The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Guest]

Could Gove be  the UK leader if "leave" wins the referendum?

[Nick]

Could Gove be  the UK leader if "leave" wins the referendum?

 

 

Kill me now.

[Thracian]

Isn't that website strongly backed by pro Isreal supporters? I'm not sure if I'd fully trust the reporting balance - plus the other important thing to remember is that anyone can have a desire to do something, but you need significant backing both financially and pubically to get anywhere, so it's not going to happen.

 

 

My link was chosen at random from many but if i had to "fully trust" a site I'd never post a link to anything and that includes Cameron, Obama, Corbyn and a lot of others.

 

Many of the claims have checkable links and the Leicester Mercury has referred to Sharia Courts in Leicestershire, including interviews with officials, while the reference to the number of sharia courts in the UK is fairly common knowledge. 

 

It's glib to say anything's "not going to happen". And there's lots of money to promote Islamic idealism as clearly demonstrated by the number of mosques - with their wonderful architecture - now gracing many a British and other European communities . 

 

This link touches on the one you cast doubts on but also reflects Cameron's changing attitudes fairly dramatically as well. http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/uk-sharia-law.html

 

Do you suggest pro-Israeli sites are somehow less truthful than other "vested interest" sites? Seems to me that any cause would quickly become ridiculed if its promoters forever referred to provenly false information.

 

   

[Thracian]

I've come to realise over the past few years that all I actually need to know is What Michael Gove is doing and engage in exactly the opposite.

 

 

 

I'd have the same thoughts about you. Especially if I were preparing for a mayoral term! 

[Nick]

I'd have the same thoughts about you. Especially if I were preparing for a mayoral term! 

 

 

Don't give that too much thought - not enough people are gonna vote for your old white man values.

[Guest MattP]

Could Gove be  the UK leader if "leave" wins the referendum?

 

Possible, but unlikely.

 

He has as much chance of being leader in the case of remain as leave though, the referendum is irrelevant, if the Tory backbenchers and members want a change it's going to happen, Boris is still a clear favourite, but Patel, Crabb, Leadsom, May, Gove and Osborne are all still contenders.

 

Don't give that too much thought - not enough people are gonna vote for your old white man values.

 

Any need to get so personal? We avoid that stuff on here these days.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

My link was chosen at random from many but if i had to "fully trust" a site I'd never post a link to anything and that includes Cameron, Obama, Corbyn and a lot of others.

 

Many of the claims have checkable links and the Leicester Mercury has referred to Sharia Courts in Leicestershire, including interviews with officials, while the reference to the number of sharia courts in the UK is fairly common knowledge. 

 

It's glib to say anything's "not going to happen". And there's lots of money to promote Islamic idealism as clearly demonstrated by the number of mosques - with their wonderful architecture - now gracing many a British and other European communities . 

 

This link touches on the one you cast doubts on but also reflects Cameron's changing attitudes fairly dramatically as well. http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/uk-sharia-law.html

 

Do you suggest pro-Israeli sites are somehow less truthful than other "vested interest" sites? Seems to me that any cause would quickly become ridiculed if its promoters forever referred to provenly false information.

Well linking something that has no author or no details explaining what this organisation is / stands for is bizarre. At least recognised media outlets have certain guidelines they need to follow and are open to wider scrutiny - online blogs and smaller scale web items can be written by anyone with a range of vested interests.

Now that's not to dismiss writing of that nature full stop, but it's always useful to look behind the article and understand the drivers that lead to its conclusion.

[Nick]

 

 

Any need to get so personal? We avoid that stuff on here these days.

 

 

 

Yeah Matt, because my views are the offensive ones and I started the personal exchange?

[Alf Bentley]

Could Gove be  the UK leader if "leave" wins the referendum?

 

 

I've already read speculation that Gove might be the lead negotiator of Brexit if we vote out, potentially with Cameron continuing as a lame duck PM in the short-term - or maybe with Boris as PM charming and entertaining the masses.

