Paris Shooting

[Guest MattP]

About which point? Birmingham schools? Or Abu Hamza et al?

As a Christian am I just lying for them?

Everything. Every single point you make to a Muslim to ask why the community fail to spot something that seems to be more widespread than chlamydia.

We've just had another on the BBC now even trying claim not only is nothing to do with Islam but also nothing to actually do with the Charlie Hebdo magazine. Apparently it's a response to the Iraq war. Again, said with a completely straight face.

[Merging Cultures]

I made a post on Facebookyesterday about freedom of speech being eroded and a teacher replied with this to it...

Spot on. Even from our Facebook newsfeed...how many of us actually dare speak out strongly against such acts? Too few is the answer. Why? We bent over and allowed ourselves to get spanked a long time ago. That's why. I'm also tired of people pretending its a tiny minority. WAKE UP. I taught in a classroom yesterday where the kids condoned what had happened in France, even implying they supported it. And that classroom is in Leicester. Do we actually realise what state the world around us is in?

 

I respect that you can have your opinions, so don't take this the wrong way, I am just clarifying a few things.

 

From the above are you saying it is not a minority, but that all Muslims are to be feared?

 

A few of your posts have been quite anti-Islam, they have been subtle and positioned so you can deny it. For instance, you mentioned about the old timer who wishes he could go back 40 years so he wouldn't hear the word Muslim, possibly meaning that there were less of them, and now this one from a Teacher who says it isn't a minority. Two posts that 

 

It's fine if you have that opinion, you are welcome to it.

 

Personally, I believe there is a very active extremist minority who are making life very hard for a vast majority of moderate Muslims.

[purpleronnie]

Give up mate, I've asked this numerous times and never get a response or if I do it's a piss poor lie about how no one actually knew.

Muslims seem to be able to argue black is white with a completely straight face.

Muslims have spoken out, you seem to want evey single Muslim to do so, your clearly not listening to Muslims.  Why people are so concerned about muslims speaking out seems simply petty, did people ask british jews to speak out when Israeli bombs killed hundreds of children?  Even if muslims don't speak out it doesn't mean they agree with it.

 

Maybe you need the reasurrnace, but in reality it's meaningless.

 

Besides do you think it would make one bit of difference?  The jihadis at ISIS see French, British muslims as apostates, they don't care about muslims here or what they have to say.

 

It's so strange people what muslims to speak out when the majority of people fighting ISIS are actually muslims.

[bovril]

Reports that people have been taken hostage in a kosher grocery store in Paris.

[Merging Cultures]

Everything. Every single point you make to a Muslim to ask why the community fail to spot something that seems to be more widespread than chlamydia.

We've just had another on the BBC now even trying claim not only is nothing to do with Islam but also nothing to actually do with the Charlie Hebdo magazine. Apparently it's a response to the Iraq war. Again, said with a completely straight face.

 

You don't think these things have a compounding affect?

 

I think they see the issues, they don't sweep them under the carpet, it's just that the issues are difficult to deal with. They literally cannot stop people saying whatever they want to say. That is up to the law to deal with. That is the beauty of freedom of speech.

 

For Birmingham, they used the system to promote an Islamic agenda in schools, some could say the same is done with COE etc schools. However, obviously the things they promoted were against British values. But again, it is the system that needs strengthening, people are allowed to have their views. If I could make everyone think like me I'd be very happy, unfortunately, I am not able to manipulate the system alone.

 

If we want to live in a free society and enjoy our ability to be Conservative, Liberal, gay, straight, white, black, even a Coventry supporter, then we have to accept people are not going to think or behave the same way we do. Unfortunately, that is going to mean there will be extremists on both sides of the spectrum. The law decides how much we want to tolerate, and I am grateful for our intelligence services, military, police and courts who deal with these issues. The sad tragedy is that because people do not all think the same, and our security forces are fallible, we will continue to have security issues.

[Guest MattP]

I respect that you can have your opinions, so don't take this the wrong way, I am just clarifying a few things.

From the above are you saying it is not a minority, but that all Muslims are to be feared?

A few of your posts have been quite anti-Islam, they have been subtle and positioned so you can deny it. For instance, you mentioned about the old timer who wishes he could go back 40 years so he wouldn't hear the word Muslim, possibly meaning that there were less of them, and now this one from a Teacher who says it isn't a minority. Two posts that

It's fine if you have that opinion, you are welcome to it.

Personally, I believe there is a very active extremist minority who are making life very hard for a vast majority of moderate Muslims.

Actual extremism - of course a tiny minority

Justifying extremism - a larger minority

The real concern though is the way the Islamic community as a whole is failing to control these elements and as I've mentioned numerous times that shouldn't surprise anyone given how we've seen Birmingham schools turn out and the fact extremist preachers openly spout hate and incite murder towards the West on our own shores for years.

