The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Nick]

A lot will depend on how the Scots vote they could easily think vote leave to get and win a Independence Referendum and join the EC by themselves.

 

What a mess that would cause re borders and the £ etc. 

 

 

Plus the amount of people moving themselves or their business premises to Scotland before the deadline!

[yorkie1999]

The brexiters have missed a trick.

 

We've gotta goooo

We've gotta goooo

Camerons a liar

Always tryin to terrify

Camerons a liar

na na na na na na na na na na na na na

[Alf Bentley]

I think that's unfair Alf, there is a genuine left wing argument, just because no one is running with it more suggests that they aren't really quite as liberal as they like to pretend. Boris and Gove are putting the argument across for the right, Farage I'm not sure where he sits. Where are the Left and the Liberals? In the pockets of big business, champagne socialists? Too scared to offer an alternative? If they think that the progressive vote is the Status Quo, then I think they might have reached saturation point.

 

 

I've never denied that there are genuine left-wing arguments for Brexit. I've been tempted by them. I've posted links to them on here.

 

Here are 2 of them (Paul Mason again on "Left Brexit but not yet"; plus Larry Elliott (Guardian Economics Editor), pro-Brexit:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/16/brexit-eu-referendum-boris-johnson-greece-tory

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/20/brexit-best-answer-to-dying-eurozone-eu-undemocratic-elite

 

I've also repeatedly bemoaned the lack of Left arguments on BOTH sides. The debate has been dominated by voices on the Right - and the Labour Party deserves a lot of blame for that. It will also deserve a lot of blame if working-class Labour voters win the vote for Brexit....quite a likely scenario (though I've really no idea which way it's going to go).

 

What I said was that the Brexit campaign was being LED by members of "the elite" with "a capitalist/neoliberal mindset", to use Oz's words. The only Labour voices on the Brexit side (apart from journalists like Elliott & Mason), people like Gisela Stuart & Kate Hoey, have been arguing a line similar to the Tories. That's a shame. There used to be Labour Left people, like Tony Benn, who argued a case for Left Brexit. Corbyn used to support that line. Whether he's a genuine or tactical convert to Remain, I don't know. Either way, neither he nor many of his front bench have played a prominent role on EITHER side until the last few days. Maybe they assume Remain will win anyway, and don't want to alienate working-class Brexit voters? If so, they may get a rude awakening. Maybe they reckon they can sit back and watch the Tories self-destruct in civil war? Again, they might be disappointed.....and the Tories will still be in power whoever wins the referendum. Labour's comparative silence on BOTH sides of the debate is a massive misjudgment - and a disgrace.

 

"Man of the people" Farage is a former public schoolboy and stockbroker who was a member of the Tory Party for years, but who left as it wasn't right-wing enough for him. He co-founded UKIP as a Eurosceptic, neo-liberal party to the right of the Tories. Where that party's politics are now is a good question, as it is attracting many Labour voters, not only with anti-EU, anti-immigration rhetoric, but also with populist policies on the NHS etc. I'd say that it is a chaotic, opportunistic nationalist-populist party in its rhetoric. What it would do if it were ever in power is unclear. My guess is that it would become more nationalistic and anti-immigrant, and more populist, advocating tax cuts and blaming "the elite" or immigrants for poor public services. But it largely exists to channel - and to hoodwink - struggling people with genuine grievances, not as a party to help them or with a serious plan for power.

[foxy boxing]

the clock is ticking, has the doomsday clock almost reached midnight yet?

[Sharpe's Fox]

As Alf says if you're a left leaning mind and still undecided you can't go wrong with reading what Tony Benn, an absolute giant of a statesman and rival of Churchill as the greatest British orator of the century, thought of the EU. Here's some of my highlights:

"This huge Commission building in Brussels, in the shape of a cross, is absolutely un-British. I felt as if I were going as a slave to Rome; the whole relationship was wrong. Here was I, an elected man who could be removed, doing a job, and here were these people with more power than I had and no accountability to anybody...My visit confirmed in a practical way all my suspicions that this would be the decapitation of British democracy without any countervailing advantage, and the British people, quite rightly, wouldn't accept it. There is no real benefit for Britain."

