The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

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Isabel Oakeshott‏@IsabelOakeshott

1/2 Rumour circulating that @@tom_watson told v high level media contact postal voting results from northern towns are 'shocking' for Remain

 

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I'm more worried how anyone knows the result of the postal votes before the rest of the votes are counted.

[Foxxed]

If MEPs can't propose legislation nor repeal it how is it democratic?

 

The Commission proposes things that were agreed upon in the treaty negotiations. Our elected British Prime Minister, who has a veto on treaty negotiations, okays that on our behalf.

 

The elected MEPs then--along with the Council made up of people our elected government sends--allow or disallow such legislation.

 

And the MEPs can--and have in the past with the last big Commission corruption scandal--dismiss the Commission if they want.

 

And the Commission is headed by people our representatives in the Council okay. Again, those are the people our elected government sends to the Council.

 

But I agree it's not massively clear to people who haven't spent two months arguing on an internet forum about it.

[Foxxed]

And as to whether an MEP can repeal legislation, it goes like this:

 

1. Oh look, here's some legislation.

 

2. Does it abide by the treaty negotiations that the British Prime Minister, among others, okayed?

 

3. No? Then it can be taken to the European High Court. They then say: yeah it abides to what was agreed, or not it doesn't.

 

An MEP can bring about this process. And so can anyone, even you!!

[johnny the fox]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JZP-W0FAXg  if you ever need a reminder of what the elite really think of us....here's Gordon doing a bit missionary work..

 

 

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rhodri_jonesVerified account‏@rhodri_jones

One Labour MP for REMAIN tells @GaryGibbonBlog they are "not going into white working class wards" as "there is no point".

 

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[Foxxed]

People who think Britain on Brexit will be in an economically stronger position confuse me.

 

It's be like one of LCFC's groundmen leaving the club, and then expect the same prices for gardening supplies, compared to what the club gets.

 

He'd be crazy to think that. Yet Brexiters think the same. "We'll leave the world's biggest trading union. And then we'll negotiate better trade deals!". Insanity.

 

I don't even think Brexiters are racist. This forum seems to have a reasonably low level of racism. The problem--and this is more damaging for the UK's economy--is a romanticised view of world economics.

 

"We'll be better able to take control of our destiny when we're outside a massive trade union our neighbours have setup!"

[johnny the fox]

People who think Britain on Brexit will be in an economically stronger position confuse me.

 

It's be like one of LCFC's groundmen leaving the club, and then expect the same prices for gardening supplies, compared to what the club gets.

 

He'd be crazy to think that. Yet Brexiters think the same. "We'll leave the world's biggest trading union. And then we'll negotiate better trade deals!". Insanity.

 

I don't even think Brexiters are racist. This forum seems to have a reasonably low level of racism. The problem--and this is more damaging for the UK's economy--is a romanticised view of world economics.

 

"We'll be better able to take control of our destiny when we're outside a massive trade union our neighbours have setup!"

The EU world market share has been dropping for the past 20 years..

[Webbo]

And as to whether an MEP can repeal legislation, it goes like this:

 

1. Oh look, here's some legislation.

 

2. Does it abide by the treaty negotiations that the British Prime Minister, among others, okayed?

 

3. No? Then it can be taken to the European High Court. They then say: yeah it abides to what was agreed, or not it doesn't.

 

An MEP can bring about this process. And so can anyone, even you!!

So if I don't like a law and only if it doesn't fit a certain criteria I can spend years and a ton of money taking it to court for a 50/50 chance it might be chucked out? Hmm, that sounds easy, how democratic.

[Foxxed]

The EU world market share has been dropping for the past 20 years..

1. What do you mean by market share? Share of what? GDP? Population? Demand? Supply?
2. Does this take into account China has grown massively in the last 20 years? MAYBE WE SHOULD JOIN CHINA. CHITAIN! BRITINA!

And most importantly:

 

Let's say its global influence over the last 20 years have dropped, due to China and whatever. Does that mean we'll therefore leave and do better? There's quite a jump in reasoning there.

