Our system detected that your browser is blocking advertisements on our site. Please help support FoxesTalk by disabling any kind of ad blocker while browsing this site. Thank you.
Jump to content
Deucalion

Ukraine

By Deucalion, in General Chat

Recommended Posts

Jon the Hat

Jon the Hat

Posted
Posted

The comment wasn't really a "take me on" based on a personal level, more a point that no leaders now really fear or respect America, Assad in Syria, Putin in Moscow, anyone really, when it was Reagan, Clinton or Bush they were feared, you knew if you did something wrong you paid the price, with Obama you don;t get that feeling, I do a lot of travelling and I think he's the least respected US President ever, if you arent in US, Britain, France or Germany the people generally see him as a bit of a joke, in Sri Lanka a few of them reffered to him as USA Mr Chocolate face in a similar vein to the Borat movie.

 

Of course it's a show of force, he's sent his troops into a another country that has ousted one of his buddies, if you think he'll stop at the Crimea then fair play but I don't see him doing so.

 

Obama wanted to invade his mates in Syria (with decent support), he backed down. Putin wants to do the same to Baracks mate (with no support) and he just goes ahead and does it.

 

Forbes named Putin the most powerful man in the World in 2013, he's completely solidifying his position.

 

We don't just buy gas, we court the billionaires, very important to us and I want to see us have far closer ties with the Russians in the future, good people and strong people, good and strong leaders.

 

(On a side note how many of Sarah Palins predictions are coming true? I didn't like her but the woman must have a crystal ball)

 

 

Too right, I try to use Twitter now for most news sources, what we get fed over here is so one sided it's untrue a lot of the time.

 

Of course, they'll be needed in the Crimea. lol

 

To do what?  they have more than enough troops in Crimea with the 16,000 or so they already have.

Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted

To do what?  they have more than enough troops in Crimea with the 16,000 or so they already have.

 

For the time being probably, but Putin won't be stopping at that point, he'll move into the East of the country and if he does that by extending from the Crimea rather than piling over the border it can be justified far easier.

Jon the Hat

Jon the Hat

Posted
Posted

I am coming to the conclusion Putin doesnt actually know what he is doing.  He might have lost it.  Reading a few things and the unedited excerps of his press conference today were very confused.

Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted

Kudos to Abby Martin for standing up to her employer (sort of):

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/04/russia-today-abby-martin-video_n_4894981.html

 

Not really a good idea though to admit you know nothing about the history of Ukraine/Russia relations and little about Crimea before saying it. Plus she's a bit of a whackjob.

 

Martin herself is a 9/11 Truther, calling the government's version of the events "propaganda", and has accused Israel of using "Hitler's methods".

 

Lionator

Lionator

Posted
Posted

 

That would've taken place anyway.

 

So is World War III coming or not?

Gonna save for my Anderson shelter if it is

 

About as likely as Kim Jong Un pulling Angelina Jolie on a night out in Pyongyang.

 

Interestingly, Ukraine and Russia are now in 'high level' talks. It makes you wonder whether they should've been left to it without Obama + Camoron getting so deeply involved.

MC Prussian

MC Prussian

Posted
Posted

Maybe you missed this bit about the "friendly" protesters in the Ukraine:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e5d_1393922983

Personally, I can't tell whether the ones using violence are just Svoboda members or other (paid) agitators.

I just find it vile throwing bricks, molotovs and flares, spraying tear gas, using a bulldozer, batons or metal pipes and singling out police officers to beat them up individually.

 

However, judging from this footage, it has to be noted that the Ukrainian police (then still under the influence of Yanukovych) is acting passively.

sphericalfox

sphericalfox

Posted
Posted

Maybe you missed this bit about the "friendly" protesters in the Ukraine:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e5d_1393922983

Personally, I can't tell whether the ones using violence are just Svoboda members or other (paid) agitators.

I just find it vile throwing bricks, molotovs and flares, spraying tear gas, using a bulldozer, batons or metal pipes and singling out police officers to beat them up individually.

 

However, judging from this footage, it has to be noted that the Ukrainian police (then still under the influence of Yanukovych) is acting passively.

 

I'm not quite sure where it has been said that the protestors were simply friendly. Also there are no context to why the protestors in those specific instances resorted to violence. The police are wearing riot gear. The bulldozer wasn't running over them, but merely shifting the blockade that had been set up from what I could see. There were protestors trying to stop fellow protestors from attacking the police too. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say the police were passive in all of this tbf.