I'm only repeating what people are saying, many on here are friends with me on FB and can go on and see her comments under my reply for themselves.

I suppose the last point comes down to a definition of moderate, judging by everything seen over the last few days regarding this most Muslims whilst not condoning the attack do not any sympathy with the cartoonists. I struggle to see that as a moderate view.

[Guest MattP]

Muslims have spoken out, you seem to want evey single Muslim to do so, your clearly not listening to Muslims. Why people are so concerned about muslims speaking out seems simply petty, did people ask british jews to speak out when Israeli bombs killed hundreds of children? Even if muslims don't speak out it doesn't mean they agree with it.

Maybe you need the reasurrnace, but in reality it's meaningless.

Besides do you think it would make one bit of difference? The jihadis at ISIS see French, British muslims as apostates, they don't care about muslims here or what they have to say.

It's so strange people what muslims to speak out when the majority of people fighting ISIS are actually muslims.

Who are these Muslims completely speaking out for free speech Ron? Show me them.

Show me Muslims defending Charlie Ebdo and a right to free speech.

We have schools in our own city now Ron where the students see these attacks as justified.

The ISIS point is ridiculous, those Muslim nations have been at war for years with different factions.

[Guest MattP]

You don't think these things have a compounding affect?

I think they see the issues, they don't sweep them under the carpet, it's just that the issues are difficult to deal with. They literally cannot stop people saying whatever they want to say. That is up to the law to deal with. That is the beauty of freedom of speech.

For Birmingham, they used the system to promote an Islamic agenda in schools, some could say the same is done with COE etc schools. However, obviously the things they promoted were against British values. But again, it is the system that needs strengthening, people are allowed to have their views. If I could make everyone think like me I'd be very happy, unfortunately, I am not able to manipulate the system alone.

If we want to live in a free society and enjoy our ability to be Conservative, Liberal, gay, straight, white, black, even a Coventry supporter, then we have to accept people are not going to think or behave the same way we do. Unfortunately, that is going to mean there will be extremists on both sides of the spectrum. The law decides how much we want to tolerate, and I am grateful for our intelligence services, military, police and courts who deal with these issues. The sad tragedy is that because people do not all think the same, and our security forces are fallible, we will continue to have security issues.

Do you really think we live in a free society?

As I've said, no British newspaper would print the Danish cartoons, none would print the Charlie Hebdo cartoons despite it being the news story of the day.

The reason they won't print them is through fear and intimidating.

That's not a country living under total freedom.

[Guest MattP]

Unfortunately it does appear hostages and a shooting in a Kosher grocery in France.

[Merging Cultures]

Actual extremism - of course a tiny minority

Justifying extremism - a larger minority

The real concern though is the way the Islamic community as a whole is failing to control these elements and as I've mentioned numerous times that shouldn't surprise anyone given how we've seen Birmingham schools turn out and the fact extremist preachers openly spout hate and incite murder towards the West on our own shores for years.

I'm only repeating what people are saying, many on here are friends with me on FB and can go on and see her comments under my reply for themselves.

I suppose the last point comes down to a definition of moderate, judging by everything seen over the last few days regarding this most Muslims whilst not condoning the attack do not any sympathy with the cartoonists. I struggle to see that as a moderate view.

 

Don't we all justify extremism by accepting freedom of thought and speech? Acting on it is intolerable, which I think everyone agrees with.

 

When I hear people say that x happened because they did y, it doesn't sound like they are justifying it, merely explaining the extremists thinking behind it.

 

And in my opinion, there have been a number of compounding issues that have driven more and more people towards extremism. So, I can understand why people would act in an extremist way, I just wouldn't act on it myself. The active minority are usually the extremists, just as while I am interested in politics, I've never got significantly involved because I don't think my opinion is too different to those already in power.

[Merging Cultures]

Do you really think we live in a free society?

As I've said, no British newspaper would print the Danish cartoons, none would print the Charlie Hebdo cartoons despite it being the news story of the day.

The reason they won't print them is through fear and intimidating.

That's not a country living under total freedom.

 

No I do not, but it is not only because of fear and intimidation from extremist Muslims. There are gender, race and social class barriers to freedom. The other thread talks about the power of the media.

[Bettsj2]

Who are these Muslims completely speaking out for free speech Ron? Show me them.

Show me Muslims defending Charlie Ebdo and a right to free speech.

We have schools in our own city now Ron where the students see these attacks as justified.

The ISIS point is ridiculous, those Muslim nations have been at war for years with different factions.

If you watch Newsnight from last night, you'll see two female muslim editors defending Charlie Ebdo and a right to free speech.

