The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[lifted*fox]

Oh fair enough, you are just patronising then

Not patronising, just realistic tbh.

[Strokes]

That's what an elections for? All of those things are determined by domestic policy.

Yes and it's probably four years away, this one is on Thursday.

[lifted*fox]

That's the problem though, people shouldn't be treating this as a general election or a chance to stick two fingers up to the current Tory government. It's about something completely different, hence my comment about people not understanding the implications.

[GaelicFox]

Should we be having a referendum on immigration then, not being a member of the EU? Because trust me, a LOT of people voting leave are doing so (with racist / xenophobic intent or not) because of their views on immigration.

WTF ?

Nearly every immigrant I know is voting leave

Including me

Explain that ? ? ?

[Webbo]

Can I just check...

Do you not think the NHS could have been effected by staffing shortages, the increased life expectancy of our population, the increase in obesity amongst our population, the increase of general stress within society, the increase and wider recognition of mental health in our society, the advancement of science (so we know more and can do more with medicine) and various other factors?

And housing - might there be problems with a lack of building at ground level and the growing trend of people to buy houses to let, leading to several self made landlords holding a string of properties that gives them ever increasing income allowing to hover up new housing opportunities quickly as well?

Roads? Well what was the one car family could having anything between 2 and 4 these days?

School places - isn't this more of an issue of good schools being over-subscribed because there are too many poor standard / undesirable schools?

Wages - I'll come back on.

But to suggest one area is a cause of all ills is silly - and I say this because many won't, I sense we actually need the level of immigration at the moment to balance the difficulties we will face with public expenditure in the next 10-20 years.

Yes all those things make a difference too.

 

Now can I just check? Does adding 300,000+ a year affect those things as well?

[Dr The Singh]

WTF ?

Nearly every immigrant I know is voting leave

Including me

Explain that ? ? ?

So true dat

[Thracian]

Can you even have one without the other?

We have vote for immigration - unanimously vote we don't want it.

"tough, you're in Europe, open boarders for you"

"k"

 

WTF ?

Nearly every immigrant I know is voting leave

Including me

Explain that ? ? ?

 

 

Yes, I've been struck by that and, while the Labour supporting lefties would import a world full of immigrants and sell their mothers if it gave them power, the real truth is that most "Leavers" don't want an end to all immigration but a reduction and sensible choice of immigrants and control of numbers.

the Lefties just  use the racist/xenophobic comments as a smokescreen for a policy which has done untold damage not just here but across Europe. They have no sincerity at all and some even use graphics mocking such things as patriotism as if their attitudes are something to be proud of.

Thankfully a lot of former immigrants are also as patriotic as even the best of Brits. 

[Strokes]

That's the problem though, people shouldn't be treating this as a general election or a chance to stick two fingers up to the current Tory government. It's about something completely different, hence my comment about people not understanding the implications.

I don't think they are treating it as a general election, I think they are hoping to make a stand and change their futures for them and their children.

[Thracian]

Do I think it's happened by accident? No, the free movement of people act wasn't to liberate the poor. Successive governments have overlooked this migration wave, hating the government has got them nowhere. They are maybe looking to stick two fingers up at them. Like I say I'm not defending the racism but I find strange that people are so quick to dismiss a large portion of people as irrelevant, when normally they can't wait to defend them. Quite often they are reading between the lines to conclude racism.

You could have one Leftie alone among a whole nation who felt differently and the Leftie would want to heckle you down and impose his own will.   

[johnny the fox]

Yes, I've been struck by that and why the Labour supporting lefties who would import a world full of immigrants and sell their mothers if it gave them power the real truth is that most "Leavers" don't want an end to all immigration but a reduction and sensible choice of immigrants and control of numbers.

the Lefties just  use the racist/xenophobic comments as a smokescreen for a policy which has done untold damage not just here but across Europe. They have no sincerity at all and some even use graphics mocking such things as patriotism as if their attitudes are something to be proud of.

Thankfully a lot of former immigrants are also as patriotic as even the best of Brits. 

Think Labour are going to be in real shock come friday...what they assume is their core vote is going to desert them ..apart from the metropolitan luuvies.. the disconnect is palpable .... when you hear alan johnson supporting and backing up chancellor osborne.. you wince..

[sphericalfox]

WTF ?

Nearly every immigrant I know is voting leave

Including me

Explain that ? ? ?

 

 

You're misinformed?

[Mark_w]

I've all but given up on this referendum now. Remain campaign are using Jo Cox as a way of getting votes unfortunately and that will easily get them over the line. David Cameron has said today, don't do what Nigel farage wants, do what Jo Cox believed in.

 

And Farage has responded by pointing out how despicable it is to use this tragedy for political purposes. Bit rich coming from him given how quickly he used the Charlie Hebdo and Paris attacks to condemn the EU.