[Foxxed]

So if I don't like a law and only if it doesn't fit a certain criteria I can spend years and a ton of money taking it to court for a 50/50 chance it might be chucked out? Hmm, that sounds easy, how democratic.

 

Or you get your high flying, massively competent party to do it for you. Or perhaps even lobby your government. Or your get the parliament to demand the EU High Court looks into it. The world is open to possibilities.

[Webbo]

Or you get your high flying, massively competent party to do it for you. Or perhaps even lobby your government. Or your get the parliament to demand the EU High Court looks into it. The world is open to possibilities.

Isn't it easier just to vote people out?

[johnny the fox]

 

1. What do you mean by market share? Share of what? GDP? Population? Demand? Supply?
2. Does this take into account China has grown massively in the last 20 years? MAYBE WE SHOULD JOIN CHINA. CHITAIN! BRITINA!

And most importantly:

 

Let's say its global influence over the last 20 years have dropped, due to China and whatever. Does that mean we'll therefore leave and do better? There's quite a jump in reasoning there.

 

percentage of world trade..http://order-order.com/2014/09/25/eus-share-of-world-trade-is-shrinking-commonwealth-grows-as-eu-shrinks/

[Strokes]

People who think Britain on Brexit will be in an economically stronger position confuse me.

It's be like one of LCFC's groundmen leaving the club, and then expect the same prices for gardening supplies, compared to what the club gets.

He'd be crazy to think that. Yet Brexiters think the same. "We'll leave the world's biggest trading union. And then we'll negotiate better trade deals!". Insanity.

I don't even think Brexiters are racist. This forum seems to have a reasonably low level of racism. The problem--and this is more damaging for the UK's economy--is a romanticised view of world economics.

"We'll be better able to take control of our destiny when we're outside a massive trade union our neighbours have setup!"

Maybe if we can't get things as cheap, we can start making/manufacturing some of these things and selling them to ourselves. Some things will go up in price but where they do, there could be an opportunity here.

[Guest MattP]

EU referendum poll

Remain: 46% (-6)

Leave: 45% (+4)

(via ComRes, phone)

This was the poll last time that had remain infront by eleven points.

[Strokes]

EU referendum poll

Remain: 46% (-6)

Leave: 45% (+4)

(via ComRes, phone)

This was the poll last time that had remain infront by eleven points.

Proves their is still work to be done from leave.

[Dr The Singh]

EU referendum poll

Remain: 46% (-6)

Leave: 45% (+4)

(via ComRes, phone)

This was the poll last time that had remain infront by eleven points.

The leave campaign has all the momentum. You look at all media channels, the leave has far more exposure

[DJ Barry Hammond]

EU referendum poll

Remain: 46% (-6)

Leave: 45% (+4)

(via ComRes, phone)

This was the poll last time that had remain infront by eleven points.

I had a look at the breakdown of the latest ICM one - my understanding is the actual response breakdown is around 33 / 33 / 33, but that they aggregate a fair portion of the "Don't Knows" to one side or the other based on their responses to related questions.

The other thing I'm aware of - a lot of the chatter is for Leave, but it's not the easiest thing to speak out loud for Remain against that, so there could be a lot of people silently leaning that way.

Of course if anyone else would like to hold out some straws, I'll have a go at grabbing them.

[Webbo]

I had a look at the breakdown of the latest ICM one - my understanding is the actual response breakdown is around 33 / 33 / 33, but that they aggregate a fair portion of the "Don't Knows" to one side or the other based on their responses to related questions.

The other thing I'm aware of - a lot of the chatter is for Leave, but it's not the easiest thing to speak out loud for Remain against that, so there could be a lot of people silently leaning that way.

Of course if anyone else would like to hold out some straws, I'll have a go at grabbing them.

I still can't see it happening if that's any consolation.

[bovril]

Everyone here is doing the typical football fan thing of predicting the opposite of what they hope will happen

[Guest MattP]

Osborne now threatening 30 billion worth of cuts and tax rises if we vote for Brexit.

I thought they has ran out of things to scare us with, I was wrong. What are they going to be terrorise us with by next week?

