Buce Posted 3 February 2015 Posted 3 February 2015 I'd say the ultimate cause of the problems in Iraq was the invasion of Kuwait but whatever started it we didn't make these monsters kill, rape and oppress innocent people. That's their own choice and we shouldn't accept any of the blame for it. I agree completely, Webbo, but we - and others - are largely responsible for creating the conditions that have allowed these 'monsters' to thrive. We removed Saddam, we helped stoke the fires in Syria - that's not opinion, that's fact.
Webbo Posted 3 February 2015 Posted 3 February 2015 I agree completely, Webbo, but we - and others - are largely responsible for creating the conditions that have allowed these 'monsters' to thrive. We removed Saddam, we helped stoke the fires in Syria - that's not opinion, that's fact. There's some truth in that.
Guest Bilo Posted 3 February 2015 Posted 3 February 2015 They are worthless, subhuman savages. Unfortunately, they are worthless, subhuman savages whom we helped to create. Western foreign policy towards Syria and Iraq, even if you believe it to be well intentioned, created a power vacuum that is being filled by all sorts of unsavoury sorts. The faults of men like Saddam and Assad were and are numerous, but at least they kept filth like this under some form of control. It's fair to say that they didn't exactly run functioning democracies, but neither did they run the kind of place where pilots were burned alive, homosexuals were thrown from buildings, people with Down's Syndrome were used as suicide bombers, Christian women were used as sex slaves and aid workers murdered. Blair and Bush made the gravest of errors in attacking Iraq, Obama and Cameron were little better with their interference in Syria and its the innocent Iraqis and Syrians who must pay the price of this. What's the answer? The answer is to wipe out ISIS utterly without mercy and for the West to stop seeing itself as the world's policeman, because this is is a situation where the detritus of humanity can rise from the gutter.
Vlad the Fox Posted 3 February 2015 Posted 3 February 2015 This evil isn't going to stop and will spread until it is stopped, it will only get worse. There is only going to be one outcome to this in my opinion and it's going to be bloody. These states know the west have a fear of war but sometimes it is the only option, they need to be stopped before they get any stronger whether that involves the west or surrounding nations the time to sit and watch is coming to an end.
bovril Posted 3 February 2015 Posted 3 February 2015 I was in Syria in 2010, in Aleppo. It was a nice city if a little chaotic, about 40/60 Christian and Muslim. Great food, decent standard of living for the region and it seemed very secular. I imagine much of Iraq was the same before 1990. It's tragic what's happened in that region and, without wishing to sound too cliched, the great powers are mostly to blame. As Gorbachov (I think) once said, oil is the 'devil's sperm'.
Guest Bilo Posted 3 February 2015 Posted 3 February 2015 I was in Syria in 2010, in Aleppo. It was a nice city if a little chaotic, about 40/60 Christian and Muslim. Great food, decent standard of living for the region and it seemed very secular. I imagine much of Iraq was the same before 1990. It's tragic what's happened in that region and, without wishing to sound too cliched, the great powers are mostly to blame. As Gorbachov (I think) once said, oil is the 'devil's sperm'. Syria and Iraq were among the most secular countries in the Middle East. I daresay that anybody trying to implement an Islamic revolution in Syria prior to the civil war would probably have ended up full of bullet holes. Can anybody honestly say that that is the wrong way to deal with people like this? I'm really not sure they understand any other language.
Webbo Posted 3 February 2015 Posted 3 February 2015 These countries may have been secular but they were also brutal police states. The uprising in Syria might have turned islamist but no everybody involved started that way.
Strokes Posted 3 February 2015 Posted 3 February 2015 I agree completely, Webbo, but we - and others - are largely responsible for creating the conditions that have allowed these 'monsters' to thrive. We removed Saddam, we helped stoke the fires in Syria - that's not opinion, that's fact.Totally agree but where do we go from here, without making more errors.
Guest Bilo Posted 3 February 2015 Posted 3 February 2015 These countries may have been secular but they were also brutal police states. The uprising in Syria might have turned islamist but no everybody involved started that way. They were brutal police states, but time has told us that these methods were more effective in Iraq and Syria than democracy. It's an uncomfortable truth, but a truth it remains.
Guest MattP Posted 3 February 2015 Posted 3 February 2015 First off whilst we've made mistakes it shouldn't be used as any excuse or give any legitimacy to the acts being committed. Al Nusra also has existed in some form since the 80's so whilst we obviously take a lot of blame for Iraq I don't see anything we could have done differently in Syria from a historic point of view. I was quite open on here about how I would happily back Assad and the same people calling me a fascist back then now seem to realise we do need to crush these 'rebels'. For what it's worth I think we should happily be the world's policeman in situations like this, when thousands of innocents are being massacred I have no problem committing ourselves to help them. The Islamic World simply won't deal with these people and will continue to turn a blind eye to these horrific acts. That's not changed now for 1,400 years and it won't anytime soon. The Arab league is hopeless and apart from the government of Syria and a token effort from the UAE no pressure seems to be being exerted. We either crush these people by any means necessary or we live with the consequences of not doing so. Either decision is going to cause a lot of misery and suffering for a lot of people but I know which one I'd be on the side of.
Strokes Posted 3 February 2015 Posted 3 February 2015 Some tough decisions lie ahead on this, I think you are trying to simplify somewhat Matt. We won't be out of Iraq in our lifetimes at this rate.