[Foxxed]

I'd vote brexit in some circumstances.

Your own decisions are underwritten by the cash in your hand. And a country's decisions are similarly underwritten by its economic muscle.

And a country directs its own destiny based on its economic and military strength.

Imagine if our economy were at such a level where we could rise roughshod against the opinions of the world's trading blocks.

If ours were at a state where we could--like it was in the past--then I'd see no economic point in the EU.

But it's not.

Like the rest of the European countries, our economic advantage from the industrial revolution has dwindled after larger countries have caught up.

To ignore this fact is nothing more than economic romanticism.

And to embrace this fact means to either a) find something that again gives us that advantage or b) pool our economic leverages to counter larger countries.

That, and the well of highly emotional, and in my opinion dangerous, hatred wrought by the far right, is why Brexit seems untenable to me.

My worst case scenarios is a dangerous cycle of economic downturn interleaved by extremist right wing violence against immigrants and "traitors" as scapegoatism. I'd rather work with others to improve the EU thanks.

[sphericalfox]

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Yes all those things make a difference too.

 

Now can I just check? Does adding 300,000+ a year affect those things as well?

Within a population of 69,000,000? I'm not saying the increase is insignificant, but in terms of weight of factors I'd say the other factors are more significant.

The other thing that is clear to me, like it or not, we have a population imbalance that actually requires a working age population increase.

[wurmer]

You're misinformed?

Misinformed because he has a different viewpoint to you??

OK.

[Thracian]

Can I just check...

Do you not think the NHS could have been effected by staffing shortages, the increased life expectancy of our population, the increase in obesity amongst our population, the increase of general stress within society, the increase and wider recognition of mental health in our society, the advancement of science (so we know more and can do more with medicine) and various other factors?

And housing - might there be problems with a lack of building at ground level and the growing trend of people to buy houses to let, leading to several self made landlords holding a string of properties that gives them ever increasing income allowing to hover up new housing opportunities quickly as well?

Roads? Well what was the one car family could having anything between 2 and 4 these days?

School places - isn't this more of an issue of good schools being over-subscribed because there are too many poor standard / undesirable schools?

Wages - I'll come back on.

But to suggest one area is a cause of all ills is silly - and I say this because many won't, I sense we actually need the level of immigration at the moment to balance the difficulties we will face with public expenditure in the next 10-20 years.

 

 

The NHS would benefit from more and better training of staff in our universities and having the kind of expert, fully trained personnel to utilise our facilities in the best way possible seven days a week.

 

People rent houses for two reasons. Mobility and, in particular, the flexibility to move quickly to a job in a different part of the country - and cost. So many young people can't afford a house these days. The answer to that would be to build more houses quickly but then we'd import still more people and the same problem would remain.

 

I've nothing particular against housing being built so long as we have the infrastructure to cope which clearly isn't the case as it stands and so long as native kids can still get houses and jobs because the first responsibility of a any government is to look after its own people first.

 

Roads only illustrate our failure to provide the infrastructure to deal with a population that is rising too quickly. The roads are getting busier, the safety measures are making them slower, the extent of repairs at any one time is ridiculous now and parking is becoming such a nightmare they're contriving opportunities to fine people to help with the costs of coping.

 

As for schools they are all overcrowded in many big cities and lots of people are complaining they can't get their kids into the schools of their choice. Furthermore the entire character of schools is changing to the point where some schools are entirely full of incomers leaving the rest to look further afield.

 

As for needing immigration to cope with spending levels I'd disagree. The war in Iraq has and is wasting fortunes, infrastructure repairs are wasting more because the infrastructure is overloaded, and we're sitting on so much fracking gas we ought to have income aplenty for years to come if they'd stop bellyaching about tapping into the stuff.

 

While our industry's been handicapped by court cases and protests, the Americans have largely overcome concerns about extracting the stuff and are already banking their returns. We just limp along waiting for the fog of controversy to clear.            

 

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3867/uk_shale_gas_estimate_goes_stratospheric

[wurmer]

And Farage has responded by pointing out how despicable it is to use this tragedy for political purposes. Bit rich coming from him given how quickly he used the Charlie Hebdo and Paris attacks to condemn the EU.

Farage is a tit.

Voting For Brexit is not voting for Farage. He won't get anywhere near power to actually implement an exit. Thank God.

[sphericalfox]

Misinformed because he has a different viewpoint to you??

OK.

 

 

As an immigrant myself, and my wife an immigrant too, I believe he may be misinformed yes. He asked a question to explain why he thinks all immigrants he knows want to leave. I'm offering him one of many answers, but probably the most likely one.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

I don't think they are treating it as a general election, I think they are hoping to make a stand and change their futures for them and their children.

The question is, is this the right stand to take?