 

Although Boris isn't the buffoon he entertainingly pretends to be, you certainly can't imagine he'd have the negotiating skills or attention to detail to handle exit negotiations, while Gove probably could.

 

After a transitional phase with Dave & George still in post, but Gove effectively in charge, maybe we'll end up with the following appointments to the big jobs:

- Boris as PM, part PR man, part loose cannon, offering the public bread and circuses

- Gove as Chancellor, imposing "regrettable austerity cuts" & cancelling the "living wage" to address "short-term economic problems", cutting corporation tax "to promote British business" and upper-rate tax "to attract talent"

- IDS as Foreign Secretary making amiable, vacuous small-talk over cocktails at foreign embassies, somehow never achieving anything

- Lord Farage of Ramsgate as Home Secretary, clamping down on immigration - or at least pretending to do so via media opportunities, during which a few Romanians are refused entry or thrown out, his Lordship shrugging jovially, saloon bar stylee

 

I'm sorry, Swan Lesta, you seem to have gone a little pale and vomited in your matchbox...  

 

Largely joking there (I think ), but Boris as the PR monkey & Gove as the organ-grinder pulling the strings and churning out a new ultra-Thatcherite socioeconomic settlement seems quite likely in the medium-term.

 

Though Theresa May is already campaigning for PM as the "compromise candidate" / "safe pair of hands", loyally supporting Dave in theory, while having as little to do with the Remain campaign as she can....  

[Nick]

I've already read speculation that Gove might be the lead negotiator of Brexit if we vote out, potentially with Cameron continuing as a lame duck PM in the short-term - or maybe with Boris as PM charming and entertaining the masses.

 

Although Boris isn't the buffoon he entertainingly pretends to be, you certainly can't imagine he'd have the negotiating skills or attention to detail to handle exit negotiations, while Gove probably could.

 

After a transitional phase with Dave & George still in post, but Gove effectively in charge, maybe we'll end up with the following appointments to the big jobs:

- Boris as PM, part PR man, part loose cannon, offering the public bread and circuses

- Gove as Chancellor, imposing "regrettable austerity cuts" & cancelling the "living wage" to address "short-term economic problems", cutting corporation tax "to promote British business" and upper-rate tax "to attract talent"

- IDS as Foreign Secretary making amiable, vacuous small-talk over cocktails at foreign embassies, somehow never achieving anything

- Lord Farage of Ramsgate as Home Secretary, clamping down on immigration - or at least pretending to do so via media opportunities, during which a few Romanians are refused entry or thrown out, his Lordship shrugging jovially, saloon bar stylee

 

I'm sorry, Swan Lesta, you seem to have gone a little pale and vomited in your matchbox...

 

Largely joking there (I think ), but Boris as the PR monkey & Gove as the organ-grinder pulling the strings and churning out a new ultra-Thatcherite socioeconomic settlement seems quite likely in the medium-term.

 

Though Theresa May is already campaigning for PM as the "compromise candidate" / "safe pair of hands", loyally supporting Dave in theory, while having as little to do with the Remain campaign as she can....  

 

 

I'm not sure I could live with that scenario! 

[leicsmac]

Can any Brexiteers on here give me a convincing argument as to the positive effect of a Brexit on the UK's STEM community?

 

From what I can tell most UK STEMheads are favouring remain, but I was wondering if there were any good arguments science-wise to come out?

 

Still looking for a response on this one. From what I can tell there is so much collaboration between EU scientists on research matters that a Brexit will hurt things, but I wouldn't mind seeing if someone can indicate otherwise.

[Guest MattP]

Yeah Matt, because my views are the offensive ones and I started the personal exchange?

 

If Thracian insulted you first I apologise, haven't read the whole thread.

 

I've already read speculation that Gove might be the lead negotiator of Brexit if we vote out, potentially with Cameron continuing as a lame duck PM in the short-term - or maybe with Boris as PM charming and entertaining the masses.

 

Although Boris isn't the buffoon he entertainingly pretends to be, you certainly can't imagine he'd have the negotiating skills or attention to detail to handle exit negotiations, while Gove probably could.

