marko Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 Is it not a strong possibility that an equally deadly crush would have occurred outside the turnstiles due to the ticketless fans had the police not opened the gate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwell Pablo Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 It's been determined that it wasn't over capacity, only the middle pens were. The end in general wasn't. I was under the impression the rest of the pens were at capacity and the pens where the overflow of fans ended up were over capacity meaning the end as a whole was over capacity, either way it is splitting hairs there were too many fans gaining entry to one specific section of the stand putting it over capacity. Is it not a strong possibility that an equally deadly crush would have occurred outside the turnstiles due to the ticketless fans had the police not opened the gate? Well yeah that's the reason they opened the gate. What they really should of done was delay kick off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandad. Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 How can you just dismiss stuff as 'making no difference'? These were contibuting factors, you can't really be telling me that the disposition of sober and drunk people is the same? How can you just dismiss stuff as 'making no difference'? These were contibuting factors, you can't really be telling me that the disposition of sober and drunk people is the same? How can you just dismiss stuff as 'making no difference'? These were contibuting factors, you can't really be telling me that the disposition of sober and drunk people is the same? Say the the same thing 3 times.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandad. Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 I think this needs nipping in the bud now, at the end of the day, people aren't going to agree. Like MattP has said, let's wait and see what the verdict is when this has been in a court of law. I'm not going to change my view, just like a lot of people aren't theirs. Justice for the 96. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripeyfox Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 Eh? I think the point is that the overall number of people on the Leppings Lane terrace did not exceed the overall capacity. The HSE has analysed CCTV footage and tried to estimate the number of people gaining entry to the ground. Their estimates vary between 9,267 and 10,124 against a capacity of 10,100. Admittedly, their figures cannot be absolutely verified but it does seem as if the congestion was caused by the uneven distribution of people (by not closing the gate to the tunnel) rather than there being too many people gaining entry. Whilst it may be true that there were "some" fans without tickets, it seems highly unlikely that there were "thousands". If the police had filtered the crowd in 1989 as they had done the previous year then the original crush outside the ground would not have occurred. The police were focused on hooliganism and were blinkered in this view. The safety of the spectators was not the main consideration. Having allowed the pressure to build up outside the turnstiles, they feared someone would be killed outside the ground, gave the order to open the gate. This was the fatal error, because it was not combined with the instruction to close the tunnel gate beforehand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marko Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 Well yeah that's the reason they opened the gate. What they really should of done was delay kick off. I wasn't exactly sure of whether the crush outside had already started to occur, hence them opening the gate, or whether they assumed one would occur judging by the numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 17 April 2014 Share Posted 17 April 2014 I think the point is that the overall number of people on the Leppings Lane terrace did not exceed the overall capacity. The HSE has analysed CCTV footage and tried to estimate the number of people gaining entry to the ground. Their estimates vary between 9,267 and 10,124 against a capacity of 10,100. Admittedly, their figures cannot be absolutely verified but it does seem as if the congestion was caused by the uneven distribution of people (by not closing the gate to the tunnel) rather than there being too many people gaining entry. Whilst it may be true that there were "some" fans without tickets, it seems highly unlikely that there were "thousands". If the police had filtered the crowd in 1989 as they had done the previous year then the original crush outside the ground would not have occurred. The police were focused on hooliganism and were blinkered in this view. The safety of the spectators was not the main consideration. Having allowed the pressure to build up outside the turnstiles, they feared someone would be killed outside the ground, gave the order to open the gate. This was the fatal error, because it was not combined with the instruction to close the tunnel gate beforehand. This It is clear a lot of people passing comment on here haven't read the actual report and the findings, they clearly explain how and why the tragedy occured. I find it amazing that people are bringing up states of inebriation as a factor, as though going to football after a few beers is disgraceful, I trust they have never gone to a football match drunk. It was a massive game featuring one of the best supported teams of that day and age, the majority of football fans like to drink so drunkeness was no more an issue than at any other game. The police and ground knew a large number of fans, who had most likely been drinking would be coming to the stadium, yet they were completely unprepared. So the ticketless fans accusation, as has already been said, the evidence gathered by the commission showed that the stand as a whole was not over capacity just the middle pens, which was a known issue as the entrance to the stand was directly opposite the tunnel to the middle pens. This is why there is