Rincewind Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 One party suggested - I forget who - that trainees could work alongside older due to retire workers to gain experience and eventually replace them in the work place. Whether it could work I don't know but I see nothing wrong if some companies want to try it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 One party suggested - I forget who - that trainees could work alongside older due to retire workers to gain experience and eventually replace them in the work place. Whether it could work I don't know but I see nothing wrong if some companies want to try it out. Like anything, if it's a good idea firms will implement it. They don't need govt to tell them what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 One party suggested - I forget who - that trainees could work alongside older due to retire workers to gain experience and eventually replace them in the work place. Whether it could work I don't know but I see nothing wrong if some companies want to try it out. It's a great "idea". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 Like anything, if it's a good idea firms will implement it. They don't need govt to tell them what to do. That's bollox. Firms will implement it if it is a good idea for them and isn't too much hassle and then only some firms will implement it. This idea could be a good idea for young people and firms won't necessarily implement it.And many firms will want to see a monetary gain from the govt. for doing it. There are many types of gain that don't involve money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 That's bollox. Firms will implement it if it is a good idea for them and isn't too much hassle and then only some firms will implement it. This idea could be a good idea for young people and firms won't necessarily implement it.And many firms will want to see a monetary gain from the govt. for doing it. There are many types of gain that don't involve money. Well obviously if it's a good idea for them, what did you think I meant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 Well obviously if it's a good idea for them, what did you think I meant? Well firstly this thread is about education so we could be looking at what is good for the learner or society or... But my main point was that most firms don't implement new systems for many reasons even though they are "good" for them. They don't like change, they don't like the unknown, they don't like taking a chance, they are happy with what they have, they want to choose who they want to dowhat they want etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 Any firm that wants to make money will want the best staff they can get, if that means improving their staff then that's good for everyone. It's nothing new anyway. when you do an apprenticeship you're placed with an experienced bloke to show you the ropes. It's been like that forever. If anything it's the older tradesmen that don't like it because if you're on price work the apprentices wages come out of your price. If the young lad is lazy/thick/useless it can cost you money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilo Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 Not everyone without a degree is in poverty. No, of course not. It's true that not many graduates are in poverty though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 Any firm that wants to make money will want the best staff they can get, if that means improving their staff then that's good for everyone. It's nothing new anyway. when you do an apprenticeship you're placed with an experienced bloke to show you the ropes. It's been like that forever. If anything it's the older tradesmen that don't like it because if you're on price work the apprentices wages come out of your price. If the young lad is lazy/thick/useless it can cost you money. If that were true, every company would continually train staff (or retrain). Ideologically it's true, in practice it's far from true. I'm probably wrong but you're in the home decoration trade aren't you? Does your company train employees on new products , new techniques, new ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 All forms of further education should be accessible to all, whether it is vocational or academic, and schools should spend more time trying to help kids identify what they want to do, what they would be good at what would be a good career path for them. How do people complaining about the student debt feel about a further education tax? Anyone who continues to university or does a vocational degree or anything else past 18 has to pay an extra tax, for example 1% for every year of study? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom27111 Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 One key point, means tested grants still exist and are tied in when you apply through Student Finance. Trust me, I'm currently at university. You apply through Student Finance for your tuition fees and standard student loans, which everyone is entitled to. In addition to this, there is a means tested grant which does not have to be paid back, I'm eligible for over £3,000 a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 If that were true, every company would continually train staff (or retrain). Ideologically it's true, in practice it's far from true. I'm probably wrong but you're in the home decoration trade aren't you? Does your company train employees on new products , new techniques, new ideas? Just a sole trader, doesn't really apply. If anything new comes out it doesn't take long to work it out if you know your job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 Just a sole trader, doesn't really apply. If anything new comes out it doesn't take long to work it out if you know your job. Fair enough. If you had some kid helping you would you be willing to send him off for regular training (knowing he'd be better for a while and then off), would you train him yourself (may stay longer but will still be off) or work him till he leaves without training? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 Fair enough. If you had some kid helping you would you be willing to send him off for regular training (knowing he'd be better for a while and then off), would you train him yourself (may stay longer but will still be off) or work him till he leaves without training? Of course. When I did my apprenticeship I did 13 weeks a year block placement at college and 2 nights a week every week for 3 years. I'd do the same if I had an apprentice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinklyfox Posted 18 April 2015 Author Share Posted 18 April 2015 One key point, means tested grants still exist and are tied in when you apply through Student Finance. Trust me, I'm currently at university. You apply through Student Finance for your tuition fees and standard student loans, which everyone is entitled to. In addition to this, there is a means tested grant which does not have to be paid back, I'm eligible for over £3,000 a year. Thanks for the info Tom, I'm not sure if these were around when my youngest went to Uni but I'm glad there's at least some assistance available now. When I went to Uni in the 70's a full grant paid 90% of what you were expected to spend for living costs (I had to find £50, the full grant was £500). