The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Footballwipe]

You know it makes the Leave side look pathetic when they get their excuses in early. "Well if we lose then it's definitely a fix, the votes will have gone missing and something fishy will have gone on." If it doesn't go our way it's rigged, is basically the tone there. It's tiresome.

 

In terms of the remain side, classic and cynical to leave the cuts and threats to the last minute, of course, but isn't that their advantage? Essentially they have the two people who will have to deal with the aftermath of any vote (not looking at any snap elections at the moment) so they're in the best position to say what they'll do under such circumstances?

 

Eight days to go until we start the post-vote mud slinging. Like everyone else I've literally no idea the way it'll go. I'm finding the leave camp noisier on social media, and speaking to colleagues they say a lot of their family will be voting leave, so it's definitely gaining the momentum.

 

There have been some eloquent and really informative arguments on both sides in various media outlets and blogs, it's such a shame it has been overshadowed by the shirll noise coming out of both sides.

[Dodgy Bob]

Again, warning of budget cuts is just a perfectly logical expansion on the expected economic effects of leaving. You can't intentionally plunge the country into recession and not expect there to be serious consequences. Osborne has already made a lot of cuts and implemented a lot of stealth taxes and public finances still aren't in great shape. A hammer blow to the economy now would be a disaster and will inevitably lead to tax rises.

Why is everything like this being labeled a "scare tactic"? Are brexiters seriously going to close their eyes, put their fingers in their ears and just pretend that economic consequences don't exist? We're already seeing them in the financial markets. Some of the best financial analysts in the world are withdrawing billions from the market in fear of a Brexit. Everybody's pension has already taken a hammering because of this. The pound is looking pathetic already. Do we really, seriously want to go down this road of intentionally making ourselves poor here?

[Steven]

Again, warning of budget cuts is just a perfectly logical expansion on the expected economic effects of leaving. You can't intentionally plunge the country into recession and not expect there to be serious consequences. Osborne has already made a lot of cuts and implemented a lot of stealth taxes and public finances still aren't in great shape. A hammer blow to the economy now would be a disaster and will inevitably lead to tax rises.

Why is everything like this being labeled a "scare tactic"? Are brexiters seriously going to close their eyes, put their fingers in their ears and just pretend that economic consequences don't exist? We're already seeing them in the financial markets. Some of the best financial analysts in the world are withdrawing billions from the market in fear of a Brexit. Everybody's pension has already taken a hammering because of this. The pound is looking pathetic already. Do we really, seriously want to go down this road of intentionally making ourselves poor here?

Quite. Let everyone who supports a Brexit pay extra tax.

[Webbo]

Quite. Let everyone who supports a Brexit pay extra tax.

Fair enough and if we stay in all remain supporters can pay our EU contributions.

[Vlad the Fox]

Short term effects of leaving or staying shouldn't be the focus for making a decision, if we chose to leave we may suffer a mild recession but long term may see growth far outstripping that of if we remain. It's for people to look and make there decision on how they interpret the information but they need to be looking ahead, the next 5, 10, 20 years.

For me six months ago I would have gone and blindly voted remain, but having researched a little it I'm leaning towards leave. The idea born out of the war when the world was a very different place, technological advancements have changed the world, not forgetting that Britain was a great trading nation. We also won't be short of expertise in science, technology, industry and business, we have a lot going for us that I can't see the collapse people are predicting. It's now starting to look outdated, it's too big and economies unbalanced with many conflicting interests and as a result it's starting to show signs of failing, appearing too cumbersome to change direction.

There's been some great debate here on here from both sides and I've learnt a lot from it, and while I'm trying to keep an open im still waiting for remain to hit me with a good argument that strikes a chord with me. Scaremongering and hitting me with half truths and lies won't work, I know both sides are doing it but I've found more away from that to support leave than remain.

[Thracian]

Quite. Let everyone who supports a Brexit pay extra tax.

 

 

 

And a constant rebate (just for the Brexiteers) when we show an increase on our trading levels within the EU?  Plus perhaps recognition in the honours list in appreciation!   

[Thracian]

You know it makes the Leave side look pathetic when they get their excuses in early. "Well if we lose then it's definitely a fix, the votes will have gone missing and something fishy will have gone on." If it doesn't go our way it's rigged, is basically the tone there. It's tiresome.

 

In terms of the remain side, classic and cynical to leave the cuts and threats to the last minute, of course, but isn't that their advantage? Essentially they have the two people who will have to deal with the aftermath of any vote (not looking at any snap elections at the moment) so they're in the best position to say what they'll do under such circumstances?

 

Eight days to go until we start the post-vote mud slinging. Like everyone else I've literally no idea the way it'll go. I'm finding the leave camp noisier on social media, and speaking to colleagues they say a lot of their family will be voting leave, so it's definitely gaining the momentum.

 

There have been some eloquent and really informative arguments on both sides in various media outlets and blogs, it's such a shame it has been overshadowed by the shirll noise coming out of both sides.