a gate they closed for every other game once it got to capacity so the remaining fans had to fill the outer pens. Now if anyone can provide evidence that ticketless fans caused the tragedy and counter the findings from the commission, that the stand wasn't over capacity, then please share it. This does not include, stating the Bishop of Liverpool was on the commission, nor that some fans admitted to getting in without tickets, nobody is saying that the Liverpool fans were all angels and were sent to their deaths by the evil South Yorkshire Police, there were drunk fans and some fans trying to get in without tickets, the same as at every other game in the country at that time. But unless you can prove that the stand was over the official capacity, then it cannot be used as an argument. The commission has stated that it was the dsitribution of the fans that caused the problem not the number of fans in the ground. To continue to use that as an argument against the Liverpool fans is just baffling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndWhat? Posted 18 April 2014 Share Posted 18 April 2014 The thing which I can't get my head around is that there must have been people pushing? Imagine being one of the last people pushing to get in having no idea what was happening in the actual stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oadbyoldboy Posted 5 July 2014 Share Posted 5 July 2014 Hillsborough was the end of football hooliganism's influence (IMO)when a few police killed more in a few hours than hooligans killed in 30 years.....if they had said 'we don't know what happened it was a mistake'.. it wouldn't be so bad but they didn't. R.I.P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHux Posted 17 September 2014 Share Posted 17 September 2014 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-29223563 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 17 September 2014 Share Posted 17 September 2014 Popcorn.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 17 September 2014 Share Posted 17 September 2014 How can you blame fans without tickets for someone deciding that "yes, this is a large crowd of people out here, let's just stop checking tickets altogether and throw them all inside". Genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ttfn Posted 17 September 2014 Share Posted 17 September 2014 How can you blame fans without tickets for someone deciding that "yes, this is a large crowd of people out here, let's just stop checking tickets altogether and throw them all inside". Genius.Because people were getting crushed outside as well, or at least it was feared that was what was happening.The situation was dangerous because of ticketless fans and a stadium that was ill-equipped to deal with it. The situation was made lethal by the decision to let them in and inept policing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 17 September 2014 Share Posted 17 September 2014 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-29223563 Blimey, he can expect a few death threats on the way. Fair play to him, hope a lot more of the police will come forward as well. How can you blame fans without tickets for someone deciding that "yes, this is a large crowd of people out here, let's just stop checking tickets altogether and throw them all inside". Genius. He said he "tended to fear for my life" until Gate C was opened at 14:52, believing "the turnstiles were coming down". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 17 September 2014 Share Posted 17 September 2014 Blimey, he can expect a few death threats on the way. Fair play to him, hope a lot more of the police will come forward as well. He said he "tended to fear for my life" until Gate C was opened at 14:52, believing "the turnstiles were coming down". So clearly the situation was badly policed if that's what a turnstile operator's saying. People were always going to turn up en masse, the police may not have expected that many but it sounds like they weren't even prepared for it at all. If you want a significant quote from that article I'd suggest this one: Asked about whether he was concerned about where the fans would go once inside, [PC Brian Huckstead] said he "never gave it a moment's consideration... I was just so relieved that the situation outside seemed to be being handled and resolved.". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADK Posted 17 September 2014 Share Posted 17 September 2014 It was the stadium that was to blame. Same as the Bradford fire. If you have an unsafe stand then it's only a matter of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 13 March 2015 Share Posted 13 March 2015 I know this topic has been done to death through the years but with the current inquest, it starting me thinking about the Justice for 96 campaign. Today Duckenfield, the copper in charge on that fateful day, said he was ultimately responsible for what happened and issued an apology. In reply, some of the bereaved families walked out of court saying they didn't want his apology. So what exactly do the families want once the truth comes out? Prison sentences for the police who are still alive and were involved?, Compensation for losing their loved ones? I really don't know but am interested to find out. What justice do they seek? