Guest Bilo Posted 16 December 2012 Posted 16 December 2012 We still have some of the lowest gun murder rates in the world so 8 or 40 the poster remains a valid comparison. The most up-to-date figures I've found showed that 9,146 people were killed by guns in the USA in 2009 compared to 39 in the UK in 2008. So the comparison definitely stands up to scrutiny. Canada meanwhile, which is not only the USA's nearest neighbour but also has a near identical guns per capita rating, experiences about 200 murders by gun per year. The most scary stat I found is this one though. 'Among the world’s 23 wealthiest countries, 80 percent of all gun deaths are American deaths and 87 percent of all kids killed by guns are American kids' In the face of all this, it becomes absolutely impossible for anybody with an ounce of humanity and common sense to claim all is well with America's gun laws. Unfortunately, most of the American right and gun lobby don't fall into this category.
Guest BlueBrett Posted 16 December 2012 Posted 16 December 2012 Doesn't the point about Canada suggest that it isn't just the guns that are the problem? Also I'd be interested to hear the UKs gun stats added to the knife crime stats and see how that figure compared to the 10k or so shootings in the states.
THEFATBASTARD Posted 16 December 2012 Author Posted 16 December 2012 http://news.msn.com/us/ind-man-with-47-guns-arrested-after-school-threat And so it goes.......
Guest Bilo Posted 16 December 2012 Posted 16 December 2012 Doesn't the point about Canada suggest that it isn't just the guns that are the problem? Also I'd be interested to hear the UKs gun stats added to the knife crime stats and see how that figure compared to the 10k or so shootings in the states. America's culture is the main reason. Fear, rampant individualism, racism all add to a generally violent society. Add in the very poor state of mental health tracking due to the lack of a nationalised health care system like almost every other developed nation as PR mentioned and you have a nation that should have the strictest gun laws in the world rather than the most lenient.
AdamN Posted 16 December 2012 Posted 16 December 2012 Doesn't the point about Canada suggest that it isn't just the guns that are the problem? Almost certainly, but then that also shows exactly why the USA is in no fit state to have such lax gun laws. You wouldn't hand a knife to a mental patient, would you?
Jordan Posted 16 December 2012 Posted 16 December 2012 Whenever there is a shooting rampage, the aftermath follows a predictable pattern. Unfortunately, the pattern ends when the discussion on how to prevent mass murders and gun violence breaks down and dies as soon as gun control becomes the topic. Along with abortion, gun ownership is a "political third rail." I don't have much hope that we can solve this problem in the near future. Gun rights absolutists are so deeply entrenched that it's impossible to pull them out and bring them into reality. We have lots of gun owners here that have stockpiled weapons and ammunition because they have feared that "Obama will take our guns away," never mind that the current administration hasn't done a single thing to restrict access to guns. However, I have noticed the aftermath of this horrible, heart-breaking massacre has been a little different this time. Because so many of the dead were young children, this has weighed on everybody's hearts a little more. It's all anyone is talking about. The pro-gun absolutists have always said that more guns equal less crime, and that if other citizens were armed, they would be able to defend themselves. Now, anybody making that argument in the wake of a mass gun murder in kindergarten classrooms sounds even more like a total crackpot. It is worth noting that the NRA, who never shy away from controversy, has not had any twitter activity since Friday morning, and they have also taken down their Facebook page. They are losing this argument and they know it, and perhaps more Americans are waking up to their senses. It is just a shame so many lives have been lost unnecessarily for this to happen. NYC mayor Mike Bloomberg has called out President Obama again, demanding federal action to control gun violence. Sen. Diane Feinstein (D-CA) has promised to introduce legislation banning assault weapons on the first day of the new Congress. These are positive steps but it will take a long, long time for the U.S. to bring its gun murder rates in line with the rest of the developed world. There has to be a significant change in our culture, but it is worth noting that younger Americans are much less likely to own guns and are more in favor of gun control than older Americans. I would also agree with some posters here that mental health services are inadequate here. Although there have been improvements in awareness and treatment of certain mental ailments/various disorders on the autism spectrum, there is still a long way to go. It is sad that we are so good at building a profile of mass murderers after the fact, in which there are invariably several red flags indicating the potential of destructive behavior, but somehow the killer falls through the cracks and is also able to procure weapons.