 

After a transitional phase with Dave & George still in post, but Gove effectively in charge, maybe we'll end up with the following appointments to the big jobs:

- Boris as PM, part PR man, part loose cannon, offering the public bread and circuses

- Gove as Chancellor, imposing "regrettable austerity cuts" & cancelling the "living wage" to address "short-term economic problems", cutting corporation tax "to promote British business" and upper-rate tax "to attract talent"

- IDS as Foreign Secretary making amiable, vacuous small-talk over cocktails at foreign embassies, somehow never achieving anything

- Lord Farage of Ramsgate as Home Secretary, clamping down on immigration - or at least pretending to do so via media opportunities, during which a few Romanians are refused entry or thrown out, his Lordship shrugging jovially, saloon bar stylee

 

I'm sorry, Swan Lesta, you seem to have gone a little pale and vomited in your matchbox...

 

Largely joking there (I think ), but Boris as the PR monkey & Gove as the organ-grinder pulling the strings and churning out a new ultra-Thatcherite socioeconomic settlement seems quite likely in the medium-term.

 

Though Theresa May is already campaigning for PM as the "compromise candidate" / "safe pair of hands", loyally supporting Dave in theory, while having as little to do with the Remain campaign as she can....  

 

Gove is nailed on for chancellor imo (which probably means he won't be giving my recent record of predicting things) If Cameron does want to keep his job in the event of a remain vote he'll have soem serious shuffling to do.

 

I could see a Tory cabinet looking like this surviving until 2020. (Whether Cameron would allow himself to be flanked by his two main Brexit opponents I don't know, but he'll be out of job if he tries to shut them all out)

 

PM: David Cameron

Chancellor: Michael Gove

HS: Boris Johnson

FS: George Osborne

W&P: Stephen Crabb

Defence: Michael Fallon

Health: Teresa May

Education: Nikki Morgan

Business: Priti Patel

CSTTT: Saj Javid

 

Wouldn't see a problem with people like Wittingdale, De Villers, Grayling etc staying put in their jobs.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Placing Boris is quite difficult isn't it - any position you put him in you instantly think 'christ!' In a strange way, he might do least damage as PM because at least he'd just be on oversight duty rather than the actual running!

I'm sure I said Gove for Chancellor a little while back and someone told me I was stupid to think that - might not have been on here.

The other things I wonder about that line up - reckon May would be pushed to a fringe role given her and Gove's past, Ledsom would probably get a higher profile role and I'm sure they'd take the opportunity to dump Nicky Morgan. And no doubt, somehow, Hunt would keep a high profile role, possibly even stay on in health.

[Guest MattP]

Placing Boris is quite difficult isn't it - any position you put him in you instantly think 'christ!' In a strange way, he might do least damage as PM because at least he'd just be on oversight duty rather than the actual running!

I'm sure I said Gove for Chancellor a little while back and someone told me I was stupid to think that - might not have been on here.

The other things I wonder about that line up - reckon May would be pushed to a fringe role given her and Gove's past, Ledsom would probably get a higher profile role and I'm sure they'd take the opportunity to dump Nicky Morgan. And no doubt, somehow, Hunt would keep a high profile role, possibly even stay on in health.

 

Hunt has been quite clear health will be his last front bench job, he fully intends to leave politics in the near future and I have no reason to doubt him as he looks like he has had enough, I almost think he's taking one for the team in the job he is doing now.

 

I forgot about Leadsom, simply has to be given a more prominent role after her performance in the EU debate so far, she's been fantastic.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Still looking for a response on this one. From what I can tell there is so much collaboration between EU scientists on research matters that a Brexit will hurt things, but I wouldn't mind seeing if someone can indicate otherwise.

I expect this area would be largely uneffected - bit of extra paperwork/difficulties possibly in terms of permits/visas, but nothing that would make a dramatic change. The funding they get via the EU might be a bit of question mark, but it's unlikely to be a sector that massively suffers.

[Guest Kopfkino]

are there  people who actually get paid for writing such shight?  what a time to be alive..