"We have confused the real issue of parliamentary democracy, for already there has been a fundamental change. The power of electors over their law-makers has gone, the power of MPs over Ministers has gone, the role of Ministers has changed. The real case for entry has never been spelled out, which is that there should be a fully federal Europe in which we become a province. It hasn't been spelled out because people would never accept it. We are at the moment on a federal escalator, moving as we talk, going towards a federal objective we do not wish to reach. In practice, Britain will be governed by a European coalition government that we cannot change, dedicated to a capitalist or market economy theology. This policy is to be sold to us by projecting an unjustified optimism about the Community, and an unjustified pessimism about the United Kingdom, designed to frighten us in. Jim quoted Benjamin Franklin, so let me do the same: "He who would give up essential liberty for a little temporary security deserves neither safety nor liberty." The Common Market will break up the UK because there will be no valid argument against an independent Scotland, with its own Ministers and Commissioner, enjoying Common Market membership. We shall be choosing between the unity of the UK and the unity of the EEC. It will impose appalling strains on the Labour movement...I believe that we want independence and democratic self-government, and I hope the Cabinet in due course will think again."

"The House will forgive me for quoting five democratic questions that I have developed during my life. If one meets a powerful person--Rupert Murdoch, perhaps, or Joe Stalin or Hitler--one can ask five questions:

What power do you have?

Where did you get it?

In whose interests do you exercise it?

To whom are you accountable?

And how can we get rid of you?

Anyone who cannot answer the last of those questions does not live in a democratic system."

[bovril]

If people think the British public would be better served outside the EU then fine, vote out. Hell, even if you're voting just to stop immigration, at least it's a position. But I find it absolutely baffling that people would vote out just to 'smash the system' / 'fvck over Cameron'. As for OzLeicester's post about fvcking over the capitalist mindset... this is satire no?

[SpacedX]

I've got a feeling leave could win again now. Didn't ukip get 4 million votes last year? My theory is that half of Conservative and labour voters will vote on leave. And all the ukip voters will get leave over the line

Ukip voters will walk across broken glass to cast their vote. The danger to Remain is voter apathy in my opinion, which is less likely to afflict supporters of the Leave campaign.

[Strokes]

I've never denied that there are genuine left-wing arguments for Brexit. I've been tempted by them. I've posted links to them on here.

 

Here are 2 of them (Paul Mason again on "Left Brexit but not yet"; plus Larry Elliott (Guardian Economics Editor), pro-Brexit:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/16/brexit-eu-referendum-boris-johnson-greece-tory

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/20/brexit-best-answer-to-dying-eurozone-eu-undemocratic-elite

 

I've also repeatedly bemoaned the lack of Left arguments on BOTH sides. The debate has been dominated by voices on the Right - and the Labour Party deserves a lot of blame for that. It will also deserve a lot of blame if working-class Labour voters win the vote for Brexit....quite a likely scenario (though I've really no idea which way it's going to go).

 

What I said was that the Brexit campaign was being LED by members of "the elite" with "a capitalist/neoliberal mindset", to use Oz's words. The only Labour voices on the Brexit side (apart from journalists like Elliott & Mason), people like Gisela Stuart & Kate Hoey, have been arguing a line similar to the Tories. That's a shame. There used to be Labour Left people, like Tony Benn, who argued a case for Left Brexit. Corbyn used to support that line. Whether he's a genuine or tactical convert to Remain, I don't know. Either way, neither he nor many of his front bench have played a prominent role on EITHER side until the last few days. Maybe they assume Remain will win anyway, and don't want to alienate working-class Brexit voters? If so, they may get a rude awakening. Maybe they reckon they can sit back and watch the Tories self-destruct in civil war? Again, they might be disappointed.....and the Tories will still be in power whoever wins the referendum. Labour's comparative silence on BOTH sides of the debate is a massive misjudgment - and a disgrace.

 

"Man of the people" Farage is a former public schoolboy and stockbroker who was a member of the Tory Party for years, but who left as it wasn't right-wing enough for him. He co-founded UKIP as a Eurosceptic, neo-liberal party to the right of the Tories. Where that party's politics are now is a good question, as it is attracting many Labour voters, not only with anti-EU, anti-immigration rhetoric, but also with populist policies on the NHS etc. I'd say that it is a chaotic, opportunistic nationalist-populist party in its rhetoric. What it would do if it were ever in power is unclear. My guess is that it would become more nationalistic and anti-immigrant, and more populist, advocating tax cuts and blaming "the elite" or immigrants for poor public services. But it largely exists to channel - and to hoodwink - struggling people with genuine grievances, not as a party to help them or with a serious plan for power.

