The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Thracian]

Love how sadiq thinks quoting Martin Lewis the money saving expert, give supremacy over the economic debate

 

 

He should have been an Illusionist - cleverly contrived debating style but much of what he said had the substance of a meringue. 

[Beliall]

EU law expert responds as “industrial dishonesty” video goes viral

Leading EU law expert Professor Michael Dougan has added to his criticism of the referendum campaign’s “industrial dishonesty”, after a video featuring his thoughts drew millions of views online.

Professor Dougan, from the University of Liverpool’s Law School, analysed the central themes raised by both the Remain and Leave campaigns in a video that has clocked up more than two million views on Facebook since Friday, as well as almost 40,000 Youtube views and retweets from the likes of Billy Bragg and Alastair Campbell.

Responding to criticism that he hadn’t addressed the issue of immigration, Professor Dougan said: “Thanks to those who have written asking about immigration – a topic I had intended to cover in my lecture but I ran out of time and had to rush to an incomplete conclusion.  Here is what I had intended to say.  I hope you find it interesting and / or useful.

– a significant majority of the foreign nationals living in the UK (2/3 at the last national census), and over half the net immigration each year, come from outside the EU.  That is almost entirely within our own domestic competence and power – we seem to be good at immigration, without needing any help from the EU.

– as regards those EU nationals who come to the UK: it is completely dishonest of prominent Leave campaigners repeatedly to claim that there is some sort of unconditional right to move to and settle in another Member State.  We all have a right to circulate – that is the basis on which, e.g. we go on holiday to Spain and France.  But when it comes to settling in another country, there are three main categories of right under EU law: for the economically active (ie in work and paying taxes); for students (eg enrolled at university and thus paying tuition fees); and for those wealthy enough to look after themselves and their families without relying on public benefits.  There is no right to “benefit tourism” under EU law.

– Against that background, it is unsurprising to find that – according to all the objective social science research – EU migrants are significantly more likely to be younger, better qualified and economically active; they pay far more into the country in work and taxes than they take out in public benefits or services.

– When it comes to the particular situation of Eastern European migrants, we are rarely reminded of the fact that the UK was one of only three Member States (the others being Ireland and Sweden) that chose not to impose transitional restrictions on the rights to free movement of new EU citizens during the “Big Bang” enlargement of 2004.  We chose to let these people come here as we did; no one forced us to and we could have decided otherwise.  Small wonder that many other Europeans regard the UK debate as rather hypocritical.

– And nor should we forget that free movement is a two way street.  Massive numbers of UK nationals travel for pleasure, study and work around the EU – taking advantage of all the benefits and convenience and protection EU law offers.  Around 2 million UK nationals have also settled in other Member States – and the objective social science research suggests that those migrants are more likely to be economically inactive, ie they are not actively contributing through work and taxes to their host society.  Again – small wonder other Europeans think there is a real double standard at work in the UK debate.

– It is also worth recalling that the accession of future Member States requires the unanimous agreement of the 28 governments plus their national ratification processes.  The only large applicant is Turkey – and there is no realistic prospect of Turkey joining the EU within any of our lifetimes – not least since several countries have indicated that they would hold national referenda on any Turkish deal, obviously in the expectation that their populations would overwhelmingly reject it.”

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/20/eu-law-expert-responds-industrial-dishonesty-video-goes-viral/

[Strokes]

What do the remainers think to the claim that the EU is undermining NATO, it's not an argument I had heard before or even thought of. Does it have any credibility?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

What do the remainers think to the claim that the EU is undermining NATO, it's not an argument I had heard before or even thought of. Does it have any credibility?

Having looked at the argument on Vote Leave's website, the suggestion seems to revolve around the question of an EU Army.

Now the argument is a bit spurious for me. There's lots of things in politics that can get touted, but I don't think there's any real appetite for an EU Army on the whole and certainly not in this country so it's unlikely to happen (or if it did say in 30 years time, that'd be a thing where we'd say we're having no part of it)

The other thing I'd question is whether this is an area that is really going to decide your vote? Defence of the realm has to be contracted out to those in power really, we're in no positon to judge. For example, I'd be completely opposed to a referendum on trident - a country cannot have that sort of decision weighing on its conscience.

In terms of NATO, I believe it's always been naturally linked with the EU - in part because a lot of EU countries are part of it and it shares common policy areas so it'd be strange for it to be undermined. NATO's own 'spin' on that is here; http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_49217.htm

[Lionator]

Are we expecting that a lot of the 'undecided' people will play safe and vote remain on the day?

[Carl the Llama]

Considering NATO have a big fuch off headquarters building on the Zaventem edge of Brussels I'd say it's fairly likely there's a lot of cooperation between the 2 organisations and I've always considered them as pretty complimentary entities.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Are we expecting that a lot of the 'undecided' people will play safe and vote remain on the day?