Trust me, the EU will change and within that, the Freedom of Movement Principle will be up for discussion - large population moves is no good for any country (mass moves out also cause problems). There is pressure to discuss this issue from several sides and Donald Tusk for one has made it clear changes are needed.

The other thing that is important to understand - no ones really brought these discussions to the EU table before now. Given the scenario, there is now political weight from France, Holland, Denmark, Italy, Spain and possibly even Germany to discuss and agree a situation that works better for all concerned. To some degree, it could be a change within the EU might make it easier to reduce immigration overall than coming out.

[Dodgy Bob]

Do I think it's happened by accident? No, the free movement of people act wasn't to liberate the poor. Successive governments have overlooked this migration wave, hating the government has got them nowhere. They are maybe looking to stick two fingers up at them. Like I say I'm not defending the racism but I find strange that people are so quick to dismiss a large portion of people as irrelevant, when normally they can't wait to defend them. Quite often they are reading between the lines to conclude racism.

Similarly isn't it strange that people who are usually free market tories who think things like zero hours contracts are necessary for efficient business are now suddenly completely unconcerned by economic progress and just wish their local warehouse would pay their forklift truck drivers £2 more per hour?

It's actually quite interesting how this debate has transcended some of the entrenched lines between left and right. A better quality debate without caricatures like Izzard and Farage would have done it even more so.

[johnny the fox]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/681614/Calais-migrants-refugees-Britain-UK-EU-referendum-Brexit-Euro-2016  as Paul McCartney said...let em in ..

[Saxondale]

We can easily sort the immigration problem whilst making the country a better place:

 

Let them in. Let them all in. But for every immigrant, we deport one of our own home-grown twats (of which there are plenty).

 

I'd rather the country was full of Syrian and Lithuanian workers than British career benefit-claimants. 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

The NHS would benefit from more and better training of staff in our universities and having the kind of expert, fully trained personnel to utilise our facilities in the best way possible seven days a week.

 

People rent houses for two reasons. Mobility and, in particular, the flexibility to move quickly to a job in a different part of the country - and cost. So many young people can't afford a house these days. The answer to that would be to build more houses quickly but then we'd import still more people and the same problem would remain.

 

I've nothing particular against housing being built so long as we have the infrastructure to cope which clearly isn't the case as it stands and so long as native kids can still get houses and jobs because the first responsibility of a any government is to look after its own people first.

 

Roads only illustrate our failure to provide the infrastructure to deal with a population that is rising too quickly. The roads are getting busier, the safety measures are making them slower, the extent of repairs at any one time is ridiculous now and parking is becoming such a nightmare they're contriving opportunities to fine people to help with the costs of coping.

 

As for schools they are all overcrowded in many big cities and lots of people are complaining they can't get their kids into the schools of their choice. Furthermore the entire character of schools is changing to the point where some schools are entirely full of incomers leaving the rest to look further afield.

 

As for needing immigration to cope with spending levels I'd disagree. The war in Iraq has and is wasting fortunes, infrastructure repairs are wasting more because the infrastructure is overloaded, and we're sitting on so much fracking gas we ought to have income aplenty for years to come if they'd stop bellyaching about tapping into the stuff.

 

While our industry's been handicapped by court cases and protests, the Americans have largely overcome concerns about extracting the stuff and are already banking their returns. We just limp along waiting for the fog of controversy to clear.            

 

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3867/uk_shale_gas_estimate_goes_stratospheric

Ok all very nice ideas - but whilst we run a deficit and have a huge part of our budget catered towards pensions and the hospital care that the elderly will need, we won't be able to do much of that. Borrowing to spend on propping up annual spend is not a great way to go about things.

Personally I'd prefer to look at a range of infrastructure projects that the government keeps a share of so it recoups its investment over the longer term - so council houses, minus the right to buy (keep them in stock, give people a discount to buy a new home, not the council house so it feels like they're moving up the ladder), sort out the railways and major town centre transport links so cars no longer seem so essential and look to be leaders in renewable energy, especially tidal given that's a natural resource of ours that's ever present.

I'm not so sure about Fracking myself - like a lot of these things, the full impacts aren't really known until 20/30 years time, I could see it causing subsidence or flooding issues longer term.

But as I've pointed out and I'd be amazed if anyone could disagree - the biggest reason for the problems above is due to decisions taken at UK government level.

[Dodgy Bob]

But as I've pointed out and I'd be amazed if anyone could disagree - the biggest reason for the problems above is due to decisions taken at UK government level.

Totally agree with that, our inability to provide appropriate infrastructure is a problem entirely of our own making. We know the scale of immigration, and yet we still can't plan properly. What makes anyone think we'll be able to plan any better just because population growth is marginally slower? Especially considering we'll likely have less money.