Paris Shooting

[Guest MattP]

Yes and there were plenty of Muslims opposing his views, condemning his views, and demonstrating against him, the government just needs to get him out of the country, same with the hall green school issues.

If you think that I'm gonna go out of my way to go to every March and become some kind of vigilante then you're having a laugh mate! I'll condemn these idiots all day long, but I ain't spending half of my life trying to appease other people by becoming an 'extremist against the extremist'

 

Not asking people to become vilgilantes, just tell us when a school full of people are being taught extremist views if they find out. That's all mate.

[Babylon]

P.S. regarding this 'minority' hullabaloo, here's an interesting watch for your lunch breaks

 

Ben Shapiro - I'm not sure I need to know any more than that.

[hejammy]

Not asking people to become vilgilantes, just tell us when a school full of people are being taught extremist views if they find out. That's all mate.

Alright I'll tell you what, next time I see a school who I know is chanting these things, I'll be on the blower....

Oh crap just realised if I hang around schools waiting to hear these chants I might be accused of being a Muslim paedo... Damn can't win can I!

Seriously though do you really believe that a lot of normal Muslims know about these things?

[1993fox]

Ben Shapiro - I'm not sure I need to know any more than that.

 

You have a teddy bear set for your profile - sia

[Babylon]

You have a teddy bear set for your profile - sia

Yes for a reason... it used to be hannibal lecter but people complained it made me look aggressive, so I changed it to the softest thing I could find. It was either that or a kitten.

[Guest MattP]

Anyone watching this guy on Sky News now from the Muslim Public Affairs Committee of Britain, another one of the 'what happened was wrong but these cartoonists were racist' and these things can happen, you wouldn't draw black people as apes and put it in the paper?

 

Sky News should be ashamed. I'll post a video of this up later.

 

He even called Charlie Hebdo as racist, does he even realise the magazine is actually a anti-racist far left magazine?

[1993fox]

Yes for a reason... it used to be hannibal lecter but people complained it made me look aggressive, so I changed it to the softest thing I could find. It was either that or a kitten.

 

ok cool

[purpleronnie]

I thought this was an interesting piece.

  Sharpening Contradictions: Why al-Qaeda attacked Satirists in Paris

By Juan Cole|Jan. 7, 2015|

 

 

The horrific murder of the editor, cartoonists and other staff of the irreverent satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo, along with two policemen, by terrorists in Paris was in my view a strategic strike, aiming at polarizing the French and European public.

The problem for a terrorist group like al-Qaeda is that its recruitment pool is Muslims, but most Muslims are not interested in terrorism. Most Muslims are not even interested in politics, much less political Islam. France is a country of 66 million, of which about 5 million is of Muslim heritage. But in polling, only a third, less than 2 million, say that they are interested in religion. French Muslims may be the most secular Muslim-heritage population in the world (ex-Soviet ethnic Muslims often also have low rates of belief and observance). Many Muslim immigrants in the post-war period to France came as laborers and were not literate people, and their grandchildren are rather distant from Middle Eastern fundamentalism, pursuing urban cosmopolitan culture such as rap and rai. In Paris, where Muslims tend to be better educated and more religious, the vast majority reject violence and say they are loyal to France.

Al-Qaeda wants to mentally colonize French Muslims, but faces a wall of disinterest. But if it can get non-Muslim French to be beastly to ethnic Muslims on the grounds that they are Muslims, it can start creating a common political identity around grievance against discrimination.

This tactic is similar to the one used by Stalinists in the early 20th century. Decades ago I read an account by the philosopher Karl Popper of how he flirted with Marxism for about 6 months in 1919 when he was auditing classes at the University of Vienna. He left the group in disgust when he discovered that they were attempting to use false flag operations to provoke militant confrontations. In one of them police killed 8 socialist youth at Hörlgasse on 15 June 1919. For the unscrupulous among Bolsheviks–who would later be Stalinists– the fact that most students and workers don’t want to overthrow the business class is inconvenient, and so it seemed desirable to some of them to “sharpen the contradictions” between labor and capital.