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parafox Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 The systems ****ed, they know full well not everyones going to pay it back so the ones that get jobs hold the burden. counter intuitive Yes, of their own debt. You're not repaying anything for those without jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 Get rid of all the "degrees" like spa management etc altogether and the government should subsidise fees for degrees in areas that we need more graduates in i.e. Engineering, 'hard' sciences, Maths Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merging Cultures Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 No, of course not. It's true that not many graduates are in poverty though. Unless they did a useless degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 I have never thought of any of my jobs as apprenticeships. My first job was on Abbey Park. I was there four months. I could have gone to Brooksby College but the chance never came up. My second job was in a warehouse. I waited a few years to get on the production side on piece work. I finally pushed them and thought it was going nowhere so I asked a bloke who was in charge of a loading bay if I could work in that area. The manager then said that I could learn the piecework side. Before he was saying it is a long learning process. I was with a trainer less than 3 month before going on my own time abeit watched over by an old lag. When I started security I was trained for two nights before being left on my own. The first night I had forgot how to set an alarm and had to call out for help. In a word I panicked . At another company a new bloke was put with me and I had to show them the ropes. I was not keen on doing that after only a couple of years in the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseBreath Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 It's effectively free at the point of use and only those who benefit from it financially have to pay for it, and they do so on very favourable terms. Seems fair to me. Most university education is a joke though. A glorified box ticking exercise. The whole thing was devalued immensely by labour pushing for 50% of people to have a degree. Masters are no better, just another year of box ticking. Only a doctorate stands out academically these days and that's ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 I've just started paying it back. It's a big chunk, 3 figures every month. I know people who don't have a job after leaving uni, or low paying jobs and they aren't paying it back yet I am, it's very unfair. It's not that unfair really. I happen to be one of the many who don't yet earn enough to start paying it off. It's nice to know that the government isn't planning on turning my barely sustainable income into an entirely unsustainable one. In a couple of years when I'm earning more and can afford to pay it back I will. How exactly is that unfair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ttfn Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 It's not that unfair really. I happen to be one of the many who don't yet earn enough to start paying it off. It's nice to know that the government isn't planning on turning my barely sustainable income into an entirely unsustainable one. In a couple of years when I'm earning more and can afford to pay it back I will. How exactly is that unfair? I've just finished paying mine off and if anything I think there's a case for graduates with particularly high- paying jobs (not that I'm putting myself in that category) to pick up part of the cost of another student's debt as well. I know a couple of lads who had paid their debt off in 2 years because they had got jobs working on trading desks at investment banks. Absolutely no reason why they couldn't pick up another £400 a month for 2 years to pay off a year of tuition for a kid doing a "proper degree" and/or from a hard up family. They probably wouldn't even have noticed it as ridiculous as that sounds - I certainly didn't notice it at any point when I was paying it back - it was all deducted at source anyway. I suppose really what I'm proposing is a formalised graduate tax. You get a free education but you pay it back over first 5 years you have of full-time employment according to how well you earn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 The problem is a lack of credible alternative to university education post sixth form. University is seen as and pushed as the fashionable choice and vocational courses and apprenticeships are disregarded as uncool, even though they would obviously be a better option than a BA in some tosh for many individuals. When I was doing my A Levels these were never advised to me as an option, however, and I think teachers should do a lot more to push these options to young people rather than just say apply to UCA's and go to Uni. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 18 April 2015 Share Posted 18 April 2015 I run many apprenticeship schemes both in the private and public sectors as well as being an assessor in engineering and construction. I also managed graduates in their first few years in employment. In my experience for this type of skill the apprenticeship was far superior for both the organisation and the employee. The organisation got a much more rounded experienced ready to go employee plus the benefit of 4 years of 4 days a week contribution. The employee ended up well qualified and debt free. Quite a number of my apprentices were also able to continue their education up to degree level on sandwich courses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 19 April 2015 Share Posted 19 April 2015 I've just finished paying mine off and if anything I think there's a case for graduates with particularly high- paying jobs (not that I'm putting myself in that category) to pick up part of the cost of another student's debt as well. I know a couple of lads who had paid their debt off in 2 years because they had got jobs working on trading desks at investment banks. Absolutely no reason why they couldn't pick up another £400 a month for 2 years to pay off a year of tuition for a kid doing a "proper degree" and/or from a hard up family. They probably wouldn't even have noticed it as ridiculous as that sounds - I certainly didn't notice it at any point when I was paying it back - it was all deducted at source anyway. I suppose really what I'm proposing is a formalised graduate tax. You get a free education but you pay it back over first 5 years you have of full-time employment according to how well you earn. Great attitude and shows how ridiculous pay scales are in the west. I run many apprenticeship schemes both in the private and public sectors as well as being an assessor in engineering and construction. I also managed graduates in their first few years in employment. In my experience for this type of skill the apprenticeship was far superior for both the organisation and the employee. The organisation got a much more rounded experienced ready to go employee plus the benefit of 4 years of 4 days a week contribution. The employee ended up well qualified and debt free. Quite a number of my apprentices were also able to continue their education up to degree level on sandwich courses. Correct without a doubt. Now instead of selling off Lloyds to those with extra money why not set it up as a massive banking apprenticeship scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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