I'm sorry im being confrontational Alf, I'm just annoyed as the left wing arguments are by far and away the best (even if I don't wholly support them), sound points we have available and nobody seems to be taking up on them. I feel like they are hiding in the shadows somewhere as the debate keeps getting dragged into migrant - race rows. It worries me that either those on the left don't see them, or won't acknowledge them. I think I'm going to disappear for a long weekend on Friday and just chill, whatever the result. I'be invested too much emotion in this.

[MrSpaM]

The only information I've gathered from this whole thing is

 

1. Everybody is a liar

2. Nobody knows what's going to happen whether we vote in or out

3. Whatever is decided, immigration is going to stay exactly the same as it already is

4. Whichever way we vote it's going to cost the country billions

 

I'm wondering why our own parliament can't even be honest with the British people about the ramifications of an in or out vote

 

We just need it in black and white, this is what's going to happen if we vote in, and this is what's going to happen if we vote out

 

It's the most important thing our country has had to decide on in the past god know how many years and all or government seem to be interested in is making up stories on either side, the only benefit being their own personal gain

 

I literally have no idea which way to vote, the whole campaign has been a complete shambles from start to finish

[Strokes]

The only information I've gathered from this whole thing is

 

1. Everybody is a liar

2. Nobody knows what's going to happen whether we vote in or out

3. Whatever is decided, immigration is going to stay exactly the same as it already is

 

I'm wondering why our own parliament can't even be honest with the British people about the ramifications of an in or out vote

 

We just need it in black and white, this is what's going to happen if we vote in, and this is what's going to happen if we vote out

 

It's the most important thing our country has had to decide on in the past god know how many years and all or government seem to be interested in is making up stories on either side, the only benefit being their own personal gain

 

I literally have no idea which way to vote, the whole campaign has been a complete shambles from start to finish

Immigration won't stay the same, the number just may not decrease. It's about getting labour in where we have skills shortages and being able to plan so we don't have issues with school places etc. Which currently we can't do.

[Guest MattP]

Bad news, mate. The elite are leading BOTH sides. Brexit would just involve the capitalist/neo-liberal mindset being applied in a different, less restrained manner - and the working class being pissed on in a different way....probably much more piss.

 

Are Gove, IDS, Boris & Farage really leading opponents of the capitalist/neo-liberal mindset, caring advocates for the working class and rebels from the street opposing the elite?!? 

 

Here's Paul Mason on why "Brexit is a fake revolt - working-class culture is being hijacked to help the elite"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/brexit-fake-revolt-eu-working-class-culture-hijacked-help-elite

 

I agree with this, it's about time any major political party in this country stopped trying to pretend they are a party of the people and not one who has the interests of the neo-liberal/capitalist elite at heart.

 

It's a shame Paul Mason couldn't even bring himself to back Brexit though as a long time supporter of it, another one who only seems to want it on his own terms.

 

Plus the amount of people moving themselves or their business premises to Scotland before the deadline!

 

This is a joke I presume?

 

Why is any business going to move to Scotland? They are ran by a government that had it got it's own way would now be running a deficit of nearly 10% of GDP on it's official white paper figures, off the top of my head I think only Greece has a higher one, they would be having to implement either huge tax rises or massive austerity costs in order to cover it. Plus if we do vote to leave they are going to apparantly do this anyway! Run off and join the most failing currency on the continent and I don't think anyone needs to show you how most smaller economies joining the Euro have done in recent years.

 

I'm sorry im being confrontational Alf, I'm just annoyed as the left wing arguments are by far and away the best (even if I don't wholly support them), sound points we have available and nobody seems to be taking up on them. I feel like they are hiding in the shadows somewhere as the debate keeps getting dragged into migrant - race rows. It worries me that either those on the left don't see them, or won't acknowledge them. I think I'm going to disappear for a long weekend on Friday and just chill, whatever the result. I'be invested too much emotion in this.

 

I think the problem here is ideology.

