Hillsborough: Search For The Truth

[Tom17LCFC]

I just find it laughable really how people are so intent on focussing on one part of the overall disaster without giving any real thought to all of the other factors at play, which it would appear had a far greater influence on the outcome and, more importantly, had far great implications. But no let's not talk about that, let's just blame all those ticketless fans.

I agree, I said in my previous post that I think it's largely down to the policing, stewarding, infrastructure etc. If all that had been sorted, then regardless of how many ticketless fans turned up, the disaster would never have happened.

[Guest MattP]

It could have been Leicester City, not Liverpool playing that day and some of us would then have been in that pen.

Complete and utter bullshit. Never heard of City fans jumping gates back then and we certainly don't now.

More I see this the more I think it's about Cameron and him trying to prove the Tories have a heart, to suggest there was no excessive drunkeness or ticketless fans in just absolutely laughable, seriously struggling to control myself on that one.

"Justice" - what a load of absolute cobblers.

[Guest MattP]

I've found the whole sense of self-righteousness and self-vindication from Scousers pretty distasteful today.

Personally found the banners they have held up in the Kop mocking Everton after they were banned from Europe because of their murderous behaviour at Heysel more offensive than what they have said recently.

[Haydos]

I'm not saying don't blame them. I'm not offering an opinion on whether the ticketless fans were to blame because I haven't read the report and I wasn't there.

I'm just highighting that some of the posts on here are so blatantly "Scousist" that you get the impression that regardless of what the report says they will always primarily blame Liverpool fans and not really consider the unbelievable cover up and other disgraceful actions taken by the police amongst others.

Is anyone 'primarily blaming' ticketless Liverpool fans? Seems like those that have mentioned them are saying they were partly responsible.

[C-man]

I watched the programme the other night on ITV and, as always when watching, listening and reading about the disaster, it made me so, so angry.

I have to say I wasn't aware the Taylor report had said there was not an abnormal amount of ticketless fans - I was under the impression there were shedloads and without them the disaster would not have been nearly as bad and may have claimed fewer lives. The programme pretty much illustrated to me how ill-informed I had been previously and how every decision the senior police officers made that day was fatally and criminally misjudged.

Why didn't they send all officers to the turnstiles outside Leppings Lane to thin out the crowd outside - make a police 'crush barrier' as it were? Well we know now that they had far too few police radios available so communication such as this would have been impossible.

Why did they not listen to fans such as Trevor Hicks who had clearly cried for help having seen from the outside pens that something was wrong in 3 and 4?! How could they possibly have thought it was a pitch invasion?

Why didn't they let more ambulances onto the pitch?

My anger regarding the above doesn't even come close to the fury I felt when hearing more on the Kevin Williams case. The ineptitude of the coppers who told WPC Martin to leave Kevin to die is worthy of life in my opinion.

Whilst Liverpool fans clearly can't be exonerated in full because some did turn up ticketless, late and showed absolutely no understanding themselves of what was happening in front of them, they are indisputably far less to blame than Duckenfield et al.

[Bilo]

There were ticketless fans there, but all the evidence states that their involvement was but a very, very small part of the tragic events of that day.

It was caused by a weak, panicky police response led by a weak, panicky Superintendent. There was an identical fixture twelve months earlier with identical problems regarding numbers of ticketless fans, but the 1988 semi-final policing was led by an officer experienced in high profile football operations. The 1989 semi-final was overseen by a newbie.

It is actually known that the stand as a whole was not over capacity, the problem was that the crowd was poorly distributed. The pens either side of where the deadly crush occurred were nearly empty; had the gates to that central pen been closed as they should have been, the 1989 semi-final would be long forgotten by all but Liverpool and Forest fans today. The argument that this could have happened to Leicester City fans is probably true, if you shovel 5000 fans into fenced pens built for 2000 with pens either side lying empty, you're going to have problems even if all of them have tickets.

The roll of blame also lies with a culture that neglected the safety of all fans in favour of controlling them, an addiction that football authorities have still to relinquish. The police were hopelessly incompetent and Sheffield Wednesday had mismanaged their stadium for years, hence the lack of a safety certificate. The Liverpool fans are a long way down my and the inquiry's list of people to blame, irrespective of the way they'd behaved in the past.

[Guest BlueBrett]

Irrespective of who was to blame for what happened it's the behaviour of senior police afterwards that I find most disturbing (but not at all surprising). How are we ever supposed to trust them when it has been proven they have told outright lies and doctored evidence on such a massive scale? Is anyone naive enough to believe they don't do similar things on a regular basis? All they care about is looking after their own and the more senior the officer the more their shit stinks. Scum. And to think my mum wanted me to enlist!! I'd rather sell my soul for a thimble of piss.