 

 

I'd find it hard to trust today's politicians to see us safely across a deserted one-way street. 

[Steven]

And a constant rebate (just for the Brexiteers) when we show an increase on our trading levels within the EU? Plus perhaps recognition in the honours list in appreciation!

Extra help for failing to grasp the economic realities of being outside the largest economy in the World. The EU. Why would anyone give up their jobs in the EU to allow the UK to take jobs away? Why would anyone invest in the UK without having access to the Single Market.

There is no future for bright, educated, aspiring individuals in a Britain that needlessly casts itself aside from other nations.

Will the last person leaving the UK please turn out the light.

[Strokes]

Extra help for failing to grasp the economic realities of being outside the largest economy in the World. The EU. Why would anyone give up their jobs in the EU to allow the UK to take jobs away? Why would anyone invest in the UK without having access to the Single Market.

There is no future for bright, educated, aspiring individuals in a Britain that needlessly casts itself aside from other nations.

Will the last person leaving the UK please turn out the light.

Who actually benefits from all this investment that comes from the EU, from having a larger economy and all wonders of this magical financial stuff? Because our friends on the left have been telling us for the past six years, we a poorer than ever before, their are more unemployed than ever before, more suffering, worse NHS, poorer working conditions, inefficient trains and whatever other buzzline story suits your agenda. So what does all this investment really do for the people, that you are normally so eager to protect?

[Steven]

Who actually benefits from all this investment that comes from the EU, from having a larger economy and all wonders of this magical financial stuff? Because our friends on the left have been telling us for the past six years, we a poorer than ever before, their are more unemployed than ever before, more suffering, worse NHS, poorer working conditions, inefficient trains and whatever other buzzline story suits your agenda. So what does all this investment really do for the people, that you are normally so eager to protect?

I am talking about inward business investment. If I am Chinese/American I will want to invest once and a place that allows free movement of people and capital around my target market. That won't be the UK.

We already import so much and export so little that we will not have a strong hand in any trade talks.

[Strokes]

I am talking about inward business investment. If I am Chinese/American I will want to invest once and a place that allows free movement of people and capital around my target market. That won't be the UK.

We already import so much and export so little that we will not have a strong hand in any trade talks.

Yes but it's not benefitting the people enough, compared to the impact that it's having on everyone's lives. We had 352000 jobs created net in the year to July 2015 according to the office of national statistics. How many people did we let into our country in that time? How much wealth has actually been created? The U.K. Cannot sustain this investment in business, if it doesn't invest in the people already here.

Show me where the common man, the families on low to middle income stand to benefit from having a larger economy? Being an investable machine, has huge side effects and isn't all it's cracked up to be.

I'm not sure why you see us importing things as week hand in negotiations, it's quite the opposite. If we stop buying £20 billions pounds worth of German cars a year because the EU puts barriers up, that hurts them much more than it does us, wouldn't you say?

[Bobby Hundreds]

Who actually benefits from all this investment that comes from the EU

 

Science, research and the higher education sector to name a few.

[Strokes]

Science, research and the higher education sector to name a few.

So not the man on the street then and you are still wondering why he isn't convinced.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Yes but it's not benefitting the people enough, compared to the impact that it's having on everyone's lives. We had 352000 jobs created net in the year to July 2015 according to the office of national statistics. How many people did we let into our country in that time? How much wealth has actually been created? The U.K. Cannot sustain this investment in business, if it doesn't invest in the people already here.

Show me where the common man, the families on low to middle income stand to benefit from having a larger economy? Being an investable machine, has huge side effects and isn't all it's cracked up to be.

I'm not sure why you see us importing things as week hand in negotiations, it's quite the opposite. If we stop buying £20 billions pounds worth of German cars a year because the EU puts barriers up, that hurts them much more than it does us, wouldn't you say?

A weaker £ against the € could negate any perceived 'advantage' in negotiations, because I'm sure that could negate any impact on tariffs for the German car industry - plus, as we export a lot of cars into Europe from our Japanese owned plants, Germany, Frnace and Italy may consider making UK imports more expensive more beneficial overall for their sales in the EU.

[Bobby Hundreds]

So not the man on the street then and you are still wondering why he isn't convinced.

 

Haha, I can tell you know nothing about the people who use and staff these sectors.

[Strokes]

Haha, I can tell you know nothing about the people who use and staff these sectors.

No I don't, enlighten me.

[Thracian]

Extra help for failing to grasp the economic realities of being outside the largest economy in the World. The EU. Why would anyone give up their jobs in the EU to allow the UK to take jobs away? Why would anyone invest in the UK without having access to the Single Market.

There is no future for bright, educated, aspiring individuals in a Britain that needlessly casts itself aside from other nations.

Will the last person leaving the UK please turn out the light.

 

 

 

There is no way we will not trade vigorously with other Europe countries. And no way German car manufacturers will accept losing British markets. The amount they sell here is staggering.