I think the undecided will flop one way or another in a decisive manor, that will hopefully provide a margin. 51/49 would be the worst result possible (either way).

[The Railway Man]

Watching now, how the hell did this bloke Sadiqq Khan get elected Mayor of London? What a bumbling idiot.

[ozleicester]

Chose not to vote in this as i am not going to be affected, however i hope the LEAVE side wins. 

 

Anything that fvcks over the capitalist - NeoLiberal mindset that currently pisses all over the working class has got to be a good thing, it saddens me that there is so much racism and xenophobia tucked in with the leavers but, itll be good to see the elite squirm if it goes against them.

[GingerrrFox]

I'm voting leave.

The main reason. Boris and the rest of the Leave support have campaigned for positive change. Nobody knows what will happen if we leave and sure it's a risk but it feels like an opportunity to make a difference.

All I have heard from Remain is negative attempts to shoot down Leave at every turn, with no reasoning as to why the EU makes us stronger. Remain are basically saying better the devil you know and the status quo is good for us. Well it's not really. It's not really good at all. If the only way we can inspire and bring about change is through leave then I'm out.

[The Railway Man]

I'm voting leave.

The main reason. Boris and the rest of the Leave support have campaigned for positive change. Nobody knows what will happen if we leave and sure it's a risk but it feels like an opportunity to make a difference.

All I have heard from Remain is negative attempts to shoot down Leave at every turn, with no reasoning as to why the EU makes us stronger. Remain are basically saying better the devil you know and the status quo is good for us. Well it's not really. It's not really good at all. If the only way we can inspire and bring about change is through leave then I'm out.

 

It was pretty much the same tonight, the three remainers on stage just throwing jibes at Boris and negativity about how bad everyhting is going to be if we dare vote to leave.

[Rincewind]

Its gonna be bad for the multimillion corporations that is why they and banks have backed stay.

[Carl the Llama]

I'm voting leave.

The main reason. Boris and the rest of the Leave support have campaigned for positive change. Nobody knows what will happen if we leave and sure it's a risk but it feels like an opportunity to make a difference.

All I have heard from Remain is negative attempts to shoot down Leave at every turn, with no reasoning as to why the EU makes us stronger. Remain are basically saying better the devil you know and the status quo is good for us. Well it's not really. It's not really good at all. If the only way we can inspire and bring about change is through leave then I'm out.

Is that all you've heard?  I feel like this thread's done a good job of dispelling the falsehoods behind both campaigns and highlighting the benefits for both staying or leaving.

 

At the end of the day the biggest embellishments of the truth have been - in my opinion - committed by the Brexiters telling us how Turkey's going to flood the UK with uncontrolled migration while the NHS collapses under lack of funding thanks to the money being poured into a broken union which exerts undemocratic control over our very way of life.  To then read people bemoaning the remain side's "project fear" really does boggle the mind when there have been so many posts in here explaining how we benefit from trade deals and freedom of movement laws which enrich the supply of working professionals contributing to the country's GDP and paying their taxes having entered this country through controlled borders because our government chose not to participate in the Schengen treaty area as anyone who has been abroad and therefore had to show their passport to somebody on their way out can attest to.

 

 

Its gonna be bad for the multimillion corporations that is why they and banks have backed stay.

Because large companies tend to be concerned when the economy of a region they've invested capital into shrinks and the local currency flounders for a period before we enter the unknown.  Of course somebody focused purely on short-term economic gains is going to vote to stay.

[Strokes]

Is that all you've heard? I feel like this thread's done a good job of dispelling the falsehoods behind both campaigns and highlighting the benefits for both staying or leaving.

At the end of the day the biggest embellishments of the truth have been - in my opinion - committed by the Brexiters telling us how Turkey's going to flood the UK with uncontrolled migration while the NHS collapses under lack of funding thanks to the money being poured into a broken union which exerts undemocratic control over our very way of life. To then read people bemoaning the remain side's "project fear" really does boggle the mind when there have been so many posts in here explaining how we benefit from trade deals and freedom of movement laws which enrich the supply of working professionals contributing to the country's GDP and paying their taxes having entered this country through controlled borders because our government chose not to participate in the Schengen treaty area as anyone who has been abroad and therefore had to show their passport to somebody on their way out can attest to.

Because large companies tend to be concerned when the economy of a region they've invested capital into shrinks and the local currency flounders for a period before we enter the unknown. Of course somebody focused purely on short-term economic gains is going to vote to stay.

Errr I think the whole turkey debate is more about where the EU border is moved to than the NHS. Turkey seem quite adamant, that they are working towards a deal to join the EU in the not to distant future.