[ScouseFox]

Yeah, BlueBrett is right. The report says Liverpool fans were not to blame, but regardless of the verdict people have made their minds up over the past 23 years. The more important part of this is the way the police went about blaming them when clearly there was massive police error and fault.

The way they tested dead people to see if they were drunk so could be blamed, and after finding they weren't they went through records to see if there was any with previous convictions who they could then blame instead. Not on, that.

[Stig the Lawnmower]

Some of the comments in this thread are the most depressing and wrongheaded I have ever read on this forum and they reflect very badly on those having a laugh, on the forum and on our club. They are disgraceful. Have you no sympathy for the 96 dead and their families! To suggest that the independent panel was and is itself biased is ludicrous. Read the report.

'Consistent with Lord Justice Taylor’s findings, the Panel found no evidence among the vast number of disclosed documents and many hours of video material to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans. There was no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium and force entry and no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying. Documents show that fans became frustrated by the inadequate response to the unfolding tragedy. The vast majority of fans on the pitch assisted in rescuing and evacuating the injured and the dead.'

It could have been Leicester City and not Liverpool playing that day. In which case some of us would have been there – in that pen. Liverpool fans deserve more respect. There is no evidence that fans got into the pen without tickets and those without tickets wanting to pay at the turnstiles, along with all the other fans, deserved better stewarding and policing than they received. All football fans should show sympathy and regret over the 23 years cover up of the truth.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

This

good post

[Stig the Lawnmower]

Some of my close family were at the game and they have always said the Liverpool fans were at fault. How they can be "completely cleared" when it's known people without tickets were jumping over the gate is unbelievable. Sad thing is they were still doing similar things in Athens.

And some of the stuff printed by the Sun was true despite what everyone says.

Edit: sorry Mack didn't realise you had already brought up Athens.

so how can you be so sure about this? Hearsay? if you have proof I suggest that you volunteer to speak at the next enquiry.

What's been revealed today is so much closer to the truth than has ever been released before.

The worrying thing is that it's not 'new evidence' it's been there all the time, it was just covered up.

[Stig the Lawnmower]

Who was chairing the independant report? I actually dont know, but am I right in thinking the Bishop of Liverpool had something to do with it?

Nottingham Forest had a larger ticket allocation that day, yet nothing happened at their end. Why?

Im seriously not pointing fingers, because I dont know enough about all this to, though Ive been reading more throughout the day, but for me, the point about Forest fans is a decent question about that day...why one and not the other? And the first question...if true, well, you know.

It's already been posted, but there were at least twice as many turnstiles for the Forest end for less fans. Incompetance at the planning stage

[Prospero]

There were ticketless fans there, but all the evidence states that their involvement was but a very, very small part of the tragic events of that day.

It was caused by a weak, panicky police response led by a weak, panicky Superintendent. There was an identical fixture twelve months earlier with identical problems regarding numbers of ticketless fans, but the 1988 semi-final policing was led by an officer experienced in high profile football operations. The 1989 semi-final was overseen by a newbie.

It is actually known that the stand as a whole was not over capacity, the problem was that the crowd was poorly distributed. The pens either side of where the deadly crush occurred were nearly empty; had the gates to that central pen been closed as they should have been, the 1989 semi-final would be long forgotten by all but Liverpool and Forest fans today. The argument that this could have happened to Leicester City fans is probably true, if you shovel 5000 fans into fenced pens built for 2000 with pens either side lying empty, you're going to have problems even if all of them have tickets.

The roll of blame also lies with a culture that neglected the safety of all fans in favour of controlling them, an addiction that football authorities have still to relinquish. The police were hopelessly incompetent and Sheffield Wednesday had mismanaged their stadium for years, hence the lack of a safety certificate. The Liverpool fans are a long way down my and the inquiry's list of people to blame, irrespective of the way they'd behaved in the past.

Thank the MON for Bilo; always a sane voice.

[stripeyfox]

The reason Forest got the "Kop" at Hillsborough (which is massive) and Liverpool the leppings lane end (which is not) was for geographical reasons. The ends corresponded with the logical points of arrival for coaches etc, thus avoiding thousands of rival supporters crossing past each other to get to the "other" end. Which I guess is a sensible thing if you're trying to prevent confrontation and trouble which I imagine was the main priority at the time....

