Rotherham & other City/Town child abuse scandals

[Rincewind]

I think Alf's last paragraph is pretty close to how I see it.

[Jon the Hat]

Alfs last paragraph also bears all the hallmarks of the typical defence of those who condone completely unacceptable behaviour "becuase it is their culture".  Sharia is not acceptable, viewing white girls as fair game is not acceptable, concillors covering up becuase of fears of upsetting communities is not acceptable, and the police failing to act on overwhelming evidence again and again is not acceptable.  Those reponsbile for all these acts should be investigated, arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  I also think South Yorkshire police should probably be disbanded entitrely and rolled into a neighbouring force, with everyone who was in place for more than a couple of those years, or involved in any way with this outrage made to apply for their jobs.

[MooseBreath]

The instruction not to do anything about the problem must have come from somewhere. Articles and interviews abound of people talking about how they were kept quiet. Would these instructions have been neatly written on letter headed paper and filed in a nice open-to-the-public cabinet? Yeah probably not. If you're going to sanction the rape of kids because you're scared of so called liberals calling you racist then you're probably not going to leave a trail.

What's abundantly clear is that this horrific abuse was wilfully ignored and we also know the reason why it was ignored. Enough evidence of this exists to put it beyond reasonable doubt. I can't see how the public availability of a specific instruction makes the slightest bit of difference at this point

As for political point scoring, I don't blame labour, I blame the everyday so called liberal who created the culture of fear around accusations of racism. That's not a political point, it's a social point.

[Rincewind]

Alfs last paragraph also bears all the hallmarks of the typical defense of those who condone completely unacceptable behavior "because it is their culture".  Sharia is not acceptable, viewing white girls as fair game is not acceptable, Councillors covering up because of fears of upsetting communities is not acceptable, and the police failing to act on overwhelming evidence again and again is not acceptable.  Those responsible for all these acts should be investigated, arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  I also think South Yorkshire police should probably be disbanded entirely and rolled into a neighbouring force, with everyone who was in place for more than a couple of those years, or involved in any way with this outrage made to apply for their jobs.

Agreed.

[Guest MattP]

I quite agree that the Labour Party in Rotherham and elsewhere has serious issues to address. Heads should roll, cultures should change and people should be prosecuted, if their guilt extends that far. The same applies in other places where similar outrages have been perpetrated, albeit on a smaller scale: e.g. in Rochdale (under Labour again) - and in Derby, which was under Tory-Lib Dem control until recently.... Did you raise that one and imply that the Tories had "instructed authority to ignore child gang rape"?

 

I'm glad to see you withdraw from your initial accusation, even if your withdrawal is partial and grudging. It is not only the word "authority" that is key, but the words "instructed....to ignore child rape". Rotherham council and the police rightly stand condemned for gross negligence and a "don't rock the racial boat" culture. If you have evidence that Labour councillors actively "instructed" someone to ignore what was going on in the knowledge that it was "child gang rape", then you should quote your source. If not, you should withdraw your accusation. What they are all clearly guilty of is quite bad enough without indulging in party political mud-slinging that could easily amount to defamation if unfounded.

 

Some other points:

- The Denis you quote seems to be MacShane, not Skinner (though "Sinner" is entirely appropriate as he's just been in jail for fiddling expenses); MacShane was MP for Rotherham, whereas Skinner is "the Beast of Bolsover". MacShane's comments support the idea that race relations were put ahead of child safety, which is shameful - and sickening, as you rightly say.

- The Police Chief was not only a "high-ranking Labour Party member", as you say, he was head of Children's Services for 5 years while this was going on! So, even if none of this happened since he became Police Chief (which was only in 2012), he should resign as he's not clearly not fit for public office.

- I appreciate that by having sex with (very) under-age girls these blokes were committing rape under the law, even if it was consensual. Anyone who knew that was happening should have reported it, but there's a difference of scale between knowing that consensual under-age sex is going on and "instructing [authority] to ignore child gang rape".

- I'm glad to see you highlighting several instances in which the police failed to do their job to a scandalous extent. Even if elected or appointed officials allow such outrages to happen (and they certainly shouldn't), the police should step in. They clearly failed abysmally for years on end.