 

Without British membership the Germans will have a massive fight on to save the EU from total collapse without increasing the pressure by losing income from the Brits who will also have other markets to develop on top of their European trade.

 

Jaguar/Land Rover have just opened a new factory in Brazil and I am sure there will be much more to follow?.      

 

 http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/jaguar-land-rover-begins-operations-at-brazilian-plant_6868361.html

 

This shows something close to the truth of it.

 

Our trading deficit within the EU is widening and our need to develop alternative markets increasing. The EU needs us more than we need them.

 

Meanwhile.... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2388429/British-exports-countries-outside-EU-soar-record-80BILLION-economy-reduces-dependence-Europe.html

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/10/uk-trade-deficit-hits-new-record-of-24bn-pounds-eu-referendum-brexit

[Dodgy Bob]

The ordinary working man of this country is absolutely blessed to be able to work here. Take your qualifications and skills to somewhere like Bangladesh, see how much you can earn and what kind of lifestyle you can live there, and then come back and try and tell us that a strong economy is pointless.

Earlier in this thread there was talk of complacency from the Remain camp. If brexiters are so comfortable, so used to the idea of living in a rich country that they think it will last forever regardless of how careless we are with the economy then I'd suggest that they too are being very complacent.

[Strokes]

A weaker £ against the € could negate any perceived 'advantage' in negotiations, because I'm sure that could negate any impact on tariffs for the German car industry - plus, as we export a lot of cars into Europe from our Japanese owned plants, Germany, Frnace and Italy may consider making UK imports more expensive more beneficial overall for their sales in the EU.

Short term thinking, the pound and the Euro fluctuate all the time and you seem to be ruling out that the Euro might take a hit too.

[Strokes]

The ordinary working man of this country is absolutely blessed to be able to work here. Take your qualifications and skills to somewhere like Bangladesh, see how much you can earn and what kind of lifestyle you can live there, and then come back and try and tell us that a strong economy is pointless.

Earlier in this thread there was talk of complacency from the Remain camp. If brexiters are so comfortable, so used to the idea of living in a rich country that they think it will last forever regardless of how careless we are with the economy then I'd suggest that they too are being very complacent.

Are you saying our economy would shrink to a Bangladesh size, if not i fail to see your point.

[johnny the fox]

Science, research and the higher education sector to name a few.

The EU does not have any money,  It is OUR MONEY! they just tell us where we can spend it , political organizations make no products.. produce no profits ..those who work in the EU are bound to say its wonderful they rely on it for their bg fat salaries end of...

[johnny the fox]

You told someone earlier in the thread to check their history. Ffs. The Americans were more than involved in the war before Pearl Harbour. How do you think it was financed, and supplied prior to this?

I was referring to the actual fighting...and by the way.. we paid for all the "aid" the yanks gave us.. in fact we only stopped paying them back a few years ago..check THAT out .....http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/article/2010/05/20100518114619zjsredna0.3529736.html  ok got it? 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Short term thinking, the pound and the Euro fluctuate all the time and you seem to be ruling out that the Euro might take a hit too.

Yes there are fluctuations, but if your negotiating a deal the market conditions at that point become extra important - so having a fall in economic position as you enter into negotiations weakens your position somewhat.

I also think the argument on German car manufactures and French farmers is far too simplistic. Those sectors could benefit from not having British imports of cars and farm produce to compete against - plus a lot of product coming in from those countries is high grade stuff, which is more resilient in terms of pricing.

Our debt is huge and we're running a deficit at the moment which means that debt is going up further still despite our economy showing some resilience so any short term hit could have far reaching consequences - and difficult decisions in terms of how we move forward.

[Dodgy Bob]

Are you saying our economy would shrink to a Bangladesh size, if not i fail to see your point.

It will certainly suffer and make most of us poorer. Before we joined the EU, for some 20 years our growth rate was half that of other industrialised nations. That was one of the main reasons we spent so long begging for them to let us in. If that happens again, it won't be long before we fall way down the ranking, and with emerging markets developing quickly, we may well fall to below Bangladesh in time.

Ultimately though, this is about avoiding pointless suffering. If you can take a pay cut/weak jobs market/tax rises and still be OK then good for you, not everyone will be so blasé about it when they realise they can no longer afford the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed, and I doubt having the likes of Boris "making our laws" is going to be much consolation.

[Strokes]

Yes there are fluctuations, but if your negotiating a deal the market conditions at that point become extra important - so having a fall in economic position as you enter into negotiations weakens your position somewhat.

I also think the argument on German car manufactures and French farmers is far too simplistic. Those sectors could benefit from not having British imports of cars and farm produce to compete against - plus a lot of product coming in from those countries is high grade stuff, which is more resilient in terms of pricing.

Our debt is huge and we're running a deficit at the moment which means that debt is going up further still despite our economy showing some resilience so any short term hit could have far reaching consequences - and difficult decisions in terms of how we move forward.

Hang on a second, if the German car.... could benefit from less competition, does that mean being in the EU is a disadvantage? You can't have it both ways.