The Railway Man Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 When I saw this I changed my vote Saw this on facebook earlier, Thursday can't come quick enough. How bad is this project fear going to be by Thursday night?
RobHawk Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Horrible stuff, seen more and more of this over the last few days, I can see why they are doing it though, it's working. Oh look - Individuals on both sides are as bad as each other! https://theholisticworks.com/2016/06/19/the-truth-about-the-late-jo-cox-mp-and-her-husband-brendan/
RobHawk Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 I know a guy, just send me your bank details and I'll hook you up. I think if you check the OP on facebook they guys created a better and more representative version of this. I haven't taken much notice of this kind of thing, but saw the updated version a few days ago where he cited where he got most of the people from. It wasnt as detailed as Matts response for the out side but was much better.
Thracian Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Well linking something that has no author or no details explaining what this organisation is / stands for is bizarre. At least recognised media outlets have certain guidelines they need to follow and are open to wider scrutiny - online blogs and smaller scale web items can be written by anyone with a range of vested interests. Now that's not to dismiss writing of that nature full stop, but it's always useful to look behind the article and understand the drivers that lead to its conclusion. The Gatestone Institute links were by Soeren Kern. http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/biography/Soeren+Kern. Seems to have a sound enough bibliography to me. Seems to be a specialist on the subject and hardly likely to risk his reputation with lies for all that i'd doubt he'll be any less biased or committed to his agenda than Islamists are to theirs, Cameron to his or Corbyn and Swan Lesta to socialism. Are his facts even in question? If so I'm all ears. Sharia is not the only law practiced in the UK outside the mainstream. There's an argument that says such courts serve a purpose and Islamists seem proud of their justice system from conversations I've had. Whether that's right for the future of supposedly freedom-loving, multicultural Britain - or even understood as being an aim for some - is another matter.
The Railway Man Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Oh look - Individuals on both sides are as bad as each other! https://theholisticworks.com/2016/06/19/the-truth-about-the-late-jo-cox-mp-and-her-husband-brendan/ They are, but politically we shouldn't compare a random whackjob on a forum to an elected official. Although since I posted this she removed it and apologised, and that apology should be accepted and we should move on.
Thracian Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Interesting. Is this anything beyond assertion on your part? I'm honestly curious as my friends in the scientific community across Europe are either actively voting (UK citizens) or passively encouraging (non-UK) Remain pretty much to a lab coat, so perhaps there are reason beyond self-interest that they are choosing to do so. The Leave campaign insist there'll be "plenty of money" available for STEM so it depends who you want to be convinced by. With the US and China wholeheartedly committed to such research and development I can't imagine anyone in the UK being so short-sighted as to short-change an area of such importance to our future wellbeing on so many levels both academically and financially. Quite apart from Leave's assurance I've mentioned the Shale industry and the massive amount of money that should generate for all the extraction concerns that wouldn't deter scientists if their solving was linked to something more popular such as medical advances and which have actually been much improved already, at least so I've read. Anyway, Shale/Fracking or not, I think scientific research and support will be the last thing to suffer from a Leave victory. It wouldn't make sense.
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Interesting. Is this anything beyond assertion on your part? I'm honestly curious as my friends in the scientific community across Europe are either actively voting (UK citizens) or passively encouraging (non-UK) Remain pretty much to a lab coat, so perhaps there are reason beyond self-interest that they are choosing to do so. Nope, largely guess work - but in terms working together I'm thinking what problems might they face; 1.) Working rights / documents - most would be catered under temporary visas and they'd be sponsored, so shouldn't be a massive problem there. 2.) UK government will still want overseas students to come in as it helps fund the universities - that category would be left open ended I imagine, so again it would be extra paperwork mainly. The biggest loss could be funding (difficult to determin exact impact, would depend on government priorities) or UK students opportunities to study in other European countries - but then again, I expect there would still be similar opportunities for those who want to persue it. I couldn't see any reason why the co-operation they have now wouldn't be catered for on an exit, given its mutually beneficial. It's like the security issue - there's no real reason why either position should make much of a difference. My hunch - the science community as a whole are more centre-left leaning and have a decent relationship with the EU via their funding mechanism, hence why they are pro EU.
GaelicFox Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 My 6yo just came home from school "Daddy Amy said because your Irish you have to leave home and go back to ireland once Jamie Vardy is voted out of the the Europe country" Where the FECK do I start that conversation LOL Project fear has 6yo's scared witless
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Just to say that I have been catching up on this one and (in my opinion) there is not a chance Gove would be the next Conservative leader/ Prime Minister. These days the selection process is driven by membership not those within the Westminster bubble and the membership won't go for him. I'm a card carrying Tory and there is no way I would support him and I know plenty more in the same boat. I thought he topped a poll of Tory members with something like 34%?