[Steven]

Yvette Cooper receives Twitter death threat against family members

Threat to ‘kill your kids and grandkids’ was tweeted to Labour MP following her campaigning for the remain camp

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/22/yvette-cooper-receives-death-threat-online-against-family

[Jon the Hat]

Yvette Cooper receives Twitter death threat against family members

Threat to ‘kill your kids and grandkids’ was tweeted to Labour MP following her campaigning for the remain camp

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/22/yvette-cooper-receives-death-threat-online-against-family

 

There are idiots on twitter?  Who knew?

 

Am I the only one who thinks the twats on the leave side are more than outweighed by the dismayed liberal elite on the remain side who seem to be determined to label anyone who votes out as an idiot or a bigot?

[GaelicFox]

I've read this thread occasionally over the last few weeks, and have come to the conclusion that:

a) I don't give a shit what the result is

b) I haven't got the time, passion or energy to contribute

c) The result makes no odds to me whatsoever

I'll continue to live my sheltered life in the soft underbelly of white middle class Buckinghamshire, and make the best I can of whatever hand I'm dealt. Too much moaning, blaming, fear, paranoia and negative campaigning for my liking.

I'll probably vote remain because my grandfather fought in the war blah, blah, blah, but whatever the outcome, it's ultimately down to me to take personal responsibility for my life and the decisions I make.

This referendum will be next weeks chip paper soon, and then they'll be another mass debate about some other external factors that people let influence and dictate their lives.

Maybe I'm just selfish but I choose only to control what I can control and avoid the noise, interference and hysteria that surrounds me. I hope you all get the outcome you want, but it pains me to see some people almost handing over control of ther own destiny and well being to politicians.

In the words of William H. Johnsen: "If it's to be, it's up to me"....

Thank god for trust funds hey buddy

[GaelicFox]

There are idiots on twitter?  Who knew?

 

Am I the only one who thinks the twats on the leave side are more than outweighed by the dismayed liberal elite on the remain side who seem to be determined to label anyone who votes out as an idiot or a bigot?

I feel the same ... That sanctimonious "big government" we know better than you attitude just doesn't hold in 2016 , makes them look lick Cvnts

[GaelicFox]

Watching now, how the hell did this bloke Sadiqq Khan get elected Mayor of London? What a bumbling idiot.

Because he Khan .... Innit !

[Alf Bentley]

Chose not to vote in this as i am not going to be affected, however i hope the LEAVE side wins. 

 

Anything that fvcks over the capitalist - NeoLiberal mindset that currently pisses all over the working class has got to be a good thing, it saddens me that there is so much racism and xenophobia tucked in with the leavers but, itll be good to see the elite squirm if it goes against them.

 

 

Pssst! Oz!

 

Bad news, mate. The elite are leading BOTH sides. Brexit would just involve the capitalist/neo-liberal mindset being applied in a different, less restrained manner - and the working class being pissed on in a different way....probably much more piss.

 

Are Gove, IDS, Boris & Farage really leading opponents of the capitalist/neo-liberal mindset, caring advocates for the working class and rebels from the street opposing the elite?!? 

 

Here's Paul Mason on why "Brexit is a fake revolt - working-class culture is being hijacked to help the elite"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/brexit-fake-revolt-eu-working-class-culture-hijacked-help-elite

[Strokes]

Pssst! Oz!

 

Bad news, mate. The elite are leading BOTH sides. Brexit would just involve the capitalist/neo-liberal mindset being applied in a different, less restrained manner - and the working class being pissed on in a different way....probably much more piss.

 

Are Gove, IDS, Boris & Farage really leading opponents of the capitalist/neo-liberal mindset, caring advocates for the working class and rebels from the street opposing the elite?!? 

 

Here's Paul Mason on why "Brexit is a fake revolt - working-class culture is being hijacked to help the elite"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/brexit-fake-revolt-eu-working-class-culture-hijacked-help-elite

I think that's unfair Alf, there is a genuine left wing argument, just because no one is running with it more suggests that they aren't really quite as liberal as they like to pretend. Boris and Gove are putting the argument across for the right, Farage I'm not sure where he sits. Where are the Left and the Liberals? In the pockets of big business, champagne socialists? Too scared to offer an alternative? If they think that the progressive vote is the Status Quo, then I think they might have reached saturation point.

[norwichfox]

Are we expecting that a lot of the 'undecided' people will play safe and vote remain on the day?

I was floating but firmly voting to leave....in the hope that it contributes toward fcuking Cameron and his vile cronies.

[Strokes]

I was floating but firmly voting to leave....in the hope that it contributes toward fcuking Cameron and his vile cronies.

It will.

[apple987]

I've got a feeling leave could win again now. Didn't ukip get 4 million votes last year? My theory is that half of Conservative and labour voters will vote on leave. And all the ukip voters will get leave over the line

[davieG]

A lot will depend on how the Scots vote they could easily think vote leave to get and win a Independence Referendum and join the EC by themselves.

 

What a mess that would cause re borders and the £ etc.