 

They know deep down the EU causes wage compression, they know deep down we can't absolve or really plan seriously for net migration of 300,000+ a year but the ideology in the current climate having to support these values whatever the consequences IMO have now come to the fore instead of sharing a platform with people they don't like, I'm convinced had there been no great UKIP/Immigration part  to this debate Corbyn and many others on the Labour and Green party side would have been delighted to back Brexit and take a prominant role campaigning for it.

 

 

As an aside, Jihadist hate Anjem Choudary has come out for remain as the European Union gives him better protection under the human rights act - https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1321570/jihadist-preacher-anjem-choudary-backs-remain-because-eu-stops-unfair-deportations/

[bovril]

As an aside, Jihadist hate Anjem Choudary has come out for remain as the European Union gives him better protection under the human rights act - https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1321570/jihadist-preacher-anjem-choudary-backs-remain-because-eu-stops-unfair-deportations/

 

 

Top trolling, Mr Choudary.

[Strokes]

I agree with this, it's about time any major political party in this country stopped trying to pretend they are a party of the people and not one who has the interests of the neo-liberal/capitalist elite at heart.

 

It's a shame Paul Mason couldn't even bring himself to back Brexit though as a long time supporter of it, another one who only seems to want it on his own terms.

 

 

This is a joke I presume?

 

Why is any business going to move to Scotland? They are ran by a government that had it got it's own way would now be running a deficit of nearly 10% of GDP on it's official white paper figures, off the top of my head I think only Greece has a higher one, they would be having to implement either huge tax rises or massive austerity costs in order to cover it. Plus if we do vote to leave they are going to apparantly do this anyway! Run off and join the most failing currency on the continent and I don't think anyone needs to show you how most smaller economies joining the Euro have done in recent years.

 

 

I think the problem here is ideology.

 

They know deep down the EU causes wage compression, they know deep down we can't absolve or really plan seriously for net migration of 300,000+ a year but the ideology in the current climate having to support these values whatever the consequences IMO have now come to the fore instead of sharing a platform with people they don't like, I'm convinced had there been no great UKIP/Immigration part  to this debate Corbyn and many others on the Labour and Green party side would have been delighted to back Brexit and take a prominant role campaigning for it.

 

 

As an aside, Jihadist hate Anjem Choudary has come out for remain as the European Union gives him better protection under the human rights act - https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1321570/jihadist-preacher-anjem-choudary-backs-remain-because-eu-stops-unfair-deportations/

It reminds me of people who don't want England to win because Danny drinkwater wasn't selected.

I wonder if they will add Anjem Choudary to list of remainers we seen earlier?

[Guest MattP]

It reminds me of people who don't want England to win because Danny drinkwater wasn't selected.

I wonder if they will add Anjem Choudary to list of remainers we seen earlier?

 

In the interest of balance it would be unfair not to.

[Strokes]

In the interest of balance it would be unfair not to.

And that list also needs more diversity on it imho.

[Jon the Hat]

The only information I've gathered from this whole thing is

 

1. Everybody is a liar

2. Nobody knows what's going to happen whether we vote in or out

3. Whatever is decided, immigration is going to stay exactly the same as it already is

4. Whichever way we vote it's going to cost the country billions

 

I'm wondering why our own parliament can't even be honest with the British people about the ramifications of an in or out vote

 

We just need it in black and white, this is what's going to happen if we vote in, and this is what's going to happen if we vote out

 

It's the most important thing our country has had to decide on in the past god know how many years and all or government seem to be interested in is making up stories on either side, the only benefit being their own personal gain

 

I literally have no idea which way to vote, the whole campaign has been a complete shambles from start to finish

There aren't any FACTS here; There are lots of opinions, forecasts (which by the way mainly say we will be better off than now in or out) and conjecture. What there isn't is facts.

[Dodgy Bob]

Immigration won't stay the same, the number just may not decrease. It's about getting labour in where we have skills shortages and being able to plan so we don't have issues with school places etc. Which currently we can't do.

We should be perfectly capable of forecasting and planning for immigration. The problems with school places etc are due to poorly executed planning within a context of institutional dysfunction, not because of immigrants. Immigrants or no immigrants, the same problems will repeat.

[Countryfox]

Come on you lot keep those posts coming cus you've not got much longer now ! ...    what will you do after the vote .....  

 

Have been watching and reading all the 'battles' going on (no prisoners taken thats for sure !) ...   I will still vote out but think remain will win cus of all the scaremongering going on ...    shame, as if we stay in we can all jump off the cliff together with the rest of Europe ...     hang on a minute ! ..   am I scaremongering ??