MC Prussian

MC Prussian

Posted
Posted

I'm not quite sure where it has been said that the protestors were simply friendly. Also there are no context to why the protestors in those specific instances resorted to violence. The police are wearing riot gear. The bulldozer wasn't running over them, but merely shifting the blockade that had been set up from what I could see. There were protestors trying to stop fellow protestors from attacking the police too. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say the police were passive in all of this tbf.

I'm not denying that. I just don't see what people have to gain by using violent force in order to protest.
sphericalfox

sphericalfox

Posted
Posted

I'm not denying that. I just don't see what people have to gain by using violent force in order to protest.

 

I suppose there's a definite difference between a protest and an overthrow of an unwanted government. Especially if that government wants to quell, disperse, prevent you from exercising your democratic right to do so. I don't doubt there were factions within the protestors who were there to pick a fight from the beginning, but I don't know the tactics the government used initially against those protestors to cause them to take guerilla tactics to protect themselves and remain steadfast in their resolve. Fairly certain there won't be a truly objective picture of what has happened now or in the near future.

bovril

bovril

Posted
Posted

I'm not denying that. I just don't see what people have to gain by using violent force in order to protest.

 

If you have no job and no future and your country suffers from endemic corruption and nepotism, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

MC Prussian

MC Prussian

Posted
Posted

If you have no job and no future and your country suffers from endemic corruption and nepotism, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

By attacking the police and by being violent? I don't see how that would change anything in the grand scheme of things other than the number of casualties.

When you consider that the regular policeman is also just a mere pawn overall, I can't see what attacking a fellow Ukrainian does for one's own future.

 

Protests? Yes. Overthrowing a corrupt government? I'm all game.

Injuring or killing people intentionally? Have a word.

Deucalion

Deucalion

Posted
  • Author
Posted

By attacking the police and by being violent? I don't see how that would change anything in the grand scheme of things other than the number of casualties.

When you consider that the regular policeman is also just a mere pawn overall, I can't see what attacking a fellow Ukrainian does for one's own future.

 

Protests? Yes. Overthrowing a corrupt government? I'm all game.

Injuring or killing people intentionally? Have a word.

 

So injuring and killing should be the preserve of governments only?

 

I can think of plenty of reasons to take up arms against governments.

 

Off the top of my head;

 

  • The Arab Spring
  • The Velvet Revolution
  • Hungary 1956
  • The Civil Rights Movement
  • Armed resistance against the Nazis.
  • The Russian Revolution

You seem to have a lot of faith in the good intentions and legitimacy of governments.  I personally believe the ordinary person has a right to protest about things which are unjust.  Depending of the level of injustice, killing and injuring may be justified.

 

I'm sure the relative merits of different causes will be seen differently by different people, however protest surely has to be preferable to slavish obedience to the powers that be?

MC Prussian

MC Prussian

Posted
Posted

So injuring and killing should be the preserve of governments only?

 

I can think of plenty of reasons to take up arms against governments.

 

Off the top of my head;

 

  • The Arab Spring
  • The Velvet Revolution
  • Hungary 1956
  • The Civil Rights Movement
  • Armed resistance against the Nazis.
  • The Russian Revolution

You seem to have a lot of faith in the good intentions and legitimacy of governments.  I personally believe the ordinary person has a right to protest about things which are unjust.  Depending of the level of injustice, killing and injuring may be justified.

 

I'm sure the relative merits of different causes will be seen differently by different people, however protest surely has to be preferable to slavish obedience to the powers that be?

I didn't say that. No party should have the right to kill human beings. Sadly, I can't see this ever being implemented. We're all too complex.

What I wanted to point at was that the Ukrainian protests started off peacefully (as far as I know), then escalated. And a lot of that violence could've been prevented.

 

This is not about trusting governments or believing in their rightfulness. Due to recent corruption scandals here in Switzerland, I'm actually losing faith in our representatives myself.

 

See, I absolutely agree that individuals/citizens should be allowed to protest about things that are unjust. Maybe you misread some of my comments.

I have no complaints here. Freedom of speech matters and should always be guaranteed. It's the measures leading up to that state that I sometimes tend to question.

Lionator

Lionator

Posted
Posted

Crimean parliament/people to vote on March 16 on whether to join Russia. If it's done fairly and democratically then surely nobody can moan? I know it's not that simple.  

Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted

Crimean parliament/people to vote on March 16 on whether to join Russia. If it's done fairly and democratically then surely nobody can moan? I know it's not that simple.  

 

I would've thought the large minority of people living in Crimea who are glad to have finally broken away from the Soviet union and are happily Ukranien could moan.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Go to topic listing

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...