The professor who proposed the idea teaches one of my modules next year

[GaelicFox]

When I saw this I changed my vote

[leicsmac]

I expect this area would be largely uneffected - bit of extra paperwork/difficulties possibly in terms of permits/visas, but nothing that would make a dramatic change. The funding they get via the EU might be a bit of question mark, but it's unlikely to be a sector that massively suffers.

 

 

Interesting. Is this anything beyond assertion on your part? I'm honestly curious as my friends in the scientific community across Europe are either actively voting (UK citizens) or passively encouraging (non-UK) Remain pretty much to a lab coat, so perhaps there are reason beyond self-interest that they are choosing to do so.

[bovril]

In the event of Brexit I'll need a fake passport and ID. Anybody on here know where I can get one?

[Nick]

In the event of Brexit I'll need a fake passport and ID. Anybody on here know where I can get one?

 

 

I know a guy, just send me your bank details and I'll hook you up.

When I saw this I changed my vote

 

[SMX11]

When I saw this I changed my vote

You are aware that most of the info on that is complete bollocks and skewed in favour of remain right?

[Guest MattP]

When I saw this I changed my vote

 

You've changed your mind on a piece of made up propaganda?

 

I didn't realise Putin and ISIS had came out for Brexit, is there any evidence for this or are we just believing what has came out of David Cameron's mouth? There is certainly an argument Putin would like a weaker Europe, although my personal viewpoint is he doesn't give a shit, he's invaded South Ossetia, send his forces into the Ukraine and annexed Crimea whilst we've been in it, if the EU wants to kids itself it's been tough on Russia I can't stop them though.

 

One very basic error in the politicians - the DUP are pro-leave. Also the chairperson of the Greens, virtually half the Tories and a rising number of Labour MP's, iof you listen to close companions who have known Corbyn and Cameron for years, they have no problem also telling you that if it wasn't for the current position they hold they would actually be campaigning to leave, the former certainly as he basically was last night on television, giving a heart hearted appeal to stay in the EU until he can leave on his own terms.

 

Another pretty desperate attempt there to try and link Brexit to the far-right again, something I expected this week, but a great shame to see it happen so often, Facebook absolutely full of it now.

 

Here's a list of economists who believe in a leave vote.

 

• Roger Bootle, Managing Director, Capital Economics
• Ryan Bourne, Head of Public Policy, Institute of Economic Affairs
• Keith Boyfield, Executive Director, Keith Boyfield Associates
• Professor Tim Congdon, Founder, International Monetary Research Ltd
• Sean Corrigan, Hinde Capital
• Mike Denham, Research Fellow, The TaxPayers’ Alliance
• Bryan Gould, Former Labour Shadow Cabinet member & former Vice-Chancellor, University of Waikato
• Dr David Green, Chief Executive, CIVITAS
• Dr Graham Gudgin, University of Cambridge
• Dr. Oliver Hartwich, Executive Director, The New Zealand Initiative
• Damon de Laszlo, Chairman, Economic Research Council
• Graeme Leach, Former Chief Economist, Institute of Directors
• Andrew Lilico, Chairman, Economists for Britain
• Neil MacKinnon, Global Macro Strategist, VTB Capital
• Dr Eileen Marshall, IEA Advisory Council
• Professor Kent Matthews, Associate Dean for Engagement & Professor of Money and Banking, Cardiff University
• Michael Petley, Chief Investment Officer, ECU Group
• John Mills, Chairman and Founder of JML
• Professor Patrick Minford, Professor of Economics, Cardiff Business School
• Iain Murray, Vice President for Strategy, Competitive Enterprise Institute (Washington DC)
• David Myddelton, Professor D.R. Myddelton, Emeritus Professor of Finance and Accounting, Cranfield School of Management.
• Ross Parker
• Brian Reading, former economics adviser to Edward Heath
• Professor Colin Robinson, Advisory Council Institute of Economic Affairs & Emeritus Professor, Surrey University
• Matthew Sinclair, Senior Consultant, Europe Economics
• Professor Phil Whyman, Professor of Economics, Business, Economics and International Business, University of Central Lancashire
• Dr Geoffrey Wyatt, Heriot-Watt University

 

To say the NHS is behind remain just because Simon Stevens says so is wrong, many people hold differing opinions at all levels of the organisation, Trade Unions are also split and the NUF whilst supporting a remain vote have also stated their membership is close to 50-50 and if they could have guarantees from the government on subsidy they could even change, something of course a PM arguing a remain vote was never going to give despite knowing deep down he will given how much the Tory vote relies on rural supporters..