GaelicFox Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 You are aware that most of the info on that is complete bollocks and skewed in favour of remain right? Ones being sarcastic I forgot an emoticon I'm praying for a leave ! I'm with you Paddy .. if the Students union vote in I'm out ! Them lazy feckers !
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 My 6yo just came home from school "Daddy Amy said because your Irish you have to leave home and go back to ireland once Jamie Vardy is voted out of the the Europe country" Where the FECK do I start that conversation LOL Project fear has 6yo's scared witless Amy deserves a present!
GaelicFox Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 You've changed your mind on a piece of made up propaganda? I didn't realise Putin and ISIS had came out for Brexit, is there any evidence for this or are we just believing what has came out of David Cameron's mouth? There is certainly an argument Putin would like a weaker Europe, although my personal viewpoint is he doesn't give a shit, he's invaded South Ossetia, send his forces into the Ukraine and annexed Crimea whilst we've been in it, if the EU wants to kids itself it's been tough on Russia I can't stop them though. One very basic error in the politicians - the DUP are pro-leave. Also the chairperson of the Greens, virtually half the Tories and a rising number of Labour MP's, iof you listen to close companions who have known Corbyn and Cameron for years, they have no problem also telling you that if it wasn't for the current position they hold they would actually be campaigning to leave, the former certainly as he basically was last night on television, giving a heart hearted appeal to stay in the EU until he can leave on his own terms. Another pretty desperate attempt there to try and link Brexit to the far-right again, something I expected this week, but a great shame to see it happen so often, Facebook absolutely full of it now. Here's a list of economists who believe in a leave vote. Roger Bootle, Managing Director, Capital Economics Ryan Bourne, Head of Public Policy, Institute of Economic Affairs Keith Boyfield, Executive Director, Keith Boyfield Associates Professor Tim Congdon, Founder, International Monetary Research Ltd Sean Corrigan, Hinde Capital Mike Denham, Research Fellow, The TaxPayers’ Alliance Bryan Gould, Former Labour Shadow Cabinet member & former Vice-Chancellor, University of Waikato Dr David Green, Chief Executive, CIVITAS Dr Graham Gudgin, University of Cambridge Dr. Oliver Hartwich, Executive Director, The New Zealand Initiative Damon de Laszlo, Chairman, Economic Research Council Graeme Leach, Former Chief Economist, Institute of Directors Andrew Lilico, Chairman, Economists for Britain Neil MacKinnon, Global Macro Strategist, VTB Capital Dr Eileen Marshall, IEA Advisory Council Professor Kent Matthews, Associate Dean for Engagement & Professor of Money and Banking, Cardiff University Michael Petley, Chief Investment Officer, ECU Group John Mills, Chairman and Founder of JML Professor Patrick Minford, Professor of Economics, Cardiff Business School Iain Murray, Vice President for Strategy, Competitive Enterprise Institute (Washington DC) David Myddelton, Professor D.R. Myddelton, Emeritus Professor of Finance and Accounting, Cranfield School of Management. Ross Parker Brian Reading, former economics adviser to Edward Heath Professor Colin Robinson, Advisory Council Institute of Economic Affairs & Emeritus Professor, Surrey University Matthew Sinclair, Senior Consultant, Europe Economics Professor Phil Whyman, Professor of Economics, Business, Economics and International Business, University of Central Lancashire Dr Geoffrey Wyatt, Heriot-Watt University To say the NHS is behind remain just because Simon Stevens says so is wrong, many people hold differing opinions at all levels of the organisation, Trade Unions are also split and the NUF whilst supporting a remain vote have also stated their membership is close to 50-50 and if they could have guarantees from the government on subsidy they could even change, something of course a PM arguing a remain vote was never going to give despite knowing deep down he will given how much the Tory vote relies on rural supporters.. In terms of historians he's a list of those supporting a leave vote, it's a bit more than one I promise. Professor David Abulafia*, University of Cambridge Doctor Anna Abulafia, University of Oxford Professor John Charmley, University of East Anglia Professor Jonathan Clark*, University of Kansas Doctor Bruce Coleman*, University of Exeter Doctor Robert Crowcroft, University of Edinburgh John Davie*, University of Oxford Evelyn Farr Doctor Andrew Fear*, University of Manchester Doctor Amanda Foreman Professor Tom Gallagher*, University of Bradford Professor William Gibson*, Oxford Brookes University Richard Goldsbrough* Doctor Abigail Green*, University of Oxford Professor Shaun Gregory, University of Durham Doctor Owen