 

I'm not defending what went on in the slightest, just contesting your misinformation. Everyone from the Labour Party (and other parties elsewhere) to Rotherham Council and the police should change their cultures and processes to prevent this happening again. Any individuals whose guilt extends to criminality should be prosecuted, alongside those who perpetrated these crimes. But your decision to make exaggerated (if not fabricated) accusations so as to use this outrage to indulge in party political smears is itself pretty sickening. Nowhere as sickening as the "blind eye" / "prioritise race relations" culture of Labour Rotherham, though, not to mention the blokes who actually committed these upsetting crimes.

 

Sorry McShane, it was a passing read when I first saw it and thought it was Skinner!

 

I'm not completey withdrawing the allegations at all because all though they can't be proven as is stated above it's quite clear to anyone where a lot of these orders would have came from and the reasons for it. When members of that party openly admit to 'not rocking the multicultural boat' I think it's quite clear blind eyes were turned to this, the fact we can't prove that they didn't instruct authority to do this doesn't mean you can't come to some pretty obvious conclusions given the tone.

 

I think Moose has probably got it right when says it shouldn't be a political point blaming a party, but more a condemnation of some of the social attitudes in this country over the last 10-15 years that have allowed these gangs to act without scrutiny and even have the confidence to turn up at the schoolgates with bottles of vodka to pick them up, the whole of the 'liberal elite' should take the blame for this, they were the ones whose aggressive pursuement to slander and destroy anyone as racist who dared question this sort of thing, they were and still are the problem and they are the ones who should look at themselves in the mirror and realise they are also culpable for the rape of thousands of innocent children all across this country just so they could revel in their own ignorance about how wonderfully liberal they are.

 

I'd love to believe what you say in that last paragraph would come to fruition but I've already seen and heard it before on numerous occasions, I'm convinced we'll go through this again soon, the same excuses will be trotted out, the same sort of people will be sat on the council again having allowed it to happen and the same sort of half tracked apology will again be wheeled out before not being acted on.

[Alf Bentley]

 

- I DON'T assume it's "just a cultural misunderstanding". There are people from all sorts of backgrounds in this country, so flexibility has to be shown within reason. My own (Irish) grandparents had an arranged marriage, for example. But flexibility can only apply within boundaries acceptable to British society - and grooming vulnerable underage girls for sex abuse or threatening them with violence certainly isn't acceptable [...]. If Pakistani men or anyone from any background are doing those things, they need to be stopped - and if the culture applies mainly to particular racial or religious groups, that needs to be dealt with, too.

 

 

Alfs last paragraph also bears all the hallmarks of the typical defence of those who condone completely unacceptable behaviour "becuase it is their culture".  Sharia is not acceptable, viewing white girls as fair game is not acceptable, concillors covering up becuase of fears of upsetting communities is not acceptable, and the police failing to act on overwhelming evidence again and again is not acceptable.  Those reponsbile for all these acts should be investigated, arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  I also think South Yorkshire police should probably be disbanded entitrely and rolled into a neighbouring force, with everyone who was in place for more than a couple of those years, or involved in any way with this outrage made to apply for their jobs.

 

I struggle to see how you can interpret my comments in that way, Jon. I've repeatedly condemned both the (mainly Pakistani Muslim) men involved and all those who allowed it to happen. Apologies for self-quoting, but see my comments above yours for my opinion of the "it's their culture" argument...not that I've heard anyone express that here. Otherwise, I agree with pretty much everything you say.

 

The instruction not to do anything about the problem must have come from somewhere. Articles and interviews abound of people talking about how they were kept quiet. Would these instructions have been neatly written on letter headed paper and filed in a nice open-to-the-public cabinet? Yeah probably not. If you're going to sanction the rape of kids because you're scared of so called liberals calling you racist then you're probably not going to leave a trail.

What's abundantly clear is that this horrific abuse was wilfully ignored and we also know the reason why it was ignored. Enough evidence of this exists to put it beyond reasonable doubt. I can't see how the public availability of a specific instruction makes the slightest bit of difference at this point

As for political point scoring, I don't blame labour, I blame the everyday so called liberal who created the culture of fear around accusations of racism. That's not a political point, it's a social point.

 

When Matt implied that people had been "instructed to ignore child gang rape", I assumed the alleged instructions were verbal.