[MrSpaM]

There aren't any FACTS here; There are lots of opinions, forecasts (which by the way mainly say we will be better off than now in or out) and conjecture. What there isn't is facts.

 

So the only forecasts are predicting well be better off either way?!?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

The only information I've gathered from this whole thing is

 

1. Everybody is a liar

2. Nobody knows what's going to happen whether we vote in or out

3. Whatever is decided, immigration is going to stay exactly the same as it already is

4. Whichever way we vote it's going to cost the country billions

 

I'm wondering why our own parliament can't even be honest with the British people about the ramifications of an in or out vote

 

We just need it in black and white, this is what's going to happen if we vote in, and this is what's going to happen if we vote out

 

It's the most important thing our country has had to decide on in the past god know how many years and all or government seem to be interested in is making up stories on either side, the only benefit being their own personal gain

 

I literally have no idea which way to vote, the whole campaign has been a complete shambles from start to finish

I can imagine this is a common held thought for a lot of people, but there are stark and worrying observations from it;

1.) You want a black and white, certain argument to an issue that is all shades of grey and involves predicting the future. No one can be fully certain. There is no one golden answer and a big part of either option being a broad success would be down to decisions taken afterwards and like in all areas of life, there'll be winners and losers for both sides of the argument.

2.) People seem to be asking for something to tell them how to vote - rather than take in various factors and come to their own conclusion based on a personal position.

However, one thing I would point out to you is that your comments suggests you have a risk averse profile, so you probably need to vote on the basis on what you feel would be the less riskier option personal to you.

Now I could have easily qualified that to a 'Remain' vote given it would be easy to equate the 'status quo' is less risky there would be a lot less things open to change in that event, however a staunch Leaver would point to the fact that staying in the EU is actually the more risky thing to do and I don't wish to push a side here - I would much prefer you to find your own answer that you're comfortable with.

So as I've touched on, make the decision on a personal position - think what either side might mean for your job, the things you like to do, the things you buy, yours and your families aspirations - and I'm sure you will feel a lot better about whatever decision you will come to.

[MrSpaM]

I can imagine this is a common held thought for a lot of people, but there are stark and worrying observations from it;

1.) You want a black and white, certain argument to an issue that is all shades of grey and involves predicting the future. No one can be fully certain. There is no one golden answer and a big part of either option being a broad success would be down to decisions taken afterwards and like in all areas of life, there'll be winners and losers for both sides of the argument.

2.) People seem to be asking for something to tell them how to vote - rather than take in various factors and come to their own conclusion based on a personal position.

However, one thing I would point out to you is that your comments suggests you have a risk averse profile, so you probably need to vote on the basis on what you feel would be the less riskier option personal to you.

Now I could have easily qualified that to a 'Remain' vote given it would be easy to equate the 'status quo' is less risky there would be a lot less things open to change in that event, however a staunch Leaver would point to the fact that staying in the EU is actually the more risky thing to do and I don't wish to push a side here - I would much prefer you to find your own answer that you're comfortable with.

So as I've touched on, make the decision on a personal position - think what either side might mean for your job, the things you like to do, the things you buy, yours and your families aspirations - and I'm sure you will feel a lot better about whatever decision you will come to.

 

I'm not asking for a black and white

 

I'm asking for some benefits to be put forward from either side that aren't instantly labelled preposterous by the opposition

 

I, like many people, are finding it extremely difficult to vote on something when we are constantly being told whichever way we vote the consequences will be catastrophic for the country in the long run

[DJ Barry Hammond]

I'm not asking for a black and white

 

I'm asking for some benefits to be put forward from either side that aren't instantly labelled preposterous by the opposition

 

I, like many people, are finding it extremely difficult to vote on something when we are constantly being told whichever way we vote the consequences will be catastrophic for the country in the long run

But I'm afraid, you can't expect that - politics is essentially a war of ideas. You have your generals, your slogans, your colours and of course endless propaganda. This just seems a lot worse because it's a binary decision.

But as i say, you can take them out of it and base it on your own position. So for example look at your job and ask yourself how it might effect it - who supplies your employer, who does it do business to, etc.

