, so naturally everyone headed in there. Normally these pens are closed when they reach capacity and the fans are funnelled to the side pens, this didn't happen, so people kept on piling in and nobody could get out.

The stand was not over capacity, but the fans meant for all 4 pens ended up in 2 pens, that is what caused the problem, that and the fact that they couldn't get out, and were even prevented from getting out by police/security thinking it was a pitch invasion.

This eye witness account should make it clearer: http://www1.skysport...ecalls-disaster

There may have been some ticketless fans in there, and the crush outside may have been caused by over-exuberance and excited fans desperate to get in to see the match, but that is not what caused the tragedy, nobody rushed the gates outside, it was just weight of numbers caused by bad planning, it could and should have been prevented, and it could have happened to any set of fans.

Liverpool fans are no angels, and Heysel and Athens are things that they must take blame for. But not this, and anyone who doesn't believe that just needs to read the reports, put your bias towards Liverpool, the city and fans aside, and just read the facts.

[Col city fan]

No, I'm not sure if that is your point, but no it wouldn't have happened.

I'm sorry but this is just clueless, read again the reports as to why it happened.

Thank fvck for this.

To reiterate, and remember this was a different era, unreserved standing areas, not sanitised reserved seating.

People couldn't get in quickly, causing a crush, to alleviate the crush an exit gate was opened, the fans with tickets entered, showing their tickets. The entered quickly and in a rush because the match was going to start, when you enter the stand you go through to the entrance to the middle 2 pens, so naturally everyone headed in there. Normally these pens are closed when they reach capacity and the fans are funnelled to the side pens, this didn't happen, so people kept on piling in and nobody could get out.

The stand was not over capacity, but the fans meant for all 4 pens ended up in 2 pens, that is what caused the problem, that and the fact that they couldn't get out, and were even prevented from getting out by police/security thinking it was a pitch invasion.

This eye witness account should make it clearer: http://www1.skysport...ecalls-disaster

There may have been some ticketless fans in there, and the crush outside may have been caused by over-exuberance and excited fans desperate to get in to see the match, but that is not what caused the tragedy, nobody rushed the gates outside, it was just weight of numbers caused by bad planning, it could and should have been prevented, and it could have happened to any set of fans.

Liverpool fans are no angels, and Heysel and Athens are things that they must take blame for. But not this, and anyone who doesn't believe that just needs to read the reports, put your bias towards Liverpool, the city and fans aside, and just read the facts.

[General Smuts]

The Panel for anyone interested.

http://hillsborough....ependent-panel/

The only oddity in there is Peter Sissons.

Also - you are an ill informed embarrassment to the millions of other sperm that had a chance of fertilisation.

[Happy Fox]

Tony Barrett â€@TonyBarretTimes

Interesting that Royal & Sun Alliance (Sheff Wed's insurers) refused to release documents to the HIP. Make your own minds up about that.

sportingintelligence â€@sportingintel

It seems Sheff Wed wanted compensation from FA over lost revenue for semi-final being 'cancelled'.http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/FFA000004890001.pdf …

[Bellend Sebastian]

Lefty post alert. Good article though, I thought

http://kerlarsenickoff.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/dont-let-the-scouse-bashers-off-the-hook/

[21st Century Fox]

There's a really good discussion about the report at the beginning of Football Weekly Extra...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/audio/2012/sep/13/football-weekly-extra-podcast-hillsborough-report

[Corky]

Hux, were you there on the day?

[Vestan Pance]

Complete and utter bullshit. Never heard of City fans jumping gates back then and we certainly don't now.

More I see this the more I think it's about Cameron and him trying to prove the Tories have a heart, to suggest there was no excessive drunkeness or ticketless fans in just absolutely laughable, seriously struggling to control myself on that one.

"Justice" - what a load of absolute cobblers.

Just for a bit of balance, do you remember the City vs Oxford match 1991? It may come as a surprise but not everyone who was in the kop end paid to get in that day.

[RedHux]

Hux, were you there on the day?

Yep.

Still got the ticket stub somewhere.

Edit:

[purpleronnie]

Just for a bit of balance, do you remember the City vs Oxford match 1991? It may come as a surprise but not everyone who was in the kop end paid to get in that day.

Matt was there he counted all the drunks and ticketless fans so he knows more than all the people who have investigated over the last 20+ years and gained huge amounts of evidence to vindicate the fans...but you should dismiss all that evidence and listen to matts guesswork.

[Bryn]

Yep.

Still got the ticket stub somewhere.

Edit:

Piece of history that.

[RedHux]

Yea, £6.00 for an FA cup semi final....happy days.

Kind of.