Those criticising the Liverpool fans should take a look at the long, long list of names at the Hillsborough memorial. Each one just a football fan, like all of us, who went to a game and never came home. Them the police and authorities blamed them for their own deaths because they were pissed!

The authorities ****ed up and the tried to bury the truth. And the fact that those in power, and those who followed knew this and it took 23 years to come clean is the biggest scandal of all.

[Prospero]

Complete and utter bullshit. Never heard of City fans jumping gates back then and we certainly don't now.

More I see this the more I think it's about Cameron and him trying to prove the Tories have a heart, to suggest there was no excessive drunkeness or ticketless fans in just absolutely laughable, seriously struggling to control myself on that one.

"Justice" - what a load of absolute cobblers.

Courage, mon brave. Rise from your armchair and get up to Liverpool where they are holding the vigil and ask to speak, tell the families face to face that their dead relatives jumped the turnstiles and that the Sun newspaper told the truth. The only barriers they jumped were the ones stopping them getting to the pitch to save their lives. After 4397 posts on here you can do it!

[reynard]

Here's my thoughts overall then.

Liverpool fans; If Leicester were playing a semi final at Hillsbrough against Bolton, we'd inevitably have sold loads and if you had missed out on a ticket, you would go if you heard there were more on sale. I would, and you all know you would. Whilst I think the fact too many Liverpool fans being there has caused the problem, I'm not necessarily sure it's their fault, I think they've been largely mis-lead.

The Police; Handled things absolutely horrendously and they're a bunch of absolute cowards for not fessing up, they've basically put their jobs over the truth of deaths, I simply don't understand how they can turn up to work every day.

The Sun; They should do a NOTW, I wouldn't miss them for one second. Absolute scum of the earth for making things up like that and as I said earlier, I won't be buying it again, not that I ever bought it before.

Sheffield Wednesday; Aren't 100% blameless. Got their allocations for the game wrong. I think theirs was more stupidity, rather than malice like the others.

Finally, today I believe it's not really our place to comment. I'm contradicting myself seeing as I've just given my views on things - but no matter what you all think about Liverpool, no matter how despicable you may find them as a club, people with more info than any of us will EVER get on it have today cleared them of wrong-doing. I'm not one for buying into what the authorities say but I really do think it's best to leave it.

I agree with pretty much all of this.

Anyone who regularly attended football in those days can gloss over what they like but attending matches was not always the fun it is made out to be. levels of drunkeness and ticketless thugs were far higher than now and I can recall many incidents of large groups of drunken fans acting in agressive and threatening ways. The type of crushing involved in riduculously overcrowded terraces at big matches with fencing to stop you getting out was not uncommon the only difference here being that the numbers were greater and the overcrowding worse. This was an accident waiting to happen in British football.

The report is crystal clear and exonorates the Liverpool supporters. This is the result that their families have fought hard to get and I am full of admiration for their stoicism and perserverance and I only hope that if the same fate befell me that my family would fight as hard for justice as they have.

Some of these findings are truly disgusting and though many years ago I hope those found to be responsible can be held accountable. The positive thing about our country is that at least there is always a chance that the ordinary person can eventually discover the truth if they perservere for long enough.

My main hope tonight is that this finally brings closure to the whole thing. Unfortunately I fear it won't. It is a deep scar which has run through British football for too long. Whilst as a tragedy it was and will always remain a truly dreadful incident and one we should never forget it is time we remembered with equal measure other football tragedies such as the Bradford fire and also the Heysel stadium both of which have in my opinion been wrongly overlooked and generally forgotten by the british public and media.

[jonthefox]

Just out of curiosity. Does anyone on here remember the Burton albion fa cup game played at the baseball ground.

It was in the mid eightys , and i certainly remember being crushed to shit and scared to death.

[Bilo]

Before my time, but heard plenty about it. That's a game that could very easily have ended extremely badly.

Our fans had a few near misses ourselves through hooliganism, bad crowd management and overcrowding. Leicester v Chelsea on the very same day as the Hillsborough disaster could very easily have ended with deaths as well by accounts; and I don't think anyone on here would accept the name of our fans being dragged through the mud the same way Liverpool fans have for 23 years.

[Bilo]

Tomorrow's Sun headline.

Rather more brave than I was expecting, sidestepping was my prediction but they've met it face on.

It'll be interesting to see if the apology is as it should be; completely and utterly unreserved without any of the 'new editorial team' rubbish they spouted in 2004.