[Guest MattP]

I'm a very busy for the next couple of days so this will probably by the last post until the counting starts tomorrow night. Whatever happens Friday, I hope the country isn't as nasty and divided as Scotland has been since 2014.

 

DJ Barry Hammond had a idea that the prominent posters could have a debate a couple of days ago, something we didn;t have time to do but I do feel we could all put a sort of short closing statement on summerising why they are voting they way they are, here is mine.

 

 

Tomorrow I will vote to leave the European Union and in doing so I hope it will leave Britain in a place to connect with a wider World and disconnect itself from an undemocratic, bureaucratically ridden nightmare that has continually proved to be incapable of reform.

 

For me the main issue of the referendum has become whether you believe in the independent nation state or not, sovereignty to me has never been something that can be shared or pooled amongst nations and unlike the European Union, our democracy has stood the test of time from Magna Carta to Habeas Corpus.

 

We have often showed the world what a free people could achieve if they were allowed to govern themselves. The country you come from established trial by jury in the modern world, we set up the first free parliament, you elected governments that ensured no-one could be detained on the orders of the state without a fair trial, they established free education for all, they established the National Health Service and the responsibility they have on these things has always ensured Britain has elected different governments over time and never resorted into being a one party state. Something every vibrant democracy needs.

 

It didn’t affect us directly, but the worst behaviour of the European Union has come in its attitude towards Southern Europe, the ideology of the Eurozone Currency was forced onto countries despite people inside the project knowing it was going to have a devastating effect on the economies, youth unemployment is at over 50% in Greece, it has also reached appalling levels in Italy and Spain, it has created a lost generation of young people just so a European Central Bank could be created, an organisation which is staffed by bankers many of whom were involved in the 2008 economic crash and wants to be independent of national governments and national economic policies. When the people of Greece protested against the austerity that was forced on them, their elected representatives were dragged to Strasbourg and threatened with bankruptcy unless they changed their policies that the people had voted for.

 

I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives and the laws we must all obey should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change. That’s a basic right every single person born in this land has had for hundreds of years and one we should fight until our deaths to keep instead of giving it away by putting a cross in a box under sinister threats from politicians who previously claimed we could thrive inside or outside the organisation.

 

Britain didn’t want Jean-Claude Juncker as the President of the European Commission, our Prime Minister didn’t want him, our elected MP’s didn’t want him, our elected MEP’s didn’t want him, and we voted against him and were defeated 26-2 with Hungary being our only ally, so we got him. That’s what you are voting for more of, people making decisions over your lives who you have never met, never voted for and often have no interest making decisions that is best for your country. We cannot get rid of him.

 

I wish Tony Benn had been alive today to campaign in this referendum as he wouldn’t have sold out on his principles unlike so many others, I’ll end this post on his wonderful question to the House of Commons at the time the whole project originally came about.

 

"The House will forgive me for quoting five democratic questions that I have developed during my life. If one meets a powerful person--Rupert Murdoch, perhaps, or Joe Stalin or Hitler--one can ask five questions:

What power do you have?
Where did you get it?
In whose interests do you exercise it?
To whom are you accountable?
And how can we get rid of you?

Anyone who cannot answer the last of those questions does not live in a democratic system."

 

Always, always make sure you live in most directly accountable democratic system you can, because you really won't want the alternative.

[Countryfox]

I'm not asking for a black and white

 

I'm asking for some benefits to be put forward from either side that aren't instantly labelled preposterous by the opposition

 

I, like many people, are finding it extremely difficult to vote on something when we are constantly being told whichever way we vote the consequences will be catastrophic for the country in the long run

 

You're going to have to get off that fence at some point ....    make your own mind up or speak to others whose opinion you value and there you go ...    I did both of those things and came to an easy decision.    I am not scared of the unknown and can't for one moment think we will be any worse off without being tied to group of countries that have gone off the rails.   We joined a common market many moons ago to help trade and give us more power globally ...   sadly that has turned into a bureaucratic monster that is now an anchor chain round our feet and wants to control everything we do. 

[Innovindil]

I'm not asking for a black and white

I'm asking for some benefits to be put forward from either side that aren't instantly labelled preposterous by the opposition

I, like many people, are finding it extremely difficult to vote on something when we are constantly being told whichever way we vote the consequences will be catastrophic for the country in the long run

Vote out.

Trust me, I'm an engineer.