Ukraine

[Father Ted]

Didn't the UK  once have a big war to protect Serbian independence, amongst other issues?  The USA came in on the side of the Serbs too.

 

So Nato bombing raids on Serbia were war crimes but ethnic cleansing wasn't?

At which point did I say that ethnic cleansing wasn't a war crime? At which point did I condone ethnic cleansing? Croats, Bosnians, Serbs - all committed atrocities, no side was 'worse' or 'better' than the other but there is no doubt that the Serbs got the worst end of the stick for it from NATO and the west.

[MooseBreath]

Still can't see why nato or the us would get involved. Surely if putin wants control over half of Ukraine, which itself wants to be with Russia, then the best course of action is just to let it happen. Split the ukraine, everybody gets what they want, nobody dies. If this turns into war because of big egos on both sides then it will be the stupidest war ever.

[Guest MattP]

He can't be any worse than Bush on the phone. At least he probably knows where Ukraine is.

 

Maybe, but at least with Bush you had to condiser your actions knowing you might get a response, with Obama you'll get nothing and Putin knows it.

 

At which point did I say that ethnic cleansing wasn't a war crime? At which point did I condone ethnic cleansing? Croats, Bosnians, Serbs - all committed atrocities, no side was 'worse' or 'better' than the other but there is no doubt that the Serbs got the worst end of the stick for it from NATO and the west.

 

That "war" was hideous and the stuff you tell us is very much in line with the other Serbs I've worked with over time, everyone was doing everything, a bad guy was picked and the Western people were duped through a love of Blair, Bush, Nato etc to believe they have saved one side from being treated like the Jews in WW2 when anyone living there seemed to have a different opinion of what were being fed.

 

The Serbs certainly seemed to get the rough end of it but after reading some of the stuff the Kosovans were doing in the first place I could see why the Serbs etc responded.

 

Still can't see why nato or the us would get involved. Surely if putin wants control over half of Ukraine, which itself wants to be with Russia, then the best course of action is just to let it happen. Split the ukraine, everybody gets what they want, nobody dies. If this turns into war because of big egos on both sides then it will be the stupidest war ever.

 

Agree with that, appears to be what the people want so lets leave it.

[AlphaMaleFox]

At which point did I say that ethnic cleansing wasn't a war crime? At which point did I condone ethnic cleansing? Croats, Bosnians, Serbs - all committed atrocities, no side was 'worse' or 'better' than the other but there is no doubt that the Serbs got the worst end of the stick for it from NATO and the west.

 

Cheer up!

 

[Buce]

it will be the stupidest war ever.

Possibly not:

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswars16011800/p/jenkinsear.htm

[Finnegan]

Let's be honest, on past form, the last thing you want to do is go into World War Three on the side of the Germans.

 

 

And never, ever invade Russia.

[maynefox]

Frankly, I think there is nothing that NATO could do militarily. The European members don't have anything like the capability, and the Yanks would be far too stretched logistically.

Besides, the political will is absent.

 

NATO are a powerful military force, if they WANTED to do (they don't atm) they could take Russia on, You are talking about America's military might, which is still better than the Russia's.

Of course, I have interpreted that statement as ("if NATO went in they would get beating up by the Russian's") [correct me if I'm wrong!]

NATO do have a plan for this. Their military exercises in Poland late last year showed they have plans for any Russian expansionist aims. 

[sphericalfox]

I bet this war will have a shitty EDM soundtrack. 

[Alf Bentley]

 

 

Chris Morris â€@_ChrisMorris  30 min.

Ukrainian ambassador to #EU tells me one sanction they will push for if Moscow doesn't back down is expel Russia from World Cup this summer

 

What about WC Russia '18

 

 

Does it make me terribly superficial if I admit that this crossed my mind, too?! Could be a good sanction to threaten.... Negotiate a solution or you lose World Cup 2018 and we reallocate it to another European country that could stage it at short notice....such as England! 

 

 

Has America ever had a weaker leader in our lifetime?

 

I can imagine Putin absolutely pissing himself when Obama gives him a call, probably leaves it on speaker while he leaves the room and takes the piss out of him.

 

I wonder if that's what Bin Laden was thinking and doing in his Pakistani compound a while back, Matt! 

 

Surely if putin wants control over half of Ukraine, which itself wants to be with Russia, then the best course of action is just to let it happen. Split the ukraine, everybody gets what they want, nobody dies.

 

Sort of like a "Sudetenland 1938" solution, you mean, Moose? 

 

In most western countries there is some overlap and cross-contamination between "politics", "business" and "crime" (corporate influence on political agendas, lobbying, bribes etc.). As far as my limited understanding goes, the difference in Russia seems to be that "politics", "business" and "crime" are essentially all part of the same phenomenon - akin to a mafia state.