The operatives who carried out this attack exhibit signs of professional training. They spoke unaccented French, and so certainly know that they are playing into the hands of Marine LePen and the Islamophobic French Right wing. They may have been French, but they appear to have been battle hardened. This horrific murder was not a pious protest against the defamation of a religious icon. It was an attempt to provoke European society into pogroms against French Muslims, at which point al-Qaeda recruitment would suddenly exhibit some successes instead of faltering in the face of lively Beur youth culture (French Arabs playfully call themselves by this anagram). Ironically, there are reports that one of the two policemen they killed was a Muslim.

Al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia, then led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, deployed this sort of polarization strategy successfully in Iraq, constantly attacking Shiites and their holy symbols, and provoking the ethnic cleansing of a million Sunnis from Baghdad. The polarization proceeded, with the help of various incarnations of Daesh (Arabic for ISIL or ISIS, which descends from al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia). And in the end, the brutal and genocidal strategy worked, such that Daesh was able to encompass all of Sunni Arab Iraq, which had suffered so many Shiite reprisals that they sought the umbrella of the very group that had deliberately and systematically provoked the Shiites.

“Sharpening the contradictions” is the strategy of sociopaths and totalitarians, aimed at unmooring people from their ordinary insouciance and preying on them, mobilizing their energies and wealth for the perverted purposes of a self-styled great leader.

The only effective response to this manipulative strategy (as Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani tried to tell the Iraqi Shiites a decade ago) is to resist the impulse to blame an entire group for the actions of a few and to refuse to carry out identity-politics reprisals.

For those who require unrelated people to take responsibility for those who claim to be their co-religionists (not a demand ever made of Christians), the al-Azhar Seminary, seat of Sunni Muslim learning and fatwas, condemned the attack, as did the Arab League that comprises 22 Muslim-majority states.

We have a model for response to terrorist provocation and attempts at sharpening the contradictions. It is Norway after Anders Behring Breivik committed mass murder of Norwegian leftists for being soft on Islam. The Norwegian government launched no war on terror. They tried Breivik in court as a common criminal. They remained committed to their admirable modern Norwegian values.

Most of France will also remain committed to French values of the Rights of Man, which they invented. But an insular and hateful minority will take advantage of this deliberately polarizing atrocity to push their own agenda. Europe’s future depends on whether the Marine LePens are allowed to become mainstream. Extremism thrives on other people’s extremism, and is inexorably defeated by tolerance.

Let me conclude by offering my profound condolences to the families, friends and fans of our murdered colleagues at Charlie Hebdo, including Stephane Charbonnier, Bernard Maris, and cartoonists Georges Wolinski Jean Cabut, aka Cabu, and Berbard Verlhac (Tignous)– and all the others. As Charbonnier, known as Charb, said, “I prefer to die standing than to live on my knees.”.

[ramboacdc]

@aboujahjahtweets: I am not Charlie, I am Ahmed the dead cop. Charlie ridiculed my faith and culture and I died defending his right to do so. #JeSuisAhmed

[Guest MattP]

Couldn't disagree with that article more Ronnie, where is it from?

 

If the intent was to drive a genuine wedge and create hate and division a more widespread political attack on 'the innocent' would surely be the way to go about it?

 

This was a co-ordinated revenge attack on 9 particular people, they could have massacred everyone in that office but they didn't, they called their names and each one who had 'mocked' the prophet in their mind was then executed. It was a clear and accurate attack planned to punish and to also threaten what will happen to people in the future if they dare engage in such actions.

 

As for the future depending on whether people like Marine Le Pen become mainstream and extremism being defeated by tolerance? I don't know where to start with that. For a start off some of the sickos on the extreme right were celebrating the killings - as already said - the magazine is an anti-racist far left one that has done more to mock and fight the old Front National (no one can seriously still call Marine La Pen's version far right) than they did Islam.

 

You won't defeat groups like ISIS with tolerance, we didn't defeat the Nazi's with tolerance and as much as the Guardianistas would like us to believe won't defeat Jihadism with tolerance either.

[MikeyT]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/01/07/islam-allah-muslims-shariah-anjem-choudary-editorials-debates/21417461/

 

Contrary to popular misconception, Islam does not mean peace but rather means submission to the commands of Allah alone. Therefore, Muslims do not believe in the concept of freedom of expression, as their speech and actions are determined by divine revelation and not based on people's desires.