And you are slightly sensationalising a post on Facebook. You have one teacher commenting on some students, in one classroom in Leicester. As most teachers will tell you, kids are not often the people to gauge opinion from as their concept of offensiveness is far different to ours. When I was at school and the teacher told us about the Dunblane massacre, 3 of the boys in the class laughed. When the teacher challenged them thet said, 'I hate the Scottish anyway'. It was a catholic school but that view does not represent catholics.

Whilst there have been videos of british muslims seemingly condoning acts like this, its still hugely dangerous to scale it up to a problem that 'we're at war'.

I simply do not like religion as it has shed more blood over the years than any other subject and the sooner people realise its all bullshit the better. But until then, losing all rational thought about a particular set of people is not helping anything or anyone.

Sadly a muslim friend of mine just told me about his sister being spat at from a car today on Green Lane Road. This isnt the society we want is it? Pointing our fingers saying 'its your fault'. Evil exists it always had and always will. Whatever form it takes or shield it hides behind, the one thing you cant let it do is divide.

Unfortunately reading the posts on here, twitter, facebook etc of 'Fvcking muslims. Dont like any of them', 'Dirty religion that condones pedos' etc, the division that groups like ISIS want to create in our society is working to a tea and too many people are blind enough to let it happen.

[Bettsj2]

Do you really think we live in a free society?

As I've said, no British newspaper would print the Danish cartoons, none would print the Charlie Hebdo cartoons despite it being the news story of the day.

The reason they won't print them is through fear and intimidating.

That's not a country living under total freedom.

Thats very true. They should all have printed it. Unity and strength in numbers was required.

[yorkie1999]

Holed up at the mo, if i were the police i'd have the bbq on outside with sausage and bacon on the go.

[Babylon]

Who are these Muslims completely speaking out for free speech Ron? Show me them.

Show me Muslims defending Charlie Ebdo and a right to free speech.

 

There were some on the bbc news last night. Perhaps you only see what you want to see.

 

We have schools in our own city now Ron where the students see these attacks as justified.

We also have school kids that don't like anyone but whites, who support the BNP and their ilk etc. You have your right wingers on both sides here, it's not just non white kids that hold rather warped views of the world.

 

 

[MC Prussian]

"Charlie Hebdo" are printing their newest edition in excess of a million copies.

 

With regards to the press reaction in the UK, MattP - what were the responses from the newspapers after the tube bombs in London?

And is there a publication in the UK similar to "Charlie Hebdo", Denmark's "Jyllandsposten" or Sweden's "Aftonbladet" cartoons?

I think the tradition of satire in print in the UK (which was pretty strong around the end of the 19th century) has pretty much died years or even decades ago, even before the issues with the Muslim community have started emerging.

So I don't see how you're so quick to slate the British press for being "too chicken", when there never was a big response from the national media anyway.

[Babylon]

I keep reading a lot about Muslims speaking out or Muslims reporting other Muslims. Do we all report white people we might know or come in to contact with who hold rather right wing / racist views, or perhaps rant about anyone that isn't white? Of course we don't, we just ignore them and just write them off as being a bit of an idiot.

 

If we thought that they were becoming a danger to the public then i'm sure we'd all pick up the phone. I'm sure the same could be said of muslims or any other faith. They all probably know people who hold those views but that don't think they are a danger, they don't expect them to pick up a rifle and start shooting people, just as we don't with those we come into contact with.

[Bettsj2]

"Charlie Hebdo" are printing their newest edition in excess of a million copies.

With regards to the press reaction in the UK, MattP - what were the responses from the newspapers after the tube bombs in London?

And is there a publication in the UK similar to "Charlie Hebdo", Denmark's "Jyllandsposten" or Sweden's "Aftonbladet" cartoons?

I think the tradition of satire in print in the UK (which was pretty strong around the end of the 19th century) has pretty much died years or even decades ago, even before the issues with the Muslim community have started emerging.

So I don't see how you're so quick to slate the British press for being "too chicken", when there never was a big response from the national media anyway.

Would Private Eye be considered our version?

[Bettsj2]

I keep reading a lot about Muslims speaking out or Muslims reporting other Muslims. Do we all report white people we might know or come in to contact with who hold rather right wing / racist views, or perhaps rant about anyone that isn't white? Of course we don't, we just ignore them and just write them off as being a bit of an idiot.

If we thought that they were becoming a danger to the public then i'm sure we'd all pick up the phone. I'm sure the same could be said of muslims or any other faith. They all probably know people who hold those views but that don't think they are a danger, they don't expect them to pick up a rifle and start shooting people, just as we don't with those we come into contact with.

This x 1000

[Bellend Sebastian]

I keep reading a lot about Muslims speaking out or Muslims reporting other Muslims. Do we all report white people we might know or come in to contact with who hold rather right wing / racist views, or perhaps rant about anyone that isn't white? Of course we don't, we just ignore them and just write them off as being a bit of an idiot.

