Deucalion Posted 2 March 2014 Author Posted 2 March 2014 I think I'll just throw my oar in here too. The West always have and always will act against Serbs. Perhaps independence was the correct route for Yugoslavia however NATO's and American's relentless bombing of Serbs in Belgrade is amongst one of the worst war atrocities since World War II and as usual nobody is punished. The fact that Ante Gotovina was acquitted of war crimes (he was just as bad as Karadzic and Mladic) yet minor Serb politicians are being found guilty at the Hague says a lot. The heavily Serb populated areas of Krajina (in modern day Croatia) and Republic of Srpska in Bosnia and Herzegovina had as much right to independence to any other state however Krajina seen the largely ethnic cleansing programme since the second World War and Republic of Srpska is under the cosh from the EU as there are future fears that violence could one day break out again - particularly seeing as Kosovo and Republic of Srpska have very similar populations yet the West has pushed heavily for Kosovo independence but won't allow Republic of Srpska a sniff. It's all BBC and American driven propaganda. Didn't the UK once have a big war to protect Serbian independence, amongst other issues? The USA came in on the side of the Serbs too. So Nato bombing raids on Serbia were war crimes but ethnic cleansing wasn't?
Finnegan Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 Can somebody explain to me what is going on? It appears that I made the mistake of not really paying attention when the protests started about a week or so ago and now there is a lot of assumed knowledge in the news reports. Ukraine has a near 50/50 cultural split. Almost exactly half (according to national polls during Maidan) are pro-Ukraine, speak the language, pro-EU, colder on Russia. These people are typically in the West of the country. In 92, almost all of the country voted to leave the USSR but this was more about the state of the Soviet union than huge ill feeling to Russia across the board, a la Poland. The area with the highest concentration of "no" votes to independence was the East (and South) and today that's still an area where people mostly speak Russian, not Ukrainian, many consider themselves Russian and even those that don't are more favourable to Putin than Merkel. There's also a lot of an age/generational split with the youth being more pro-EU in general. Kiev is in the centre which is pro EU / Ukraine. Hence why it looked like a vast majority were against the old government. It also doesn't help the old government were corrupt as ****. Basically, there was already a strong cultural split and now current political wrangling has chucked a firework in the middle.
Nalis Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 Some of the quotes I have heard from Republican congressmen and senators have bordered on ridiculous in the past week...just be thankful there isn't a Republican president at the helm...
Jon the Hat Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 Some of the quotes I have heard from Republican congressmen and senators have bordered on ridiculous in the past week...just be thankful there isn't a Republican president at the helm... Its easy to be bold when your sole objective is to make the incumbent president look like an gutless idiot.
MC Prussian Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 I've not read posts on here in depth as much of it is more than likely fueled by BBC propaganda. So here's my tuppence. The Ukrainian's who are protesting are far right, bordering on Nazism. These are the same 'hooligans' that the BBC strongly condemned in the build up to the European Championships in 2012 yet are now being heralded as 'heroes' only two years later. With the high levels of involvement from America and their bitch, the UK, this indicates that this is what they want. They want the protesters to kick up a stink as they want to have closer ties to the EU, allowing Russia's opposition to close in closer to them. This is because the Americans and the EU see Russia as a threat, Putin is growing in stature and is building a strong nation, far stronger than the Americans, and they don't like that one bit. The only way this CAN lead is towards a civil war between Western Ukraine and the Crimea region/parts of Eastern Ukraine. It is not just a battle within Ukraine but between Russia and the West. Good luck to those protesters, let them have their way but no doubt they'll be running back to Russia when they go the same way as Greece and become pissed on by the EU and beginning paying extortionate prices for their minerals which Russia hands to them on a plate. A divide is growing in Europe, Eastern Europe and parts of Central Europe are growing closer and closer by the day to Russia. Long live Putin. The right-wing, fascist Svoboda goon squads are a minority. And they were simply using the protests to their own advantage. I also heard that a fair share of the protesters were supported by EU-friendly organizations, such as the German Konrad Adenauer foundation, which doesn't bode well on the "democratic" intentions of the West, I have to say. The USA are/were also dabbling with a forced change in their favor, just look up USAID and NED (National Endowment for Democracy) activities in the Ukraine. All in all, the EU, the US as well as Russia should all retreat and let the Ukrainians have their own say and vote on the future of their own country themselves. On a sidenote, I can see what you're doing here… using the issues in the Ukraine to support an general Eastern European (read: Serbian) agenda: "If they're doing it, we'll cause a ruckus, too!". Not surprising, seeing that Serbia has always had strong ties with Mother Russia.
bovril Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 Bloody typical that WW3 will break out just as we're about to get promoted.