Although Muslims may not agree about the idea of freedom of expression, even non-Muslims who espouse it say it comes with responsibilities. In an increasingly unstable and insecure world, the potential consequences of insulting the Messenger Muhammad are known to Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

OUR VIEW: Slaughter of French satirists can't silence free expression

Muslims consider the honor of the Prophet Muhammad to be dearer to them than that of their parents or even themselves. To defend it is considered to be an obligation upon them. The strict punishment if found guilty of this crime under sharia (Islamic law) is capital punishment implementable by an Islamic State. This is because the Messenger Muhammad said, "Whoever insults a Prophet kill him."

However, because the honor of the Prophet is something which all Muslims want to defend, many will take the law into their own hands, as we often see.

Within liberal democracies, freedom of expression has curtailments, such as laws against incitement and hatred.

The truth is that Western governments are content to sacrifice liberties and freedoms when being complicit to torture and rendition — or when restricting the freedom of movement of Muslims, under the guise of protecting national security.

So why in this case did the French government allow the magazine Charlie Hebdo to continue to provoke Muslims, thereby placing the sanctity of its citizens at risk?

It is time that the sanctity of a Prophet revered by up to one-quarter of the world's population was protected.

Anjem Choudary is a radical Muslim cleric in London and a lecturer in sharia.

[Guest MattP]

Good old Anjem, I wondered when he would come out and have his say.

 

He's was on Radio 4 (why the BBC still give him a platform I don't really know) a few months ago saying how Muslims have dreamt of taking over Europe since the 7th Century and what Allah asked of them in the Quran will soon be coming a reality after so many attempts over 1,300 years.

 

Ironically it might be done without ever needing a gun this time.

[The Doctor]

Muslims consider the honor of the Prophet Muhammad to be dearer to them than that of their parents or even themselves. To defend it is considered to be an obligation upon them. The strict punishment if found guilty of this crime under sharia (Islamic law) is capital punishment implementable by an Islamic State. This is because the Messenger Muhammad said, "Whoever insults a Prophet kill him."

 

 

 

If they followed that properly, then they should be killing people for insulting Jesus, and actually more ironically, killing themselves for insulting Jews as a whole, when a number of their prophets were jews. 

 

Still, it's quite funny that they restrict people from drawing mo in part to prevent idol worship, yet that's pretty much what it's turned into.

[leicsmac]

Couldn't disagree with that article more Ronnie, where is it from?

 

If the intent was to drive a genuine wedge and create hate and division a more widespread political attack on 'the innocent' would surely be the way to go about it?

 

This was a co-ordinated revenge attack on 9 particular people, they could have massacred everyone in that office but they didn't, they called their names and each one who had 'mocked' the prophet in their mind was then executed. It was a clear and accurate attack planned to punish and to also threaten what will happen to people in the future if they dare engage in such actions.

 

As for the future depending on whether people like Marine Le Pen become mainstream and extremism being defeated by tolerance? I don't know where to start with that. For a start off some of the sickos on the extreme right were celebrating the killings - as already said - the magazine is an anti-racist far left one that has done more to mock and fight the old Front National (no one can seriously still call Marine La Pen's version far right) than they did Islam.

 

You won't defeat groups like ISIS with tolerance, we didn't defeat the Nazi's with tolerance and as much as the Guardianistas would like us to believe won't defeat Jihadism with tolerance either.

 

They mounted an attack on freedom of speech to try to make people afraid. This point has been made over and over. I can't see how that's not divisive.

 

The comparison with the Nazis that people like to draw on is so trite - the ideology is the same but Nazism had a hugely powerful European nation state with thousands of tanks and aircraft and millions of people to back it up and to impress it upon other places. What does this twisted ideology have? A couple of towns they control living in fear and a few people spouting off on the Internet? There are so many much more likely ways you can die in malicious fashion in Europe or the US than at their hands.

 

I keep repeating myself here but, the only real widespread weapon these fanatics have is fear. That's the way they will take over, if they can. By making people afraid, not trusting each other and not trusting themselves to be able to speak their piece. By making their enemies afraid and those they support bold enough to join them.