 

Various people certainly seem to have been asked to pipe down so as not to rock the boat of racial harmony. I imagine a lot of the time it was more a culture of assumptions - people playing things down because they assumed that was what was expected, without needing to be instructed. They got their priorities wrong to a horrendous extent. Even if some or all of them didn't know the full extent of what was going on, they knew enough that they should have seen the abuse as the priority, not racial harmony.

 

I actually tend to agree with the rest of your comments - and Matt's latest comments, to a large extent, though I hope his pessimistic comments at the end are proved wrong. Surely the lesson will be at least partly learned now?

 

The truth condemns these people quite enough without any need for exaggerated claims.

[Dr The Singh]

The word authority is the key so i suppose no, although it's been proven beyond doubt i think that Labour councillors were prepared to ignore accusations of child rape as not to upset community relations and the people who vote for them, to me that's as bad anyway and I think to try and defend it in any way shape or form is fairly dangerous and could lead to similar situations in the future.

 

With this and the PIE scandal last year I think it's clear the party has some issues to address with it's links to paedophilia and it's tolerance in a lot of cases of it. Let's not forget the Police Chief in charge of this was a high ranking Labour party member as well so I think it's fair to say a lot of close contact would have been . It's quite sickening.

 

Here's the article with Sinner's comments in, given he was an MP for Rotherham when you read things like it it's very easy to see how these things did actually happen.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11059138/Rotherham-In-the-face-of-such-evil-who-is-the-racist-now.html

 

Let’s start with a riddle. If South Yorkshire Police can mount a raid on Sir Cliff Richard’s home in pursuit of evidence linked to a single allegation of child sex abuse 30 years ago, why were South Yorkshire Police incapable of pursuing multiple allegations against multiple men who raped 1,400 children over 16 years?

One thousand four hundred. Consider the weight of that number, feel its tragic heft. Picture 50 junior-school classes of little girls in Rotherham, once a respectable northern town, now a byword for depravity. We have seen child-grooming cases before, but the disgusting stories revealed in the report by Professor Alexis Jay amount to evidence of abuse on an industrial scale.

 

Men of Pakistani heritage treated white girls like toilet paper. They picked children up from schools and care homes and trafficked them across northern cities for other men to join in the fun. They doused a 15-year-old in petrol and threatened to set her alight should she dare to report them. They menaced entire families and made young girls watch as they raped other children.

These truly horrible things happened in our country – not in the distant, cruel past, but as recently as last year. All but one of the perpetrators were Muslims of Pakistani heritage who would have related to Cliff’s hit, Living Doll.

 

The living dolls of Rotherham were bent and twisted to their masters’ will. There was no escape. As the sterling Professor Jay observes, South Yorkshire Police “regarded many child victims with contempt”.

One 11-year-old known as Child H told police that she and another girl had been sexually assaulted by grown men. Nothing was done. When she was 12, Child H was found in the back of a taxi with a man who had indecent pictures of her on his phone. Despite the full co-operation of her father, who insisted his daughter was being abused, police failed to act. Four months later, Child H was found in a house alone with a group of Pakistani men. What did the police do? They arrested the child for being drunk and disorderly and ignored her abusers. As President Obama said about the fiends who beheaded the journalist James Foley: “No just God would stand for what they did.”

My, what the British people would give to hear such ringing moral condemnation from our own political leaders.

The Labour Party, in particular, is mired in shame over “cultural sensitivity” in Rotherham. Especially, cynics might point out, a sensitivity to the culture of Muslims whose votes they don’t want to lose. Denis MacShane, MP for Rotherham from 1994 to 2012, actually admitted to the BBC’s World At One that “there was a culture of not wanting to rock the multicultural community boat, if I may put it like that. Perhaps, yes, as a true Guardian reader and liberal Leftie, I suppose I didn’t want to raise that too hard.” Much better to hang on to your impeccable liberal credentials than save a few girls from being raped, eh, Denis?

Equally horrifying is the suggestion that certain Pakistani councillors asked social workers to reveal the addresses of the shelters where some of the abused girls were hiding. The former deputy leader of the council, Jahangir Akhtar, is accused of “ignoring a politically inconvenient truth” by insisting there was not a deep-rooted problem of Pakistani-heritage perpetrators targeting young white girls. The inquiry was told that influential Pakistani councillors acted as “barriers to communication” on grooming issues.