MPH Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 Ukraine has a near 50/50 cultural split.. Huh? Ukrainian nationals make up a huge percent of the population. . There are less than 20% thay are Russian nationals. And even half of them have very strategically been fast tracked into citizenship. The Ukrainian police who shot the protesters? Been offered Russian passports!
Finnegan Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 I can't believe I used the term milf earlier and passed off the opportunity to use pmilf instead. Poor, poor form.
Finnegan Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 Huh? Ukrainian nationals make up a huge percent of the population. . There are less than 20% thay are Russian nationals. And even half of them have very strategically been fast tracked into citizenship. The Ukrainian police who shot the protesters? Been offered Russian passports! I wasn't talking ethnics, more politics. Polling had about 45 - 50% support for either side throughout the Maidan protests.
MPH Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 I wasn't talking ethnics, more politics. Polling had about 45 - 50% support for either side throughout the Maidan protests.But that was about joining the European union and closer ties to that. We now have Russian soldiers taking over airports and ports as well as surrounding Ukrainian military bases demanding entry... it's escalated way beyond that and has become a breach of sovereigntyEdit. Sorry looking after my son. .. Hardly a single Ukrainian national supports Russian military intervention. People are forgetting the
Finnegan Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 But that was about joining the European union and closer ties to that. We now have Russian soldiers taking over airports and ports as well as surrounding Ukrainian military bases demanding entry... it's escalated way beyond that and has become a breach of sovereignty I'm not really arguing with any of that? I don't think I've seen many people say Russian occupation is good news. Just pointing out that there isn't a clearcut majority in Ukraine that's either pro West or pro Russia.
MPH Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 I'm not really arguing with any of that? I don't think I've seen many people say Russian occupation is good news. Just pointing out that there isn't a clearcut majority in Ukraine that's either pro West or pro Russia. I bet if the poll was taken again now it would be hugely different... the previous polls only took into account the economic side of things...
Finnegan Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 I bet if the poll was taken again now it would be hugely different... the previous polls only took into account the economic side of things... Well obviously public opinion is going to shift when you roll up somewhere with tanks. But then equally, a lot of the east was immediately unhappy when the previous government was removed.
MC Prussian Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 Here's some more concise information about the seemingly complex issue: Paul Craig Roberts: In Ukraine, money is not the issue28.02.2014 14:07 Paul Craig Roberts, an American economist, kindly agreed to give his comment to Pravda.Ru regarding the current situation in Ukraine. "The US gives money only to two countries: to Israel and to Egypt as long as Egypt enables Israel's blockade and persecution of Palestinians. "The EU gives money to no one, not even to its poorest existing members such as Greece. The EU gives Greece loans so that Greece can pay back loans from private banks. However, in order to get the EU loans, Greece had to agreeto cutting government-paid pensions and social services and to selling off at low prices publicly owned assets to private capitalists. "The IMF gives money to no one. The IMF makes loans to governments that agree to impose austerity programs on citizens in order to pay back private banks. "Today on my website I posted a song just released by a Hungarian rock group about the devastation of Hungarythat resulted from EU membership and IMF loans. "Ukraine's economy is naturally integrated into the economy of Russia. If Ukraine joins the EU, it will lose the benefits ofthis integration in addition to being looted by Western bankers and corporations. "As Russia had already agreed to rescue the Ukrainian bonds and economy, the overthrow by Washington of the Ukrainian government for refusing to join the EU, which, of course, means NATO as well, was not related to Ukraine's economic predicament. "Washington brought down the Ukraine government in order to weaken Russia and make Russia less able to resistWashington's hegemony over the world. The only open question is whether Washington worked with the neo-nazis as well as with the so-called moderates, or whether Washington was caught off guard by the Right Sector and has lostcontrol of the coup. "If the latter, then Ukraine's economy will also suffer from war and dislocation. The ultra-nationalists are already striking out against the Russian populations in Ukraine. These are people with the right to Russian citizenship. Ifthey request citizenship, Russia will have to grant citizenship and protect its citizens. "The purposes of the coup in Ukraine are to deprive Russia of its naval base on the Black Sea, to cut Russia off frommilitary industries in Ukraine, and to establish US missile bases in Ukraine that degrade Russia's nuclear deterrent and render Russia unable to resist Washington's will. "Ukrainian economics has nothing whatsoever to do with the situation that Washington has brought about. To thinkthat the issue is money for Ukraine is to stick one's head in the sand like an ostrich. "An aggressive and reckless Washington has brought a direct strategic threat to Russia herself. "There are three possible outcomes. Russia will submit. Washington will back." http://english.pravda.ru/news/world/28-02-2014/126963-ukraine_money-0/
AlphaMaleFox Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 Here's some more concise information about the seemingly complex issue: http://english.pravda.ru/news/world/28-02-2014/126963-ukraine_money-0/ http://youtu.be/PwnCrunr03c The father of Reaganomics gone nuts, long time ago. Russia's puppet expert.