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 13 March 2015 Share Posted 13 March 2015 I know this topic has been done to death through the years but with the current inquest, it starting me thinking about the Justice for 96 campaign. Today Duckenfield, the copper in charge on that fateful day, said he was ultimately responsible for what happened and issued an apology. In reply, some of the bereaved families walked out of court saying they didn't want his apology. So what exactly do the families want once the truth comes out? Prison sentences for the police who are still alive and were involved?, Compensation for losing their loved ones? I really don't know but am interested to find out. What justice do they seek? The right to be perpetually offended by anyone and everyone. That said, and I do have a lot of beef with the way the HJC go about their business (particularly their ridiculous stance on safe standing and the disproportionate airtime they're given to gob off about it), I'm glad they've got some sort of closure from Duckenfield's admission. Don't see criminal charges ever following but the evidence given at the inquest could be used if they wanted to undertake civil proceedings against him and SYP I suppose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 13 March 2015 Share Posted 13 March 2015 The right to be perpetually offended by anyone and everyone. That said, and I do have a lot of beef with the way the HJC go about their business (particularly their ridiculous stance on safe standing and the disproportionate airtime they're given to gob off about it), I'm glad they've got some sort of closure from Duckenfield's admission. Don't see criminal charges ever following but the evidence given at the inquest could be used if they wanted to undertake civil proceedings against him and SYP I suppose? Which basically means they want financial compensation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozleicester Posted 14 March 2015 Share Posted 14 March 2015 I know this topic has been done to death through the years but with the current inquest, it starting me thinking about the Justice for 96 campaign. Today Duckenfield, the copper in charge on that fateful day, said he was ultimately responsible for what happened and issued an apology. In reply, some of the bereaved families walked out of court saying they didn't want his apology. So what exactly do the families want once the truth comes out? Prison sentences for the police who are still alive and were involved?, Compensation for losing their loved ones? I really don't know but am interested to find out. What justice do they seek? Their loved ones back, their years of suffering (which were increased by the institutional lying) wiped away, the future that they saw with their loved ones, their normal lives.. i would imagine thats a few of the justices they seek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 14 March 2015 Share Posted 14 March 2015 Their loved ones back, their years of suffering (which were increased by the institutional lying) wiped away, the future that they saw with their loved ones, their normal lives.. i would imagine thats a few of the justices they seek. But they're never going to get that because its impossible, and obviously apologies are not what they seek as some families walked out of court refusing to accept them. I'm not trying to stir anything up or take the piss or anything like that, i'd just like to know to what end do the families seek once the full truth comes out, which i guess everyone knows anyway in that the pens were full, there was a crush outside the turnstyles, the coppers opened the gates to relieve that crush and did not block the entrance to pens 3 and 4, the fans went down the tunnel and because of the shear quantity of fans trying to get in the crush developed and the fans inside couldn't escape the crush because of the fencing around the pens. That is what happened and the reason it happened was the police were incompetent and couldn't control the shear number of fans and afterwards tried to cover up their incompetences by blaming it on drunken ticket-less fans. So once that is documented and blame is apportioned to whoever was responsible what justice will be served? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob1742 Posted 15 March 2015 Share Posted 15 March 2015 To me it is the total disregard of the victims families that makes me so angry. Maybe there were bad decisions made, but to try and cover them up is the issue for me. Opening the gates was perhaps a bad decision, but it was a decision in difficult circumstances. I could forgive that. But to lie about it afterwards, for statements to be amended, for there to be a cover up, this cannot be forgiven. If that was me, I would prefer to be open about why I did it, give my thoughts, even though I got it wrong. I just could never then lie about it and try and cover it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hankey Posted 17 March 2015 Share Posted 17 March 2015 Finally, after all these years the Match Commander, former Chief Inspector Duckenfield has agreed and accepted that his failure to close a tunnel at the Leppings Lane End "was the direct cause of the deaths of 96 people". At long last!! This incompetent who has been paid a vast amount of money in salary, allowances and expenses and pension has acknowledge the appalling way in which he acted on that fateful day in April 1989. No punishment will ever satisfy the bereaved families and nor should it. His concealment of the fact and inability to do absolutely noting has only served to compound the dreadful mayhem he allowed. And for him not come forward before now only personifies the way in which many of us feel about the Police - with utter contempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripeyfox Posted 15 April 2016 Share Posted 15 April 2016 27 (Twenty Seven!) years ago today. Can still vividly recall the images on "Grandstand" that afternoon and the sense of shock. The fact that it has taken so long to to dispel the lies and misinformation about that day. That some people still think that the supporters were at fault. JFT96 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaelicFox Posted 15 April 2016 Share Posted 15 April 2016 The blame Has to be shared Yes the police were incompetent But the drongo drunk Liverpool fans didn't help the situation Responsibility should be shared outcome here The poor people who went to a match with a ticket and never came home were effectively slaughtered by police incompetence and idiot fans rushing gates with no tickets There can be no justice till responsibility is shared Too easy to blame the coppers ....yes they ****ed up , but they weren't the ones causing all the problems outside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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