 

If we thought that they were becoming a danger to the public then i'm sure we'd all pick up the phone. I'm sure the same could be said of muslims or any other faith. They all probably know people who hold those views but that don't think they are a danger, they don't expect them to pick up a rifle and start shooting people, just as we don't with those we come into contact with.

 

I bought a kitchen off a Muslim bloke.  I hope he doesn't kick off, otherwise I'll be wondering if I could have done more.

 

Muslim to do list:

 

Pray

Clean the house

Take mum shopping

Get car taxed

Pick up kids from school

Make the tea

Pray

Get the washing in

Prevent radicalisation in the community

 

I mean, everyone's busy but perhaps they should just learn to multi-task more effectively

[Guest MattP]

No I do not, but it is not only because of fear and intimidation from extremist Muslims. There are gender, race and social class barriers to freedom. The other thread talks about the power of the media

Not only no, but no way can anyone surely deny the reason that our papers wouldn't carry these pictures isn't out of fear and intimidation, it would be absurd not too.

 

There were some on the bbc news last night. Perhaps you only see what you want to see. If you watch Newsnight from last night, you'll see two female muslim editors defending Charlie Ebdo and a right to free speech.

 

We also have school kids that don't like anyone but whites, who support the BNP and their ilk etc. You have your right wingers on both sides here, it's not just non white kids that hold rather warped views of the world.

 

Of course there are a few, though it does make me chuckle how people are happy to hold up individual cases to prove a point of a moderate Muslim majority whilst brushing it off the other way around, I think it's fairly set in stone the vast majority of Muslims do not see freedom of speech extending to drawing pictures of the prophet Muhammed when over 70% believe people who do it should be prosecuted (link on second page)

 

I've never heard of classrooms supporting the BNP, if they are out there I would urge teachers to combat it.

 

Although let's not compare and contrast supporting a racist poltical party to condoning shooting people for drawing cartoons, in the current climate I think that could be the last thing we need.

 

"Charlie Hebdo" are printing their newest edition in excess of a million copies.

 

With regards to the press reaction in the UK, MattP - what were the responses from the newspapers after the tube bombs in London?

And is there a publication in the UK similar to "Charlie Hebdo", Denmark's "Jyllandsposten" or Sweden's "Aftonbladet" cartoons?

I think the tradition of satire in print in the UK (which was pretty strong around the end of the 19th century) has pretty much died years or even decades ago, even before the issues with the Muslim community have started emerging.

So I don't see how you're so quick to slate the British press for being "too chicken", when there never was a big response from the national media anyway.

 

I really don't understand what your point is here? The London bombings were long before any controversy over the press

 

Barely anyone back then would have known how offensive drawing Muhammed was, South Park even had an episode with him on around the time. (Ironically, something South Park, despite doing it pre Danish cartoons - now won't) - It's not just us.

 

I bought a kitchen off a Muslim bloke.  I hope he doesn't kick off, otherwise I'll be wondering if I could have done more.

 

Muslim to do list:

 

Pray

Clean the house

Take mum shopping

Get car taxed

Pick up kids from school

Make the tea

Pray

Get the washing in

Prevent radicalisation in the community

 

I mean, everyone's busy but perhaps they should just learn to multi-task more effectively

 

And it's this sort of ridiculous post that shows the attitudes that mean we'll probably actually never get anywhere in trying to work with the Muslim Community to try and work together in an attempt to defeat this.

 

 

Anyway, I've spent far too much time in this thread and it's time for me to log off for the weekend

 

Let's the hope the two shooters are caught, let's hope the hostage in with them is released unharmed and also the hostages now that have been taken in Paris are released unharmed, then let's hope Paris can return to some sort of normality over the weekend, the last thing we need is an another Israel on our doorstep.

 

edit: As I'm writing is appears another incident with hostages is happening in Eastern Paris. You have to think this is a major operation now.

 

Up the City.

[Babylon]

Of course there are a few, though it does make me chuckle how people are happy to hold up individual cases to prove a point of a moderate Muslim majority

 

You asked for an example, you asked us to show you them... what do you want people to do, go and do a door to door questioning of Muslims so we can provide you with an example?

[Larry_LCFC]

Report of 3rd incident involving a gunman close to the Eiffel Tower. This is awful.

Edit - Appears to be a false alarm thank God. Police are understandably twitchy.

[Babylon]

Brilliant... I'm booked to go to Paris in a couple of weeks.

[yorkie1999]

Report of 3rd incident involving a gunman close to the Eiffel Tower. This is awful.

Trocadero, but what's spooky is Charlie's nightclub in Bulkington used to be called Trocadero!!