MC Prussian Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 http://youtu.be/PwnCrunr03c The father of Reaganomics gone nuts, long time ago. Russia's puppet expert. Based on what proof? At age 75, he can still write coherent sentences and fill them with some sense: Out of Control The Neo-Nazis of Ukraineby PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS Reality on the ground in Ukraine contradicts the incompetent and immoral Obama regime’s portrait of Ukrainian democracy on the march. To the extent that government exists in post-coup Ukraine, it is laws dictated by gun and threat wielding thugs of the neo-Nazi, Russophobic, ultra-nationalist, right-wing parties. Watch the video of the armed thug, Aleksandr Muzychko, who boosts of killing Russian soldiers in Chechnya, dictating to the Rovno regional parliament a grant of apartments to families of protesters. Read about the neo-nazis intimidating the Central Election Commission in order to secure rule and personnel changes in order to favor the ultra-right in the forthcoming elections. Thug Aleksandr Shevchenko informed the CEC that armed activists will remain in CEC offices in order to make certain that the election is not rigged against the neo-nazis. What he means, of course, is the armed thugs will make sure the neo-nazis win. If the neo-nazis don’t win, the chances are high that they will take power regardless. Members of President Yanukovich’s ruling party, the Party of Regions, have been shot, had arrest warrants issued for them, have experienced home invasions and physical threats, and are resigning in droves in hopes of saving the lives of themselves and their families. The prosecutor’s office in the Volyn region (western Ukraine) has been ordered by ultra-nationalists to resign en masse . Jewish synagogs and Eastern Orthodox Christian churches are being attacked. To toot my own horn, I might have been the first and only to predict that Washington’s organization of pro-EU Ukrainian politicians into a coup against the elected government of Ukraine would destroy democracy and establish the precedent that force prevails over elections, thereby empowering the organized and armed extreme right-wing. This is precisely what has happened. Note that there was no one in the Obama regime who had enough sense to see the obvious result of their smug, self-satisfied interference in the internal affairs of Ukraine. If a democratically elected president and ruling party are so easily driven from power by armed neo-nazis, what chance do Washington’s paid stooges among the so-called “moderates†have of forming a government? These are the corrupt people who wanted President Yanukovich out of office so that they could take the money instead. The corruption charge against Yanukovich was cover for the disloyal, undemocratic “moderate†schemers to seize power and be paid millions of dollars by Washington for taking Ukraine into the EU and NATO. The Washington-paid schemers are now reaping their just reward as they sit in craven silence while neo-nazi Muzychko wielding an Ak-47 challenges government officials to their face: “I dare you take my gun!†Only Obama, Susan Rice, Victoria Nuland, Washington’s European puppets, and the Western prostitute media can describe the brutal reality of post-coup Ukraine as “the forward march of democracy.†The West now faces a real mess, and so does Russia. The presstitutes will keep the American public from ever knowing what has happened, and the Obama regime will never admit it. It is not always clear that even the Russians want to admit it. The intelligent, reasonable, and humane Russian Foreign Minister, a person 100 cuts above the despicable John Kerry, keeps speaking as if this is all a mistake and appealing to the Western governments to stand behind the agreement that they pressured President Yanukovich to sign. Yanukovich is history, as are Washington’s “moderates.†The moderates are not only corrupt; they are stupid. The fools even disbanded the Riot Police, leaving themselves at the mercy of the armed right-wing nazi thugs. Ukraine is out of control. This is what happens when an arrogant, but stupid, Assistant Secretary of State (Victoria Nuland) plots with an equally arrogant and stupid US ambassador (Pyatt) to put their candidates in power once their coup against the elected president succeeds. The ignorant and deluded who deny any such plotting occurred can listen to the conversation between Nuland and Pyatt here. The situation will almost certainly lead to war. Only Putin’s diplomatic skills could prevent it. However, Putin has been demonized by Washington and the whores who comprise the US print and TV media. European and British politicians would have their Washington paychecks cut off if they aligned with Putin. War is unavoidable, because the Western public is out to lunch. The more facts and information I provide, the more emails I receive defending the “sincere [and well paid] protesters’ honest protests against corruption,†as if corruption were the issue. I hear from Ukrainians and from those of Ukrainian ethnicity in Canada and the US that it is natural for Ukrainians to hate Russians because Ukrainians suffered under communism, as if suffering under communism, which disappeared in 1991, is unique to Ukrainians and has anything to do with the US coup that has fallen into neo-nazi hands, No doubt. Many suffered under communism, including Russians. But was the suffering greater than the suffering of Japanese civilians twice nuked by the “Indispensable people,†or the suffering by German civilians whose cities were firebombed, like Tokyo, by the “exceptional people� Today Japan and Germany are Washington’s puppet states. In contrast, Ukraine was an independent country with a working relationship with Russia. It was this relationship that Washington wished to destroy. Now that a reckless and incompetent Washington has opened Pandora’s Box, more evil has been released upon the world. The suffering will not be confined to Ukraine. There are a number of reasons why the situation is likely to develop in a very bad way. One is that most people are unable to deal with reality even when reality directly confronts them. When I provide the facts as they are known, here are some of the responses I receive: “You are a Putin agent;†“you hate Ukrainians;†“you are defending corruption;†“you must not know how Ukrainians suffered at the hands of Stalin.