 

It's bullshit smoke and mirrors.

 

Targetted response was the answer. And guess what, it still is.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/01/07/islam-allah-muslims-shariah-anjem-choudary-editorials-debates/21417461/

 

Contrary to popular misconception, Islam does not mean peace but rather means submission to the commands of Allah alone. Therefore, Muslims do not believe in the concept of freedom of expression, as their speech and actions are determined by divine revelation and not based on people's desires.

Although Muslims may not agree about the idea of freedom of expression, even non-Muslims who espouse it say it comes with responsibilities. In an increasingly unstable and insecure world, the potential consequences of insulting the Messenger Muhammad are known to Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

OUR VIEW: Slaughter of French satirists can't silence free expression

Muslims consider the honor of the Prophet Muhammad to be dearer to them than that of their parents or even themselves. To defend it is considered to be an obligation upon them. The strict punishment if found guilty of this crime under sharia (Islamic law) is capital punishment implementable by an Islamic State. This is because the Messenger Muhammad said, "Whoever insults a Prophet kill him."

However, because the honor of the Prophet is something which all Muslims want to defend, many will take the law into their own hands, as we often see.

Within liberal democracies, freedom of expression has curtailments, such as laws against incitement and hatred.

The truth is that Western governments are content to sacrifice liberties and freedoms when being complicit to torture and rendition — or when restricting the freedom of movement of Muslims, under the guise of protecting national security.

So why in this case did the French government allow the magazine Charlie Hebdo to continue to provoke Muslims, thereby placing the sanctity of its citizens at risk?

It is time that the sanctity of a Prophet revered by up to one-quarter of the world's population was protected.

Anjem Choudary is a radical Muslim cleric in London and a lecturer in sharia.

 

Good grief. What a cvnt.

[ramboacdc]

If they followed that properly, then they should be killing people for insulting Jesus, and actually more ironically, killing themselves for insulting Jews as a whole, when a number of their prophets were jews. 

 

Still, it's quite funny that they restrict people from drawing mo in part to prevent idol worship, yet that's pretty much what it's turned into.

i sort of understand the jesus part. islam believes jesus was a prophet just not the son of god. but the suicide cuz of the jew comment im drawing a blank on.  A lot were killed as jews but may not have been jews. 

[Guest MattP]

Here's the debate from Sky News - earlier - just have a watch of the guy in the studio. Incredibly he's the head of a very respected public Islamic body as well.

 

I really hope that despite being the head of the group he doesn't represent their views.

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1011499972197933

[Guest MattP]

What does this twisted ideology have? A couple of towns they control living in fear and a few people spouting off on the Internet? There are so many much more likely ways you can die in malicious fashion in Europe or the US than at their hands.

 

I keep repeating myself here but, the only real widespread weapon these fanatics have is fear. That's the way they will take over, if they can. By making people afraid, not trusting each other and not trusting themselves to be able to speak their piece. By making their enemies afraid and those they support bold enough to join them.

 

Targetted response was the answer. And guess what, it still is.

 

They have two countries on their knees fighting them, they control an area bigger than France, they have a budget that's bigger now that most nations on the planet, they live on a continent where barely any of their neighbours are preapred to take any action action them, they have billions of funds coming from sympathisers all over that continent and even Royal families, add to that despite being miles away they have splinter cells prepared to cause chaos all over the World in every major country and thousands of sympathisers and potential recruits in each of them as well. Not to mention plenty more to come given the breeding rates.

 

If fear is the only weapon they have, they've got enough to cause a hell of a lot of it and we are all in for a long fight. I hope you are right, I hope we will look away and this will all just vanish.

 

How's Korea?

[The Doctor]

i sort of understand the jesus part. islam believes jesus was a prophet just not the son of god. but the suicide cuz of the jew comment im drawing a blank on.  A lot were killed as jews but may not have been jews. 

 

They regularly insult Jews (saying that they are cheats, traitors, liars, murders...), even going as far as to say that the Jews need wiping from the face of the world before they can go to heaven (No-one goes anywhere until the day of judgement, and several Sahih (i.e. most reliable) hadiths say that the day of judgement won't come " until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him." (Muslim 41:6985).  