Front-line youth workers who submitted reports in 2002, 2003 and 2006 expressing their alarm at the scale of the child sex-offending say the town hall told them to keep quiet about the ethnicity of the perpetrators in the interests of “community cohesion”.

Fear of appearing racist trumped fears of more children being abused. Not only were negligent officials not prosecuted, they prospered. Shaun Wright, a former Labour councillor who was in charge of Rotherham children’s services during a five-year period when a blind eye was turned to the worst case of mass child abuse in British history, is now South Yorkshire’s Police and Crime Commissioner. Oh, Jonathan Swift, thou shouldst be writing at this hour!

Jane Collins, the Ukip MEP for Yorkshire and Humber, has called for Mr Wright to stand down, a demand that has been echoed by Labour as it realises the full horror of what was done – or not done – by its councillors. “To cover up something of this scale, it is evil,” says Mrs Collins.

It’s impossible not to share that incredulous fury. Powerless white working-class girls were caught between a hateful, imported culture of vicious misogyny on the one hand, and on the other a culture of chauvinism among the police, who regarded them as worthless slags. Officials trained up in diversity and political correctness failed to acknowledge what was effectively white slavery on their doorstep. Much too embarrassing to concede that it wasn’t white people who were committing racist hate crimes in this instance.

The whole thing is like a real-life episode of Prime Suspect, in which councillors, the police and child-protection staff collude to give a bunch of sadistic thugs licence to pimp a town’s most vulnerable children. As they say in Yorkshire: “They want shooting, the lot of them.”

This will come as no comfort to the 1,400 brutalised girls, many of whom have self-harmed or committed suicide, but I reckon Rotherham may be the final nail in the coffin of multiculturalism. Far from discouraging racism, the Labour policy of withholding the ethnic identity of men who preyed on white girls backfired spectacularly. Criminally, it endangered hundreds of children who might otherwise have been spared. A recent poll showed that 44 per cent of young Britons believe that Muslims do not share the same values as the rest of the population, while 28 per cent said they felt Britain would be “better off” with fewer Muslims.

Attitudes are even more negative among older people. A recent Radio 4 item about how junior jihadists spending their gap year massacring people in Iraq could be “reintegrated” into British society produced hoots of derision on social media and spilt tea across the breakfast tables of England. (Hands up anyone who wants the blighters back?) The period of giving the benefit of the doubt to young Muslims who go on “camping holidays” to Syria is over. Undoubtedly, the fact that “Jihadi John”, the hooded man who was party to the beheading of James Foley, spoke with a London accent has provoked further despair about the widespread failure of Muslims to integrate. Has it really come to this? A child raised with all the freedoms and blessings of a British upbringing behaving like a natural-born barbarian.

My colleague Boris Johnson’s excellent suggestion that any Britons who travel to Syria and Iraq without informing the authorities should be presumed to be potential terrorists until proven innocent produced howls of outrage from the human rights brigade – but it struck an entire symphony of chords with Britons of all creeds and colours who are sick of being taken for mugs.

 

 

There are other hopeful signs. The Rotherham scandal seems temporarily to have silenced those who insist, every time a child-grooming case is exposed, that most paedophiles are white. Indeed they are; but the Rotherham abusers were not paedophiles. They were men of Pakistani heritage slaking their lust on young girls they regarded as white trash because they knew they could get away with it. It grieves me to say they were right. Like South Yorkshire Police, they treated 1,400 defenceless children “with contempt”.

On Channel 4 News on Tuesday, Javed Khan, the chief executive of Barnardo’s, refused to give a straight answer to a question about the part that “ethnicity” played in the abuse of girls in Rotherham. As the presenter Jackie Long persisted, Mr Khan insisted that we should not be focusing on the identity of the perpetrators because it “distracted attention” from the children who were their victims.

On the contrary. It is of the utmost importance that wider society wakes up to the fact that there is what the inquiry found to be a “deep-rooted problem of Pakistani-heritage perpetrators targeting young white girls”. Many of us who have been saying this for a long time have been shouted down as racist. Thanks to Prof Jay, it has been stated publicly for the first time that the fear of appearing racist was more pressing in official minds than enforcing the law of the land or rescuing terrified children. It is one of the great scandals of our lifetime.

