shade Posted 24 November 2014 Share Posted 24 November 2014 He's trying to argue that other governments are more evil and not everyone in Isis is Evil , so i'm going to stand by my comment I guess I'm arguing that evil is subjective, the Israeli government would say Hamas is evil, Hamas would say Israel is evil. can they both be right? is everyone evil? is nobody evil? Stalin was an evil man but we were glad of his help to defeat the nazis. I don't think there is more "moral" evil, beheading a man on camera or sanctioning a bombing where you know without doubt that civilians will die are both evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCFC FOX Posted 24 November 2014 Share Posted 24 November 2014 What were they singing? Didn't even know what England were singing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The God Emperor Posted 24 November 2014 Share Posted 24 November 2014 I guess I'm arguing that evil is subjective, the Israeli government would say Hamas is evil, Hamas would say Israel is evil. can they both be right? is everyone evil? is nobody evil? Stalin was an evil man but we were glad of his help to defeat the nazis. I don't think there is more "moral" evil, beheading a man on camera or sanctioning a bombing where you know without doubt that civilians will die are both evil. Bit off topic but good and evil certainly aren't subjective. It's that kind of relativism that's causing the rot in society. "there are no absoloutes" "Nothing's black and white, it's all shades of grey" are nothing more than excuses that people use to ratrionalise their own despicable behaviour and the abhorrent actions of groups and individuals they support. Let's take the Israeli-Hamas example you used. The Israeli government by their actions that border on genocide are objectively evil/bad/wrong, they are the ones intiating the force. Hamas are the group using force but it is in retaliation so it could be argued that objectively they are good/right. But that isn't enough to decide wether they are good or evil, a closer look at their goals is required. If Hamas where to achieve a free Palestinian state would it be a republic where all are equal in the eyes of the law regardless of gender and the rights of the individual are upheld above all else? I dought it. I imagine Hamas want to establish another backward Islamic dictatorship. I could be wrong, I haven't really bothered to read up on Hamas's goals, but history tells me that they want to do the latter. So objectively they are both evil. You could could argue that one is the lesser evil, but a lesser evil is still an evil. Enough philosophy, up the citeh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blue Moon Posted 24 November 2014 Share Posted 24 November 2014 At least if Britain does become an Islamic dictatorship in a few decades time there'll be one benefit. No women allowed at football matches! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleckneymike Posted 24 November 2014 Share Posted 24 November 2014 David Squires sums it up quite well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGEROUS TIGER Posted 24 November 2014 Share Posted 24 November 2014 Any level headed person, would not agree with what the I.R.A. were, but I don't see the value of anti I.R.A. songs being sung at a football match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deucalion Posted 24 November 2014 Share Posted 24 November 2014 I heard that bomb go off back in 1990. Was about 5:45 pm I think, and in the winter as it was already dark. Was around 200 yards away. And before anyone says it...no I didn't plant it !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 24 November 2014 Share Posted 24 November 2014 Bit off topic but good and evil certainly aren't subjective. It's that kind of relativism that's causing the rot in society. "there are no absoloutes" "Nothing's black and white, it's all shades of grey" are nothing more than excuses that people use to ratrionalise their own despicable behaviour and the abhorrent actions of groups and individuals they support. Let's take the Israeli-Hamas example you used. The Israeli government by their actions that border on genocide are objectively evil/bad/wrong, they are the ones intiating the force. Hamas are the group using force but it is in retaliation so it could be argued that objectively they are good/right. But that isn't enough to decide wether they are good or evil, a closer look at their goals is required. If Hamas where to achieve a free Palestinian state would it be a republic where all are equal in the eyes of the law regardless of gender and the rights of the individual are upheld above all else? I dought it. I imagine Hamas want to establish another backward Islamic dictatorship. I could be wrong, I haven't really bothered to read up on Hamas's goals, but history tells me that they want to do the latter. So objectively they are both evil. You could could argue that one is the lesser evil, but a lesser evil is still an evil. Enough philosophy, up the citeh! 