 

As it applies to all Jews, they insult all Jews. Including the likes of Jesus, Moses, Joseph, Job, Noah - all of whom are prophets in Islam. By calling Jews as a whole murders and liars who need to be eradicated, they insult their own prophets in an act of beautiful irony.

[Darkon84]

Here's the debate from Sky News - earlier - just have a watch of the guy in the studio. Incredibly he's the head of a very respected public Islamic body as well.

 

I really hope that despite being the head of the group he doesn't represent their views.

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1011499972197933

 

 

Wow, just wow! Comparing modern day Muslims to the Jews during the Nazi regime etc. What planet is this guy living on and how the hell did he even get to be in the Sky studios? They need to have a word with themselves here, allowing him a platform to spout sh1te like that.

 

 

EDIT: Douglas Murray

[MooseBreath]

Maybe the reason labour and the left allowed pedophiles the run of Rotherham is not because they were scared of being called racist, but because they thought if they just accepted it and did nothing about it then the pedophiles would eventually just stop raping kids by their own accord. Certainly seems illogical enough to make sense in the minds of the left.

[leicsmac]

They have two countries on their knees fighting them, they control an area bigger than France, they have a budget that's bigger now that most nations on the planet, they live on a continent where barely any of their neighbours are preapred to take any action action them, they have billions of funds coming from sympathisers all over that continent and even Royal families, add to that despite being miles away they have splinter cells prepared to cause chaos all over the World in every major country and thousands of sympathisers and potential recruits in each of them as well. Not to mention plenty more to come given the breeding rates.

 

If fear is the only weapon they have, they've got enough to cause a hell of a lot of it and we are all in for a long fight. I hope you are right, I hope we will look away and this will all just vanish.

 

How's Korea?

 

Al Qaeda had its bollocks cut off pretty soon after it really pissed the West off, the same would happen to ISIS. They don't have the money or manpower, let alone the hardware to combat Israels army, let alone any of the bigger Western nations if it really came to it. The only reason they still control the areas they do is because the nations drumming up action against them are worried about the political fallout of getting into another ME conflict.

 

I'm not in any way suggesting that we look away - I've said that often enough too. I'm suggesting a targetted response based on what they're doing, rather than a blanket condemnation that could very well give them the war they wanted in the first place.

 

Too many people want this to escalate, or think it's inevitable that it will which is basically the same thing. Goodness only knows why.

 

Korea is reasonable enough - people just getting on with their lives in spite of and not giving a shite about a psychopathic rabble that are all talk and occasional trousers very close. And this bunch of ideological nutjobs have nukes.  

[yorkie1999]

Alright I'll tell you what, next time I see a school who I know is chanting these things, I'll be on the blower....

Oh crap just realised if I hang around schools waiting to hear these chants I might be accused of being a Muslim paedo... Damn can't win can I!

Seriously though do you really believe that a lot of normal Muslims know about these things?

I'll tell you where chanting is regularly heard,  on the A5 near nuneaton, megaphones, call to arms, the lot.

[Dr The Singh]

I was talking about that particular guy and not all actually. Get your facts correct before you accuse

Uhum!!!  WTF!!

 

Your wrote

Yes being Sikh is very neutral when talking about Muslims.......Moron

 

I am 'being a SIkh', your statement represents all Sikhs, stop trying to wriggle yourself out of it.  I know exactly what you meant, you should be ashamed of yourself!!!

[hejammy]

Uhum!!! WTF!!

Your wrote

Yes being Sikh is very neutral when talking about Muslims.......Moron

I am 'being a SIkh', your statement represents all Sikhs, stop trying to wriggle yourself out of it. I know exactly what you meant, you should be ashamed of yourself!!!

Yes Dr bandwagon I'm very ashamed of myself...

Shall we go through all of his previous comments on this forum and see if he is neutral?

[Babylon]

No I've seen any, can you show me some?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2901874/Revenge-attacks-retaliation-begin-Mosques-come-fire-guns-grenades-France-kebab-shop-near-Muslim-temple-blown-up.html

 

I didn't want to post the mail article for no doubt it will be ridiculed, but the other links were struggling to load. They are on several news sites.