 

The logic of that seems to be that the mafia politicos running Russia will do whatever best serves their business and power interests. It probably wouldn't be in their interests, say, to cause a massive conflagration, damaging their business interests, or to roll the tanks into countries that don't want to see them (too costly to maintain, even if they were powerful enough to do it, which they aren't). Neither, however, would it be in their interests to accept a west-leaning Ukraine. I'd assume that the very least they'll accept is long-term effective power over Crimea & eastern Ukraine (not necessarily direct control) and for western Ukraine to be fairly neutral between Russia and the West. In the short-term, I'd have thought that the West should be ready to negotiate something like that, with guarantees of self-determination for different areas. Better that than risk very serious bloodshed in Ukraine and the West having to choose between a major conflagration (which it would win, but at huge cost) or allowing a mafia state to think that it can get away with expanding its criminal empire by military force (albeit with Russia having some real strategic interests to protect).

[Witch]

In most western countries there is some overlap and cross-contamination between "politics", "business" and "crime" (corporate influence on political agendas, lobbying, bribes etc.). As far as my limited understanding goes, the difference in Russia seems to be that "politics", "business" and "crime" are essentially all part of the same phenomenon - akin to a mafia state.

Something like that, yes. A cocktail mixed so well you can't tell the diference between one component and the other.

[BoneDog]

A few months back somebody told me that this song will be Europe's 'anthem' in coming years. Turns out he was right.

 

Some interesting info in this radio report from Tarpley - http://tarpley.net/kiev-fascist-clique-reeling-under-russian-counterstrokes-obama-must-back-off-merkel-ashton-fabius-sikorski-steinmeyer-exposed-as-coup-plotters/

 

"Russia's stance is largely justified".

[BoneDog]

I still think we will, eventually. This isn't the 20th century. Russia and the US are talking all of the time and I'm pretty sure they're working for the best outcome for all three parties although there's a lot of brinkmanship involved.

 

I hope you're right, but I'm pretty sure WW3 is inevitable in the 21st century. World war is in the interests of the 'one world government, micro-chipped population' lot - whose wishes will come to pass, and also the bankster and arms industry top men. Bread and butter.

 

We have an optimist in our midst!  Unfortunatley this is a power play by NATO which has gone awry, and Russia are responding very predictably.  The worry is that NATO did expect this and have a plan.  I doubt it though. Not sure anyone expected this outcome of the protests in Kiev.

 

I think that events are likely proceeding exactly as planned. And I would bet at least $33 that the plans for after it is all over will proceed according to plans too. Dats ow dey roll imo.

 

Not so sure. I think Putin is quite unhinged. I think Russia was exceptionally annoyed by the US meddling in 'their' border land. According to something I heard last week Obama told an aide "I'm quite good at killing people" when referring to drone strikes in Pakistan. All a bit nerve-racking for sure. It might not ever come to full scale 'hot war between the two sides but people in the Ukraines, Georgias and Syrias of this world will continue to get caught up in the middle, and misery will ensue.

 

He could be, but I think he's far less unhinged than some of the absolute loons at high levels of gov in the US, UK and other parts of the 'civilised' world.

[BoneDog]

I'm an optimist because in my lifetime this sort of thing always seems to die down after a few weeks. North Korean crisis', South Ossetia, Syria etc. I don't come from a cold war era. I'd like to think the main players in the world are more sensible. It appears that people in the West love to sensationalise and grumble about the worst case scenario all of time (I've even seen Putin compared to Hitler for goodness sake).

 

I don't think Syria and other parts of the region have seen the worst of it yet. I've heard from pretty reliable sources that Egypt is going to be levelled or chemicalled before or during WW3.

 

Regards the bolded part, I think the main players nowadays are anything but sensible! Actions speak louder than words, and I see lots of tragic and despicable acts caused by them, directly or indirectly.

[Jon the Hat]

Are the press complete ***** or what? Oh look we were able to photograph a secret document to do with our response to 150,000 Russia troops heading west in Europe - let's ignore the fact lives could be at stake and share it with the world!!! ****ing scum.

[Bob Weasel Fox]

Are the press complete ***** or what? Oh look we were able to photograph a secret document to do with our response to 150,000 Russia troops heading west in Europe - let's ignore the fact lives could be at stake and share it with the world!!! ****ing scum.

Does the dog wag the tail or does the tail wag the dog?

[Alf Bentley]

Are the press complete ***** or what? Oh look we were able to photograph a secret document to do with our response to 150,000 Russia troops heading west in Europe - let's ignore the fact lives could be at stake and share it with the world!!! ****ing scum.

 

Agree with you for once, Jon, and must admit that I'd not even thought of that aspect of the revelation. I must be over-accustomed to the press thinking that all that matters is their circulation figures.

[Jordan]

Has America ever had a weaker leader in our lifetime?