2 points- the phrase ' there are no absolutes' has always amused me because that phrase is an absolute! If you get a chance read a book called 'Son of Hamas'. It's written by the Son of one of the founding members of Hamas who was quite high up in the Hamas Youth Wing. He ended up turning his back on Hamas largely because he was appalled and sickened at how they treated their own people. It's a compelling read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry - LCFC Posted 24 November 2014 Share Posted 24 November 2014 Bit off topic but good and evil certainly aren't subjective. It's that kind of relativism that's causing the rot in society. "there are no absoloutes" "Nothing's black and white, it's all shades of grey" are nothing more than excuses that people use to ratrionalise their own despicable behaviour and the abhorrent actions of groups and individuals they support. Let's take the Israeli-Hamas example you used. The Israeli government by their actions that border on genocide are objectively evil/bad/wrong, they are the ones intiating the force. Hamas are the group using force but it is in retaliation so it could be argued that objectively they are good/right. But that isn't enough to decide wether they are good or evil, a closer look at their goals is required. If Hamas where to achieve a free Palestinian state would it be a republic where all are equal in the eyes of the law regardless of gender and the rights of the individual are upheld above all else? I dought it. I imagine Hamas want to establish another backward Islamic dictatorship. I could be wrong, I haven't really bothered to read up on Hamas's goals, but history tells me that they want to do the latter. So objectively they are both evil. You could could argue that one is the lesser evil, but a lesser evil is still an evil. Enough philosophy, up the citeh! What rot? Crime isn't going up, it's falling gradually. I think most people would accept that various forms of discrimination are following the same path downwards. It's a bit more difficult to pin down but I don't get any impression that people are treating each with less respect than they did before. I've heard it said a few times but I really don't agree with this notion that society is becoming less moral over time. There are a few people who apologise for certain atrocities but those views are largely shunned by most people in my experience. I'm someone who doesn't believe in objective morality either and I don't want to be put alongside the kind of people I we both have in mind. My belief isn't a case of me trying to apologise away any wrong behaviour on my part, it's simply what I think is the truth. You cannot prove that murder is wrong in the way that you can prove that water boils at 100 degrees. So it isn't objective. I'm not comfortable with this idea but I can't not believe something if I don't like it. Maybe it is off topic but with some of the things being said this is the type of thread to discuss this sort of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwan is a Welshman Posted 24 November 2014 Share Posted 24 November 2014 Of course it's a stupid chant. It's embarrassing. Not sure what having Irish heritage has got to do with the issue though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwan is a Welshman Posted 24 November 2014 Share Posted 24 November 2014 Of course it's a stupid chant. It's embarrassing. Not sure what having Irish heritage has got to do with the issue though. I love the defence to that as well. "The IRA are bad." Of course they are. That's obvious too. It's just got **** all to do with us failing to score past a shit Sunderland side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnup Posted 25 November 2014 Share Posted 25 November 2014 Any level headed person, would not agree with what the I.R.A. were, but I don't see the value of anti I.R.A. songs being sung at a football match. That is an opinion that ignores a HUGE amount of history and is incredibly ethnocentric im afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwan is a Welshman Posted 25 November 2014 Share Posted 25 November 2014 That is an opinion that ignores a HUGE amount of history and is incredibly ethnocentric im afraid. Is it? Irrelevant of your views on Irish independence how can you support an organisation with their record? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 25 November 2014 Share Posted 25 November 2014 Is it? Irrelevant of your views on Irish independence how can you support an organisation with their record? Because the Loyalists they were up against were no better. The killing, torture and extrajudicial punishment was meted out in both directions during that filthy war. It's not a case of supporting the IRA, it's knowing that the lot they were fighting were not on the side of the angels either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-man Posted 25 November 2014 Share Posted 25 November 2014 Singing anti-IRA songs is as irrelevant and as pointless as the 'Kenwyne Jones sells watches on the beach' chant which despite being openly racist is STILL getting an airing by a few morons most weeks. Here's an idea: sing up for the team you are supposed to be supporting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwan is a Welshman Posted 25 November 2014 Share Posted 25 November 2014 Because the Loyalists they were up against were no better. The killing, torture and extrajudicial punishment was meted out in both directions during that filthy war. It's not a case of supporting the IRA, it's knowing that the lot they were fighting were not on the side of the angels either. "It's not a case of supporting the IRA." That's my point - and it's why what Dangerous Tiger said wasn't ethnocentric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LcfcBaker Posted 25 November 2014 Share Posted 25 November 2014 At least if Britain does become an Islamic dictatorship in a few decades time there'll be one benefit. No women allowed at football matches! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 25 November 2014 Share Posted 25 November 2014 Because the Loyalists they were up against were no better. The killing, torture and extrajudicial punishment was meted out in both directions during that filthy war. It's not a case of supporting the IRA, it's knowing that the lot they were fighting were not on the side of the angels either. That is irrelevant, Dennis Wise would still be a cvnt, even if he was in a fight against Billy Davies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monsell1976 Posted 25 November 2014 Share Posted 25 November 2014 What rot? Crime isn't going up, it's falling gradually. I think most people would accept that various forms of discrimination are following the same path downwards. It's a bit more difficult to pin down but I don't get any impression that people are treating each with less respect than they did before. I've heard it said a few times but I really don't agree with this notion that society is becoming less moral over time. There are a few people who apologise for certain atrocities but those views are largely shunned by most people in my experience. I'm someone who doesn't believe in objective morality either and I don't want to be put alongside the kind of people I we both have in mind. My belief isn't a case of me trying to apologise away any wrong behaviour on my part, it's simply what I think is the truth. You cannot prove that murder is wrong in the way that you can prove that water boils at 100 degrees. So it isn't objective. I'm not comfortable with this idea but I can't not believe something if I don't like it. Maybe it is off topic but with some of the things being said this is the type of thread to discuss this sort of thing. Don't want to get involved in this conversation, but just thought I would add the police last week were found to be corrupting the crime figures, to hit targets, so reported crime is down, but the police have been proved not to be reporting it, so crime is probaly at the level it's always been, maybe or maybe not up slightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 25 November 2014 Share Posted 25 November 2014 "It's not a case of supporting the IRA." That's my point - and it's why what Dangerous Tiger said wasn't ethnocentric. Agree with that. That is irrelevant, Dennis Wise would still be a cvnt, even if he was in a fight against Billy Davies. Very much true. Though I think we do pay more attention to Dennis Wise than Billy Davies in this country when they're both cvnts, if you follow me. Either way, I do absolutely agree there's no place for sectarian shite like that at a football match, whether Leicester or anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Fox Posted 25 November 2014 Share Posted 25 November 2014 That bloke sounds like he needs his carer. Just because he's scottish, it doesn't mean he needs a carer Bilo! Joking aside, those soldiers probably couldn't care less and would find it pretty amusing being 'abused' by a some p****d up Scots. People who are just trying to make a scene by chanting and videoing it for the Internet, because they're clearly very bitter people, for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Fox Posted 25 November 2014 Share Posted 25 November 2014 Because the Loyalists they were up against were no better. The killing, torture and extrajudicial punishment was meted out in both directions during that filthy war. It's not a case of supporting the IRA, it's knowing that the lot they were fighting were not on the side of the angels either. That all becomes very irrelevant when innocent civilians are being targeted doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titterofwit Posted 25 November 2014 Share Posted 25 November 2014 One issue here is that the loyalists have very close links with extreme right wing organisations like c18 or the BNP. The anti IRA chanting more than likely emanates from a groups that have such views. Hiding in plain site and all that. Not defending the Provisional IRA by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bamba's Babes Posted 25 November 2014 Author Share Posted 25 November 2014 Of course it's a stupid chant. It's embarrassing. Not sure what having Irish heritage has got to do with the issue though. The same reason an Asian would take offence to the word P@k1 or a German to the bombing songs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerrrFox Posted 25 November 2014 Share Posted 25 November 2014 The same reason an Asian would take offence to the word P@k1 or a German to the bombing songs... Not really though is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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