[ADK]

Don't think you can blame the fans. Even if half the fans turn up extremely drunk with no tickets it is the organisers duty to ensure the safety of the fans. The ground simply wasn't suitable, i'm not sure i would even blame the police on the day. If you have an unsafe set-up then it is only a matter of time before a disaster will happen.

[ScouseFox]

Interesting.

Is there a response to that from the people with the "it could only have happened to Liverpool fans because they charged the barriers without tickets whilst they were pissed out their brains and they're all criminals" viewpoint?

Edit - for some reason it won't let me embed the vid. So you'll 'ave to click the link and watch.

[Bilo]

Interesting.

Is there a response to that from the people with the "it could only have happened to Liverpool fans because they charged the barriers without tickets whilst they were pissed out their brains and they're all criminals" viewpoint?

Edit - for some reason it won't let me embed the vid. So you'll 'ave to click the link and watch.

http://hillsborough....00028950001.pdf

This letter was sent days after the Hillsborough tragedy by a Spurs fan who attended the 1981 semi-final at the same ground.

The parallels between that day and 1989 are chilling, it truly could have been any set of fans at the centre of a tragedy.

We played the '97 Coca-Cola Cup final replay there and were allocated the Leppings Lane End. Ten years earlier with metal fences and rampant mismanagement.... The thought makes me shudder.

A disaster waiting to happen.

[C-man]

The reason Forest got the "Kop" at Hillsborough (which is massive) and Liverpool the leppings lane end (which is not) was for geographical reasons. The ends corresponded with the logical points of arrival for coaches etc, thus avoiding thousands of rival supporters crossing past each other to get to the "other" end. Which I guess is a sensible thing if you're trying to prevent confrontation and trouble which I imagine was the main priority at the time....

Bit of a nonsense though that, given a similar disaster was narrowly averted only 8 years earlier at the Spurs vs Wolves semi.

On that occasion Spurs were given the Leppings Lane end despite having double the average attendance Wolves had. Strange given Spurs fans would take the same route in as Forest would...

Similar crowd swelling occurred outside the ground and they let everyone in to avoid any trouble outside the ground. This time though they opened the perimeter fence and let people escape on to the pitch. How the FA have remained so relatively unscathed is beyond me, but it appears concerns won't be listened to until people are dead. Even then it takes 23 years.

[fleckneymike]

I agree

It would have been overcrowded but no one would have died probably.

In addition the police on the pitch thought it was a pitch invasion and started stopping people from escaping the crush.

The police did a dreadful job that day, and could have avoided anyone getting killed.

The thousands pushing outside who were too many and a proportion without tickets are also a factor, that was my point.

I know it's a delicate subject and those who died inside didn't deserve it, but equally what has come out today in my opinion is a little without full balance. In fact almost like the exact opposite of what came out in the first place.

The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Have you read the report, read the evidence? If not I would question your assertion that 'the truth is somewhere in the middle'.

I would hope that most reasonable people would think that when the police collected evidence, then systematically altered it to fit the narrative they wished to push that perhaps the 'truth' was in the evidence they actually collected. The crush was not caused by ticketless fans, drunk fans or any other 'fan' group, it was caused by Police directing fans into just two pens in a ground which had no safety certificate. The belief that fans stormed a turnstile and were drunk and without tickets was caused by the police as they began briefing the press almost immediately that this was the case in order to cover up their tracks. After 23 years that story, has for some, become the truth.

[Guest MattP]

Courage, mon brave. Rise from your armchair and get up to Liverpool where they are holding the vigil and ask to speak, tell the families face to face that their dead relatives jumped the turnstiles and that the Sun newspaper told the truth. The only barriers they jumped were the ones stopping them getting to the pitch to save their lives. After 4397 posts on here you can do it!

I told a few in Ormskirk earlier this year, the reaction wavered from "we know" and agreement from generally Everton fans to virtually being spat on by those red cheeky chappies.

I didnt say the Sun told the truth, I said one part of it was confirmed to me by someone there about an Ambulance being robbed.

[James.]

Is anyone 'primarily blaming' ticketless Liverpool fans? Seems like those that have mentioned them are saying they were partly responsible.

By primarily blaming I mean people who insist on disproportionately focussing on ticketless fans due to blatant anti-Liverpool sentiment instead of acknowledging that by far the most relevant factor in this is the behaviour of the police.

Anyway it's good to see the balance of opinion shifting on here towards posts recognising that ticketless fans were a minor contributor (if a contributor at all) to the deaths of those 96 people.