 

In terms of historians he's a list of those supporting a leave vote, it's a bit more than one I promise.

 

Professor David Abulafia*, University of Cambridge

Doctor Anna Abulafia, University of Oxford

Professor John Charmley, University of East Anglia

Professor Jonathan Clark*, University of Kansas

Doctor Bruce Coleman*, University of Exeter

Doctor Robert Crowcroft, University of Edinburgh

John Davie*, University of Oxford

Evelyn Farr

Doctor Andrew Fear*, University of Manchester

Doctor Amanda Foreman

Professor Tom Gallagher*, University of Bradford

Professor William Gibson*, Oxford Brookes University

Richard Goldsbrough*

Doctor Abigail Green*, University of Oxford

Professor Shaun Gregory, University of Durham

Doctor Owen Hartley, University of Leeds

Doctor Rebecca Haynes*, University College London

James Holland

Doctor Robert Hutchinson

Doctor Han Rog Kang, University of Oxford

Doctor Sheila Lawlor, Director, Politeia

John Lee*

Celia Lee*

Tim Newark*

Professor Gwythian Prins*, London School of Economics

Professor A.W. Purdue*

Professor Martyn Rady*, University College London

Doctor Richard Rex, University of Cambridge

Doctor Andrew Roberts*

Doctor Lee Rotherham*

Professor Guy Rowlands*, University of St Andrews

Professor Nigel Saul*, Royal Holloway, University of London

Professor Richard Shannon, University of Wales

Digby Smith*

Doctor Irina Somerton*, University of London

Doctor Andrew M Spencer*, University of Cambridge

Doctor David Starkey*, University of Cambridge

Doctor Graham Stewart

Professor Robert Tombs*, University of Cambridge

Miranda Vickers

Doctor Brian Young, University of Oxford

Count Adam Zamoyski*

 

Here is a list of Scientists for Britain - http://scientistsforbritain.uk/wordpress/?page_id=54

 

Bit bemused by the last box as I didn't know things such as "women's rights" as a whole could come out in support for Brexit. (Although if they could I'd imagine the right to govern yourself without outside interference would be in the second box)

 

 

I actually can't wait for this to be over now, the lies, deception and complete distortion of the truth from both sides has been absolutely appalling. It's sad now that you can't win an election on telling the truth, a lesson for the future is the out campaign will have to be just as nasty and deceptive as the remainers, if that means spreading lies to be shared around social media then so be it.

[Dodgy Bob]

Still looking for a response on this one. From what I can tell there is so much collaboration between EU scientists on research matters that a Brexit will hurt things, but I wouldn't mind seeing if someone can indicate otherwise.

Depends how you're defining STEM really. It's potentially a massive industry encompassing everything from research academics to road gang labourers and chicken filleters to app developers and astronauts.

If you're just talking about the research side of things I wouldn't have thought it will make much difference. Although collaboration is obviously key and anything that puts up a boundary in that respect is not good, I can't see leaving researchers and academics being put off or having much extra trouble collaborating across borders.

[IrememberBobHazell]

Just to say that I have been catching up on this one and (in my opinion) there is not a chance Gove would be the next Conservative leader/ Prime Minister.

 These days the selection process is driven by membership not those within the Westminster bubble and the membership won't go for him. I'm a card carrying Tory and there is no way I would support him and I know plenty more in the same boat.

[Countryfox]

When I saw this I changed my vote

 

I'm with you Paddy ..   if the Students union vote in I'm out !