I can imagine Putin absolutely pissing himself when Obama gives him a call, probably leaves it on speaker while he leaves the room and takes the piss out of him.

He knows they are absolutely powerless to take him on now.

Obama can't take Putin on? That begs the question that Obama would even bother in the first place when he would have little, if anything, to gain.

Putin isn't playing the strongest hand here. Under Putin's watch, the EU and NATO have parked right on his doorstep. On his biggest diplomacy "victory," Syria, Putin will definitely be on the wrong side of history. I guess Putin did kick some ass in such important geopolitical hotspots as South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and he does have that big trade union with Belarus' massive economy, though!

In Ukraine, Putin first tried everything including poisoning the opposition leader to get his boy in charge, and that failed. A mere decision on a trade agreement was all it took to stoke the opposition enough in Ukraine to force Yanukovych to flee. So now, Putin sends forces to an autonomous region in Ukraine where Russia already has naval bases, and that's supposed to be an intimidating show of force? Suddenly, Obama doesn't seem like such a milquetoast in comparison.

Putin isn't stupid enough to force NATO into war but Obama isn't stupid enough to give him that fight. They both know how to play this game.

Anyway, Europe buys Russian gas, and the customer is always right.

[OzFox]

Agree with you for once, Jon, and must admit that I don't not even thought of that aspect of the revelation. I must be over-accustomed to the press thinking that all that matters is their circulation figures.

 

Not to mention their egos

[Vacamion]

[Jon the Hat]

Agree with you for once, Jon, and must admit that I'd not even thought of that aspect of the revelation. I must be over-accustomed to the press thinking that all that matters is their circulation figures.

 

I feel sick.

[Lionator]

Putin giving a sensible press conference here, interesting to hear the other side of the story instead of the bias drivel from our press.      

[Guest]

unarmed ukranien soldiers walking and singing national anthem trying to get to their place of work. Stopped by Russian soldiers gunfire (into air). Threatened to shoot them in the legs. Now standing where they've been told.

 

Good (and brave) move by the Ukraniens.

[Alf Bentley]

I feel sick.

 

 

I feel honoured!

[Jon the Hat]

 

I feel honoured!

 

In good news it appears the Russians have sent home their 150,000 troops who were on excercises near the Ukrainian border.

[Guest MattP]

Obama can't take Putin on? That begs the question that Obama would even bother in the first place when he would have little, if anything, to gain.

Putin isn't playing the strongest hand here. Under Putin's watch, the EU and NATO have parked right on his doorstep. On his biggest diplomacy "victory," Syria, Putin will definitely be on the wrong side of history. I guess Putin did kick some ass in such important geopolitical hotspots as South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and he does have that big trade union with Belarus' massive economy, though!

In Ukraine, Putin first tried everything including poisoning the opposition leader to get his boy in charge, and that failed. A mere decision on a trade agreement was all it took to stoke the opposition enough in Ukraine to force Yanukovych to flee. So now, Putin sends forces to an autonomous region in Ukraine where Russia already has naval bases, and that's supposed to be an intimidating show of force? Suddenly, Obama doesn't seem like such a milquetoast in comparison.

Putin isn't stupid enough to force NATO into war but Obama isn't stupid enough to give him that fight. They both know how to play this game.

Anyway, Europe buys Russian gas, and the customer is always right.

The comment wasn't really a "take me on" based on a personal level, more a point that no leaders now really fear or respect America, Assad in Syria, Putin in Moscow, anyone really, when it was Reagan, Clinton or Bush they were feared, you knew if you did something wrong you paid the price, with Obama you don;t get that feeling, I do a lot of travelling and I think he's the least respected US President ever, if you arent in US, Britain, France or Germany the people generally see him as a bit of a joke, in Sri Lanka a few of them reffered to him as USA Mr Chocolate face in a similar vein to the Borat movie.

 

Of course it's a show of force, he's sent his troops into a another country that has ousted one of his buddies, if you think he'll stop at the Crimea then fair play but I don't see him doing so.

 

Obama wanted to invade his mates in Syria (with decent support), he backed down. Putin wants to do the same to Baracks mate (with no support) and he just goes ahead and does it.

 

Forbes named Putin the most powerful man in the World in 2013, he's completely solidifying his position.

 

We don't just buy gas, we court the billionaires, very important to us and I want to see us have far closer ties with the Russians in the future, good people and strong people, good and strong leaders.

 

(On a side note how many of Sarah Palins predictions are coming true? I didn't like her but the woman must have a crystal ball)

 

Putin giving a sensible press conference here, interesting to hear the other side of the story instead of the bias drivel from our press.      

 

Too right, I try to use Twitter now for most news sources, what we get fed over here is so one sided it's untrue a lot of the time.

 

In good news it appears the Russians have sent home their 150,000 troops who were on excercises near the Ukrainian border.

 

Of course, they'll be needed in the Crimea.