Hartley, University of Leeds Doctor Rebecca Haynes*, University College London James Holland Doctor Robert Hutchinson Doctor Han Rog Kang, University of Oxford Doctor Sheila Lawlor, Director, Politeia John Lee* Celia Lee* Tim Newark* Professor Gwythian Prins*, London School of Economics Professor A.W. Purdue* Professor Martyn Rady*, University College London Doctor Richard Rex, University of Cambridge Doctor Andrew Roberts* Doctor Lee Rotherham* Professor Guy Rowlands*, University of St Andrews Professor Nigel Saul*, Royal Holloway, University of London Professor Richard Shannon, University of Wales Digby Smith* Doctor Irina Somerton*, University of London Doctor Andrew M Spencer*, University of Cambridge Doctor David Starkey*, University of Cambridge Doctor Graham Stewart Professor Robert Tombs*, University of Cambridge Miranda Vickers Doctor Brian Young, University of Oxford Count Adam Zamoyski* Here is a list of Scientists for Britain - http://scientistsforbritain.uk/wordpress/?page_id=54 Bit bemused by the last box as I didn't know things such as "women's rights" as a whole could come out in support for Brexit. (Although if they could I'd imagine the right to govern yourself without outside interference would be in the second box) I actually can't wait for this to be over now, the lies, deception and complete distortion of the truth from both sides has been absolutely appalling. It's sad now that you can't win an election on telling the truth, a lesson for the future is the out campaign will have to be just as nasty and deceptive as the remainers, if that means spreading lies to be shared around social media then so be it. Yea I sort of posted it to show how crazy the whole thing is ! I'm a "leaver" I'm shocked at how many Irish people are firmly in the stay camp We spent 800 years fighting the English for independence and our poor auld British cousins need their independence back and we won't lend them a few hundred thousand votes ! Short memories us paddies have !
leicsmac Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 The Leave campaign insist there'll be "plenty of money" available for STEM so it depends who you want to be convinced by. With the US and China wholeheartedly committed to such research and development I can't imagine anyone in the UK being so short-sighted as to short-change an area of such importance to our future wellbeing on so many levels both academically and financially. Quite apart from Leave's assurance I've mentioned the Shale industry and the massive amount of money that should generate for all the extraction concerns that wouldn't deter scientists if their solving was linked to something more popular such as medical advances and which have actually been much improved already, at least so I've read. Anyway, Shale/Fracking or not, I think scientific research and support will be the last thing to suffer from a Leave victory. It wouldn't make sense. Shale gas is an environmental nightmare waiting to happen unless really properly managed. There are much better and more profitable in longer term areas of energy development we should be looking at. Regarding shortchanging...well, given the contempt of the political elite towards the sciences in the past and the prioritisation of the arts over it throughout UK history (artists get the millions, STEMheads get the shed at the bottom of the garden etc) makes me somewhat leery of any promise a UK politician makes regarding science, regardless of what horse they've backed in this particular case. Nope, largely guess work - but in terms working together I'm thinking what problems might they face; 1.) Working rights / documents - most would be catered under temporary visas and they'd be sponsored, so shouldn't be a massive problem there. 2.) UK government will still want overseas students to come in as it helps fund the universities - that category would be left open ended I imagine, so again it would be extra paperwork mainly. The biggest loss could be funding (difficult to determin exact impact, would depend on government priorities) or UK students opportunities to study in other European countries - but then again, I expect there would still be similar opportunities for those who want to persue it. I couldn't see any reason why the co-operation they have now wouldn't be catered for on an exit, given its mutually beneficial. It's like the security issue - there's no real reason why either position should make much of a difference. My hunch - the science community as a whole are more centre-left leaning and have a decent relationship with the EU via their funding mechanism, hence why they are pro EU. Sounds reasonably fair, it's possible science won't be that much affected by a Brexit and thus the reasons you give for most STEMheads wanting to Remain are the right ones. We're a bunch of idealists for the most part and I think that when you collaborate with so many people from differing nations of similar interest, nationality becomes less of a talking point.