†Of course, having done Russian studies in graduate school, having been a member of the US-USSR student exchange program in 1961, having traveled in Russia, Georgia, Ukraine, and Uzbekistan, having published in scholarly journals of Slavic and Russian studies, having twice addressed the Soviet Academy of Sciences, having been invited to explain to the CIA why the Soviet economic collapse occurred despite the CIA’s predictions to the contrary, I wouldn’t know anything about how people suffered under communism. The willingness of readers to display to me their utter ignorance and stupidity is astonishing. There is a large number of people who think reality consists of their delusions. Reality is simply too much for mentally and emotionally weak people who are capable of holding on to their delusions in the face of all evidence to the contrary. The masses of deluded people and the total inability of Washington, wallowing it its hubris, to admit a mistake, mean that Washington’s destabilization of Ukraine is a problem for us all. RT reports that “Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered an urgent military drill to test combat readiness of the armed forces across western and central Russia.†According to Russia’s Defense Minister, the surprise drill tested ground troops, Air Force, airborne troops and aerospace defense. The Defense Minister said: “The drills are not connected with events in Ukraine at all.†Yes, of course. The Defense Minister says this, because Putin still hopes that the EU will come to its senses. In my opinion, and I hope I am wrong, the European “leaders†are too corrupted by Washington’s money to have any sense. They are bought-and-paid-for. Nothing is important to them but money. Ask yourself, why does Russia need at this time an urgent readiness test unrelated to Ukraine? Anyone familiar with geography knows that western and central Russia sit atop Ukraine. Let us all cross our fingers that another war is not the consequence of the insouciant American public, the craven cowardice of the presstitute media, Washington’s corrupt European puppets, and the utter mendacity of the criminals who rule in Washington. Paul Craig Roberts is a former Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury and Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal. His latest book The Failure of Laissez-Faire Capitalism. Roberts’ How the Economy Was Lost is now available from CounterPunch in electronic format. http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/27/the-neo-nazis-of-ukraine/
AlphaMaleFox Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 Based on what proof? At age 75, he can still write coherent sentences and fill them with some sense: http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/27/the-neo-nazis-of-ukraine/ It's quite ironic to read this from a right wing white supremacist who has written repeatedly anti-disability, anti-jewish, anti-gay, anti-immigrant, anti-people of colour rants for years. http://www.vdare.com/users/paul-craig-roberts
MC Prussian Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 It's quite ironic to read this from a right wing white supremacist who has written repeatedly anti-disability, anti-jewish, anti-gay, anti-immigrant, anti-people of colour rants for years. http://www.vdare.com/users/paul-craig-roberts Can we stick with the subject of the Ukraine, please? Or else you might as well write him directly.
maynefox Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 Bloody typical that WW3 will break out just as we're about to get promoted. I'd like to see Lloyd Dyer as a messenger with his lightning pace on the front line! Seriously - I expect when I wake up tomorrow something will have happen with this apparent "5am" deadline, bloodshed or diplomacy.
Jon the Hat Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 Russia have given Ukraine forces in Crimea unitl 3am tomorrow morning UK time to surrender or face attack. Seems the defector couldn't talk his former forces into joining him.
bovril Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 I honestly thought at first this would blow over but now it's starting to get a bit hairy, 'specially as the NATO and US air bases nearest to Crimea are round my way!
Lionator Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 Still don't think us or the US will/should get involved. I can understand Putin's gripe. It's funny that so many people in this country want us out of the EU yet want us to support 'new' Ukraine who are pro EU.
bovril Posted 3 March 2014 Posted 3 March 2014 The US have been very reckless. You heard from the taped conversation two weeks ago that they have been itching to get involved in Ukraine and add them to their Eastern European buffer zone. Russia have played the long game very well the last decade, the 'West' don't really have the will to get involved in more conflict. Still bloody scary though, people are starting to get twitchy. This isn't another Bosnia or Syria, this is something very different and potentially quite volatile.
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