Rincewind Posted 16 December 2012 Posted 16 December 2012 I swore for the first time in a reply on Facebook. Somebody poster a picture and it had something like I support the right to bear arms as in the 2nd Amendment if you brave enough repost this' Underneath a poster wrote 'I am' I wrote 'Sick bastard' It may have been an intention to highlight what had been seen but my reply was to whoever had thought the pic/poster up. In another post was a picture of a mental hospital (a sign outside) and next door a gun shop. Saw a post where I think it was a republican saying it was only sick people that used guns yet there disagree with Obamas health plans. It said make your mind up.
Daggers Posted 16 December 2012 Posted 16 December 2012 Whenever there is a shooting rampage, the aftermath follows a predictable pattern... But, the absolute worst bit, Jordy, is that this thread is now on page 6 and yet still no one has posted the obligatory link to the Chris Rock bullet pricing video. These people have no fvcking shame. :xmasangry:
Koke Posted 17 December 2012 Posted 17 December 2012 Mike Huckabee: "We ask why there is violence in our schools but we have systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage?" Not only is it far less likely that such a multiple murder will happen here, it is also far less likely that some shit for brains politician will bring his deity crashing into discussion of the matter. It doesn't fill me with hope for the future of the Land of the Free. So is Huckabee saying mass shootings didn't happen in the US prior to 17th June 1963? Also, is Huckabee saying then that God is in the strip clubs, the bars, clubs, casinos etc., because I cannot recall anyone having a shooting spree at these venues? **** off Huckabee with your God propaganda.
Jordan Posted 17 December 2012 Posted 17 December 2012 I swore for the first time in a reply on Facebook. Somebody poster a picture and it had something like I support the right to bear arms as in the 2nd Amendment if you brave enough repost this' Underneath a poster wrote 'I am' I wrote 'Sick bastard' It may have been an intention to highlight what had been seen but my reply was to whoever had thought the pic/poster up. In another post was a picture of a mental hospital (a sign outside) and next door a gun shop. Saw a post where I think it was a republican saying it was only sick people that used guns yet there disagree with Obamas health plans. It said make your mind up. I wonder how many people that reposted that picture were part of a well-regulated militia whose duty is national security. My guess is none of them, because it is nearly 2013 and the necessity of militia to protect American citizens has been obsolete for two centuries. "Right to keep and bear arms" (I'll use RKBA for short) absolutists refuse to consider the "militia clause" of the first amendment because it doesn't suit their pro-gun beliefs (or, in the case of the black helicopter fringe, because they believe they may have to overthrow or fight back against goverment one day). I would greatly support efforts to amend the Constitution to allow for reasonable restrictions on RKBA because firearms are exponentially more lethal today than they were when the Bill of Rights were ratified. However, although I believe the USA's love affair with guns will cool down a bit in the next generation, we simply have neither a consensus on what changes are needed, nor a coalition demanding change anywhere close to the "super majorities" needed to amend the Constitition. Trends in public opinion and policy in recent years has favored increased gun ownership rights. Those of us that have this wild notion that less guns will somehow REDUCE violence (crazy, huh?) must speak up and speak often for common sense's sake. But, the absolute worst bit, Jordy, is that this thread is now on page 6 and yet still no one has posted the obligatory link to the Chris Rock bullet pricing video. These people have no fvcking shame. :xmasangry: Tsk, tsk. :xmasangry: I'd blow their ****in' heads off... If I could afford it.
Captain... Posted 17 December 2012 Posted 17 December 2012 If they want to stick rigidly to the bill of rights and RKBA, then it should be limited to any weapons that were around in those days. You won't get very far on a killing spree with a six shooter, but you would still be able to protect yourself in the event of an attack.