Thracian Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 For those on the 'leave' side that go out of their way to insist that this referendum isn't about immigration, I'd be interested in whether they would prefer 1. Leave the EU and 'benefit' from 'getting our country back' economically but maintaining open borders or 2. Closed borders but we remain in the EU and the economic effect that it entails. Many of the leavers that are being vocal about their decision have tried their damnedest to avoid saying they don't want any more immigrants, spouting 'guesstimated' economic benefits as the major driver. To assume that we will be better off financially if we do leave is too much 'hit and hope' for me with very little basis. While Leavers will cite expert opinions as to why we will be better off, they seem quite happy to ignore expert opinions from those that say otherwise. My advice to anyone that is still unsure, is to vote stay for the time being. There will always be the opportunity to have another referendum in the future should things change, but once the divorce from the EU goes through, we will not be allowed back in again with the same privileges as we have now. Whatever you do, don't base your decision on immigration alone but disguise it as an economic one. I'm happy to be unambiguous. I favour reduced, selective immigration based on a points and vetting system that is designed to safeguard our society, our freedoms, our levels of tolerance and our industrial or community needs as much as is ever likely to be possible. I don't believe free movement within the EU has particular merits at all. There are lots of valuable people out there in the wider world and lots we can do without in Europe. There's no guarantee of another referendum anytime soon (and little chance at all if Remain wins) but I don't believe leaving will damage the UK economically except perhaps momentarily. I've never believed in one-industry areas in the UK any more than I believe in one-main-area trading blocs internationally and I don't believe for one instant that the EU will dream of distancing itself from 70m potential customers in a fit of pique and even if they wanted to, they'd soon change their minds. Just as an example: . According to Sky News back in 2014: Audi took the crown as the best-selling premium car brand in Britain during 2013, with nearly 400 cars being sold daily. A total of 142,039 Audis were sold in the UK last year, up 14.9% on the 2012 figure - but its total sales in the EU dropped by 0.9%. Add in brands like BMW, VW, Mercedes etc and you can see just how important the UK market is for a German nation that will be needing all the income it can get.
Guest MattP Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Yea I sort of posted it to show how crazy the whole thing is ! I'm a "leaver" I'm shocked at how many Irish people are firmly in the stay camp We spent 800 years fighting the English for independence and our poor auld British cousins need their independence back and we won't lend them a few hundred thousand votes ! Short memories us paddies have ! I was quite vocal to my own Irish family at the time of the Lisbon treaty that after hundreds of years fighting us for independence all we really had to do was sit down with a few Europeans, get the mainstream media to tell you how important it is and then scare you into signing your own rights, currency etc away on the basis you'll suffer if you don't Sadly, my own country appears to also be going the same way.
Jon the Hat Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 It's blinkered to say that everyone voting to leave is xenophobic / racist. It's equally blinkered to say that nobody voting to leave is xenophobic / racist. Without a doubt though, there are LOTS of people who will be voting leave because they have built a fantasy in their mind of a time when Britain was great, before all those 'bloody immigrants ruined our great country'. That time didn't exist - but it makes for a great excuse as to why their own lives aren't playing out how they'd like them to. There are also loads of people voting remain because they are scared of the utter nonsense spread by the government, or because change is generally less comforting.
Thracian Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Shale gas is an environmental nightmare waiting to happen unless really properly managed. There are much better and more profitable in longer term areas of energy development we should be looking at. Regarding shortchanging...well, given the contempt of the political elite towards the sciences in the past and the prioritisation of the arts over it throughout UK history (artists get the millions, STEMheads get the shed at the bottom of the garden etc) makes me somewhat leery of any promise a UK politician makes regarding science, regardless of what horse they've backed in this particular case. -------------------- I'm not against other energy developments - my oldest already drives a Tesla which is powered from his solar panels. As for your "contempt" for the political elite, I sympathise, but it does suggest you've pretty much decided not to be convinced and there's no way I could prove or convince you of anyone's sincerity. As stated, I just don't think it would make sense. Quite the contrary. ---------------------------------------------------------- Sounds reasonably fair, it's possible science won't be that much affected by a Brexit and thus the reasons you give for most STEMheads wanting to Remain are the right ones. We're a bunch of idealists for the most part and I think that when you collaborate with so many people from differing nations of similar interest, nationality becomes less of a talking point.