The Labour council of Rotherham stands accused of ignoring child sex abuse on an unimaginable scale for 16 years. There can be no more serious charge against a public body. Former councillors who dismissed evidence or otherwise attempted to pervert the course of justice should be arrested. Officers who snubbed appeals from desperate children and their families have no place in our police force.

Thus far, a mere five men have been jailed in connection with the disgusting crimes in Rotherham. A further 30 are under investigation. We need a campaign to get other abused children to come forward and receive the appropriate help. We need them to identify the perpetrators. Shame and name, and shame again. Above all, we need those girls to know that what was done to them was criminal, and the way those crimes were ignored and suppressed by powerful men with a political agenda was despicable as well as criminal. To avoid rocking the multicultural boat, they fed 1,400 children to the sharks. No just God would stand for what they did.

 

I've highlighted some of the comments I find most shocking.

 

The story about the police barging in on a house full of them with a drunk young teenager in the middle of them is the most disgusting, I don't think even Captain Pancake Face would have sought to blame the young girl for that situation and arrest her. As we sit here now the people responsible stil haven't resigned, the public should be hanging them from nooses and instead I'm actually fearing they won't only get away with it but actually keep their jobs as well!

 

 

Yep, I can't even begin to imagine what it must have been like to have to know your child was being drugged and gang raped but there was nothing you could do about it due to people wanting to be 'politically correct'.

 

The Sikhs down here had the right idea, that's the real way to nip it in the bud, white people have become so pathetic in dealing with these sort of actions these days sometimes I think we deserve what we have created anyway.

I despair, i'm going to have beer as according to the Koran, ..what my right hand possess!!

 

If it was a group of white men that groomed muslim girls, would this be the case???

Edited 4 September 2014 by Dr The Singh

[Rincewind]

I have seen from some sources (not the Mail) that there were some dodgy going ons in the Thatcher regime and there was a little covering up  in high places but little has spread to the mainstream media. Of course it is all bollox, lies spread by the loony left. I wonder if in a year or two time people will have a different view?

I also never saw the paragraph I quoted from Alf as condoning the actions of the culprits. That is how I see them as first 'culprits' then look at  their culture then their politics last. White men who groom girls for prostitution -of which there are many- do not have po;itical labels nor cultual ones and neither should the culprits in this case, They are guilty if found so in a court of law, of horrendous crimes and that is what they should be judged upon.

Edited 4 September 2014 by Rincewind

[Webbo]

I have seen from some sources (not the Mail) that there were some dodgy going ons in the Thatcher regime but little has spread to the mainstream media. Of course it is all bollox, lies spread by the loony left. I wonder if in a year or two time people will have a different view?

You obviously weren't looking very hard then because the Mail was full of stories about it.

[Dr The Singh]

I have seen from some sources (not the Mail) that there were some dodgy going ons in the Thatcher regime and there was a little covering up  in high places but little has spread to the mainstream media. Of course it is all bollox, lies spread by the loony left. I wonder if in a year or two time people will have a different view?

Ofcourse because that is important in this case!!

[Rincewind]

You obviously weren't looking very hard then because the Mail was full of stories about it.

Okay I should not have mentioned the Mail It was a last moment addition. But I suspect they debunked the rumours and there has been little news since. With the Jimmy Saville etc. cases there were a lot of people within the BBC who must have been aware of what was going on and their ethnic and political status did not change their guilt.

I agree with most of what people say so I do not know why I am arguing..

[Webbo]

Okay I should not have mentioned the Mail It was a last moment addition. But I suspect they debunked the rumours and there has been little news since. With the Jimmy Saville etc. cases there were a lot of people within the BBC who must have been aware of what was going on and their ethnic and political status did not change their guilt.

I agree with most of what people say so I do not know why I am arguing..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2732234/Revealed-The-Full-horrifying-truth-Sir-Nicholas-Fairbairn-paedophile-Margaret-Thatcher-s-side.html 

 

If that's an attempt at debunking it's a pretty poor one.

 

The fact is at the minute these are just accusations,that's not to say it isn't true.  There has been an official inquiry into what happened in Rotherham and these are the facts. Just saying "the Tories are worse" is a pathetic get out that ignores and belittles genuine victims.