The People's Hero Posted 17 December 2012 Posted 17 December 2012 Time for the world at large to stop reporting on news in America and just leave them to it. I'm not sure they can be helped.
anotherharboroughfox Posted 17 December 2012 Posted 17 December 2012 'The right to bear arms is only slightly less ludicrous than the right to arm bears.'
Rincewind Posted 17 December 2012 Posted 17 December 2012 Think I have upset some on Facebook. II commented on a couple that were saying it wasn't guns that killed people. Coming out with things like MvVaigh used fertilizer Jack Ripper a knife etc. I replied that the killer never sprayed fertilizer at the children. Another said aperson has to wait three days for a gun permit and have background checks. They also mentioned that it was their right to have guns. I was just getting fed up with the pictures being posted. It amazes me that some think owning a sub-machine gun can be classed as a self defence weapon. Not the sort of thing a sweet old lady carries in a handbag. Why would anyone go in a shop to buy one other than to fire off a hundred rounds or so. If you shot a deer with one whilst hunting yo could die of lead poisoning. Oh yes reading back on the posts reminded me that somebody also posted on FB 'The problem isn't guns it is a godless society.' So God supports the gun-toting hillbilly and nutters that use assault weapons?
ithuriel Posted 17 December 2012 Posted 17 December 2012 Rincewind, you should just have posted that because a 20 year old had the right to bear arms, 20 six year olds never had the opportunity to go home to their parents.
Rincewind Posted 17 December 2012 Posted 17 December 2012 Rincewind, you should just have posted that because a 20 year old had the right to bear arms, 20 six year olds never had the opportunity to go home to their parents. I posted something similar but they argued that if a madman wanted to go on a killing spree they'd find another way. They were saying more restrictions would not mean less killings.
ithuriel Posted 17 December 2012 Posted 17 December 2012 I posted something similar but they argued that if a madman wanted to go on a killing spree they'd find another way. They were saying more restrictions would not mean less killings. Those kind would not change even if their own child was lying dead on a stone slab in a morgue.
flowwolf Posted 18 December 2012 Posted 18 December 2012 The amount of school shootings in America is getting out of hand, something needs to change. The most depressing thing about it all is that young children are involved again, very very sad. It got out of hand after the first one the amount does not matter. Sadly the genie is out of the bottle even if the American government wanted to change gun laws there are so many millions of guns in that God foresaken country it would be impossible to get people to hand them in.
Rincewind Posted 18 December 2012 Posted 18 December 2012 It just annoys me sometimes how some follow the constitution to the letter. They do not see the flaws. 'It says this and that so we must obey it because we are America' The NRA have so much power now and I would think a few members are making a nice profit from gun sales. Manufacturers, gunshops politicians etc. They do not care about 'rights' or Land of the Free but the American public that want change struggle to be heard as there are few in power that agree with them.
The People's Hero Posted 18 December 2012 Posted 18 December 2012 Godforsaken country. Best left to its own devices.
flowwolf Posted 18 December 2012 Posted 18 December 2012 Godforsaken country. Best left to its own devices. Totally agree, trouble is they are hell bent on imposing their way of life on the rest of the world and actually see themselves as a beacon of how the rest should live. Thay have to be the most hated nation on the earth.
leicsmac Posted 18 December 2012 Posted 18 December 2012 Such a shame really...I know a lot of decent Americans (having worked there for a while in the past), and it's a damn shame that these lunatics give the rest of them a bad name.
purpleronnie Posted 18 December 2012 Posted 18 December 2012 Totally agree, trouble is they are hell bent on imposing their way of life on the rest of the world and actually see themselves as a beacon of how the rest should live. Thay have to be the most hated nation on the earth. You're forgetting the welsh.
flowwolf Posted 18 December 2012 Posted 18 December 2012 You're forgetting the welsh. Ronnie you of all people being racist ! mind you they did burn down my second home so you may have a point.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.