ADK Posted 3 February 2015 Posted 3 February 2015 I'm not sure if we shouldn't just leave them to it.
Guest MattP Posted 3 February 2015 Posted 3 February 2015 I'm not sure if we shouldn't just leave them to it. I can get my head around this view but when I think of the women being taken into slavery and you see pictures of the children being beheaded I just can't bring myself to think we live in a World where we allow this to continue. The Arab nations should be the ones to do it, of course, but if they have no intention of doing it the rest of the World has too.
Maybes Posted 3 February 2015 Posted 3 February 2015 How one human can do that to another is fvcking disgusting.
bovril Posted 3 February 2015 Posted 3 February 2015 How one human can do that to another is fvcking disgusting. Yup. You can talk about religion and politics all you want but it still needs someone to actually do the deed. Truly ****ed up.
ADK Posted 3 February 2015 Posted 3 February 2015 I can get my head around this view but when I think of the women being taken into slavery and you see pictures of the children being beheaded I just can't bring myself to think we live in a World where we allow this to continue. The Arab nations should be the ones to do it, of course, but if they have no intention of doing it the rest of the World has too. I agree with that. I'd back anything that seemed like it would genuinely help.
Buzzell Posted 3 February 2015 Posted 3 February 2015 Surely it's only a matter of time now before the world rallies together to go up against ISIS.
Fox92 Posted 3 February 2015 Posted 3 February 2015 Surely it's only a matter of time now before the world rallies together to go up against ISIS. Putin has got to have something up his sleeve...
lgfualol Posted 4 February 2015 Posted 4 February 2015 Surely it's only a matter of time now before the world rallies together to go up against ISIS. You know you're a ****ed up group when Al-Queda don't like you. It can't be long now. They're ****ing evil *****. Never have I wanted a group of people to be wiped off the face of the earth than IS. They're just a gang, an absolutely vile one. I doubt many of them even know their religion other than what the ****s in charge tell them, and even if they did, they wouldn't care because it would stop them from murdering and raping.
leicsmac Posted 4 February 2015 Posted 4 February 2015 Not much more need be said than has been said already. Ideological powermongering nutjobs who get off on power and death. There needs to be a multilateral solution to wipe them out, and soon. But it has to be mulitlateral.
MikeyT Posted 4 February 2015 Posted 4 February 2015 http://news.sky.com/story/1420872/iraqi-militant-executed-after-is-murders-pilot Jordan has executed two prisoners after Islamic State murdered one of their pilots, a government spokesman has said. One of those executed was Iraqi would-be suicide bomber Sajida al Rishawi, who was on death row for her role in a hotel attack that killed 60 people. The other was Ziad al Karbouli, who had been an aide to the late former leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq, Abu Musab al Zarqawi, and who was sentenced to death in 2008 for plotting terror attacks on Jordanians in Iraq. Jordan had promised a swift and lethal response after IS released a video showing captured pilot Mu'ath Al Kassasbeh being burned alive in a cage. IS had demanded the release of Rishawi in exchange for Mr Al Kassasbeh and Japanese journalist Kenji Goto, who the militant group killed in a video posted online three days ago. Jordan had agreed to the swap, but called off the deal after saying it had received no proof that the pilot was still alive. Some Arab commentators had suggested jihadist Al Karbouli could also have formed part of a prisoner swap. The two jihadists were hanged in Swaqa prison, a large facility 70km (45 miles) south of the capital, Amman, just before dawn, a security source told Reuters. "They were both calm and showed no emotions and just prayed," the source added. The killing of the pilot outraged Jordanians and drew worldwide condemnation, including from President Barack Obama and the UN Security Council. Mr Al Kassasbeh was captured by the militants in December when his F-16 crashed near Raqqa, Syria, the de facto capital of the Islamic State group's self-styled caliphate. The 26-year-old's murder appeared to be aimed at pressuring the government of Jordan - a close US ally - to leave the coalition that has carried out months of airstrikes on IS positions in Syria and Iraq. But observers say the extremists' brutality against a fellow Muslim could backfire and galvanise other Sunni Muslims in the region against them. King Abdullah II, Jordan's leader, has portrayed the campaign against the extremists as a battle over values. In a speech on Jordanian state television, he urged his countrymen to unite. "It's the duty of all of us to stand united and show the real values of Jordanians in the face of these hardships," the monarch said from Washington. In a statement before a meeting King Abdullah, US President Barack Obama vowed the pilot's death would "redouble the vigilance and determination on the part of our global coalition to make sure they are degraded and ultimately defeated".
Guest MattP Posted 4 February 2015 Posted 4 February 2015 Well at least finally a country has shown ISIS they'll do something in response to their barbaric actions.
Filbert Walker Posted 4 February 2015 Posted 4 February 2015 saddam hussein would have sorted these bast#rds out... some times in this wonderful world we do need dictators to keep the lid on all this stuff.... Did you know that there are 7000 NATO troops still in the Balkans keeping a lid on that lot !!!
Unabomber Posted 4 February 2015 Posted 4 February 2015 Why oh why did I watch the video. RIP poor man.
MikeyT Posted 4 February 2015 Posted 4 February 2015 Why oh why did I watch the video. RIP poor man. Yes, why? I saw a still image and that was enough.
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