[Dr The Singh]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2732234/Revealed-The-Full-horrifying-truth-Sir-Nicholas-Fairbairn-paedophile-Margaret-Thatcher-s-side.html

 

If that's an attempt at debunking it's a pretty poor one.

 

The fact is at the minute these are just accusations,that's not to say it isn't true.  There has been an official inquiry into what happened in Rotherham and these are the facts. Just saying "the Tories are worse" is a pathetic get out that ignores and belittles genuine victims.

I can't believe Ken is turning this into a Labour vs Tory shitfest, the fact that this was under Labours watch, tells us those feckers are fooked up and action needs to happen.  If it were BNP. Tory or whoever, we should all be saying the same.  Ken get your foookin act together because a man of your age should have better sense!!!

[Rincewind]

It is not me. I am saying it is NOT a political issue and yes whoever ran the council the result should be the same.It is a crime of abuse which I have been saying all along. I could not care which fecking party they supported.

And I have never said the Tories are worse. It was the assumpyion by some that the Tories are squeaky clean and all I am saying is that they are all capable of being as bad as each other.

Edited 4 September 2014 by Rincewind

[ADK]

I feel that the police should be fully independent of local government.

[Guest MattP]

Okay I should not have mentioned the Mail It was a last moment addition. But I suspect they debunked the rumours and there has been little news since. With the Jimmy Saville etc. cases there were a lot of people within the BBC who must have been aware of what was going on and their ethnic and political status did not change their guilt.

I agree with most of what people say so I do not know why I am arguing..

The thread went 5 pages without the Tories being mentioned then you mentioned them 5 times in 7 posts.

But of course you don't want to bring politics into it.

[Rincewind]

I feel that the police should be fully independent of local government.

There will still be contact and if there are bad eggs they will still be there. Just need honest people. I doubt the bobby on the beat knows what goes on at the highest level. They do the  arrest and make the report and with these cases pass any complaints to seniors. I cannot understand how these things slipped through so many people there must have been change of personnel in a few departments who would have different outlooks,

[Carl the Llama]

The thread went 5 pages without the Tories being mentioned then you mentioned them 5 times in 7 posts.

But of course you don't want to bring politics into it.

Only because you were banging on about Labour instead...

[Guest MattP]

Only because you were banging on about Labour instead...

Well obviously given they control Rotherham council and their own MP's are apologising for the behaviour of it.

[Rincewind]

Lessons need to be learned from this.

[Carl the Llama]

Well obviously given they control Rotherham council and their own MP's are apologising for the behaviour of it.

Right, but the point Rince was making is that you were being perhaps a bit too keen to use it as a Labour bashing stick given that it's not institutional behaviour unique to Labour areas.

[Rincewind]

I appogise jf my words were misinterpreted. I am in full agreement that the perpetrators that are guilty should be punished whoever they are..

Rotherham is just one council.

Edited 4 September 2014 by Rincewind

[Strokes]

There should be extensive investigations to see how widespread this may be. One case is shocking enough.

[Jon the Hat]

Right, but the point Rince was making is that you were being perhaps a bit too keen to use it as a Labour bashing stick given that it's not institutional behaviour unique to Labour areas.

The point being made is that Labour might have swept it under the carpet because it risked their Pakistani votes.

[Alf Bentley]

The point being made is that Labour might have swept it under the carpet because it risked their Pakistani votes.

 

That's certainly one of several issues that needs to be investigated. Personally, I suspect Moose is closer to the truth, in suggesting that it might have been due to a more widespread "liberal" culture of anti-racism taken too far so that people saw that as too high a priority (ahead of widespread criminal child abuse?!?) and were scared of being accused of racism. The fact that the "blind eye" culture took in paid council officials and the South Yorks police tends to support this. Likewise, the fact that a similar outrage occurred on a smaller scale under Tory/Lib Dem run Derby Council suggests that these "blind eye" attitudes weren't limited to the Labour Party...though the Labour Party is certainly at the forefront of the organisations that need to ask themselves serious questions.

 

Would be good if you could either back up your accusation that I "condone completely unacceptable behaviour because "it is their [Pakistanis'] culture" or withdraw it. I don't see where I've said anything remotely like that. I've repeatedly condemned the behaviour in question and re-quoted my earlier comment specifically arguing the opposite! You seem to have overlooked or ignored that....