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 The Gatestone Institute links were by Soeren Kern. http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/biography/Soeren+Kern. Seems to have a sound enough bibliography to me. Seems to be a specialist on the subject and hardly likely to risk his reputation with lies for all that i'd doubt he'll be any less biased or committed to his agenda than Islamists are to theirs, Cameron to his or Corbyn and Swan Lesta to socialism. Are his facts even in question? If so I'm all ears. Sharia is not the only law practiced in the UK outside the mainstream. There's an argument that says such courts serve a purpose and Islamists seem proud of their justice system from conversations I've had. Whether that's right for the future of supposedly freedom-loving, multicultural Britain - or even understood as being an aim for some - is another matter. This guy seems to have bought all the Google search results for himself - I've found it nigh on impossible to locate an independent verification of who he is, it's all links to his own material. Is he regular on Fox News by any chance?
Thracian Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Don't give that too much thought - not enough people are gonna vote for your old white man values. Yes, your Labour Party have long made that clear but at least you've acknowledged as much. .
leicsmac Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 -------------------- I'm not against other energy developments - my oldest already drives a Tesla which is powered from his solar panels. As for your "contempt" for the political elite, I sympathise, but it does suggest you've pretty much decided not to be convinced and there's no way I could prove or convince you of anyone's sincerity. As stated, I just don't think it would make sense. Quite the contrary. ---------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps contempt was a big strong because I haven't made myself understood there, I don't think. I think it's perfectly plausible that in the event of a Brexit scientific research funding would remain untouched and business would go on (pretty much) as usual, but my issue is that 'business as usual' is piss poor regardless of what UK party is running the show at any one time, because of a longstanding belief in the UK of the moneyed and political interests valuing arts over sciences. Outside of its use in warfare, I have little faith in most single nation governments regarding scientific research.
Darkon84 Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Having just been on Facebook, I can't help but feel Zuckerberg's lot are having a little hand in this again, as they've admitted to doing previously. On the 'trending' bit in the top right hand corner, I'm struggling to believe that the top 3 trending things are: There is no way in hell that those two things are trending more than the episode of GoT last night. I'm simply not buying it
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Perhaps contempt was a big strong because I haven't made myself understood there, I don't think. I think it's perfectly plausible that in the event of a Brexit scientific research funding would remain untouched and business would go on (pretty much) as usual, but my issue is that 'business as usual' is piss poor regardless of what UK party is running the show at any one time, because of a longstanding belief in the UK of the moneyed and political interests valuing arts over sciences. Outside of its use in warfare, I have little faith in most single nation governments regarding scientific research. This is a similar argument that I made about the EU redevelopment funds, that Leicester council received funds from to support the redevelopment of the local market. The fact this money is ring fenced inside an organisation for this purpose can be better, because if it falls back to general government, those funds can quickly disapear into other areas. The EU funding of these things could be considered to be like a locked away savings account (even if I do concede we don't get back the same level as we get in, but as a bigger economy in the EU that's to be expected).
bovril Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Having just been on Facebook, I can't help but feel Zuckerberg's lot are having a little hand in this again, as they've admitted to doing previously. On the 'trending' bit in the top right hand corner, I'm struggling to believe that the top 3 trending things are: There is no way in hell that those two things are trending more than the episode of GoT last night. I'm simply not buying it I noticed this too. Also noticed my microwave has started behaving strangely recently. Stay strong, comrades.
Darkon84 Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 I noticed this too. Also noticed my microwave has started behaving strangely recently. Stay strong, comrades. I found that once I stopped putting CDs in my microwave, it got better. Turns out that's not how to correctly 'burn' a CD. Who knew?!
Webbo Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 For those on the 'leave' side that go out of their way to insist that this referendum isn't about immigration, I'd be interested in whether they would prefer 1. Leave the EU and 'benefit' from 'getting our country back' economically but maintaining open borders or 2. Closed borders but we remain in the EU and the economic effect that it entails. Many of the leavers that are being vocal about their decision have tried their damnedest to avoid saying they don't want any more immigrants, spouting 'guesstimated' economic benefits as the major driver. To assume that we will be better off financially if we do leave is too much 'hit and hope' for me with very little basis. While Leavers will cite expert opinions as to why we will be better off, they seem quite happy to ignore expert opinions from those that say otherwise. My advice to anyone that is still unsure, is to vote stay for the time being. There will always be the opportunity to have another referendum in the future should things change, but once the divorce from the EU goes through, we will not be allowed back in again with the same privileges as we have now. Whatever you do, don't base your decision on immigration alone but disguise it as an economic one. I'd accept free movement as long as we weren't forced to pay benefits, especially to their family abroad. I'd pay the contribution. I'd just like our parliament to have supremacy on everything except trade, and our fishing grounds back. I could live with that. PS My money is on Teresa May for the next PM.
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