He's all in now, not a chance of saving his career after a leave vote.

[Guest MattP]

Barry you might be right.

I originally thought the shy voters would be leave as it was a long held viewpoint people didn't want to admit to (partly because of the silly racist/Ukip accusations) now I think, London excepted, it's the more acceptable viewpoint to hold in public.

[Thracian]

With the Yanks putting 4000 soldiers into the Baltic region none of it will matter. By the time any "out" vote is implemented by 2020 the Russians will have moved in, stolen our football grounds and turned the rest of the EU into wheat fields. Sir Alex Ferguson will be UK Prime Minister with Andre Kanchelskis his secret agent. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nato-sends-4000-troops-to-baltic-to-boost-defences-against-russia-a7079971.html

[lifted*fox]

You do realise the government won't let the 'leave' vote win. Even if the 'leave' votes outnumber the 'in' votes they will just be fiddled in favour of 'in'.

 

'In' will beat 'leave' by a close-ish margin to give the appearance of a close call but it'll be engineered to ensure we remain a part of the EU. 

 

It won't be the first nor the last time in history that votes go 'missing'. 

[Carl the Llama]

Boris Johnson

You know when someone is losing an argument because they suddenly get all rattled, and personal, and sometimes even a little bit menacing. It is clear from their style of debate in the last few weeks that the Remain campaign is conscious that it is losing the argument, and losing comprehensively. To many fair-minded people – including those who had not previously given the matter much thought – it now seems obvious that the UK should leave the European Union.

Whatever the noble ambitions on which it was founded, the EU is an anachronism. It is increasingly anti-democratic; its supranational system is being imitated nowhere else on earth; and its economic policies are causing misery in many parts of the EU. It is sclerotic, opaque, elitist: different nations bound together by a centralised bureaucracy that ordinary people can neither understand nor vote out. It is an attempt to build a United States of Europe; to create a single political structure. And yet no senior Remainer has so far had the honesty to defend the project for what it is. No one on the Remain side has shown any shred of explicit federalist idealism; no one has called for Britain to join in “building Europe” or in creating a “European identity”. That is because they know that this ideology – though dominant in Brussels – would be viewed with alarm by the British public.

So what do we get, instead of idealism? We get an unending and intensifying diet of fear. We are being bullied and brow-beaten into remaining in this failing system – and I think the public can see through it. As time goes on, I find more and more people can see that Britain would have a great future outside the EU – trading freely with the EU and the rest of the world, while engaging fully at an intergovernmental level with all the political and diplomatic questions in Europe. On every major question it is possible to take back control – and thrive.

Whether you express the figure as £350 million a week gross or £10.6 billion a year net, most people are amazed to discover how much we pay just to be in the EU. We could do with having that cash back. They can see that our current immigration policy is unfair and unbalanced and out of control – and they can also see that the Remain campaign has failed for months to answer the fundamental question. How can we control the rate – 333,000 net last year, a city the size of Newcastle – as long as we are in the EU?

The Remainers have nothing to say. Their mouths just open and shut, wordlessly. Above all, people are rumbling the great big fat lie at the heart of the whole thing: that the sacrifice of democracy – the 2,500 new EU laws imposed on us every year, costing £600 million a week for business – is somehow worth it for the economic benefits of the so-called single market.

In the last week we have had amazing testimonials from two of the biggest heroes of modern British manufacturing. I was thrilled when they spoke out, because I know the kind of pressure that all UK business leaders are facing from Project Fear. In their optimism, their vigour and their belief in this country, they sum up what the Leave campaign is all about. They are (Lord) Anthony Bamford, of the mighty digger firm JCB, and James Dyson the billionaire entrepreneur and inventor.

Now these people make machines: beautiful, complex, cutting-edge bits of technology. You might have thought that it was precisely for them – and their kind – that the “single market” was invented, so that their vacuum cleaners and backhoe loaders can circulate freely across the 510-million strong territory. You might have imagined that they would be passionate advocates of the system.

On the contrary – they both export colossal quantities to EU markets, and will continue to do so; but they both think we should get out of the EU, and that the whole thing is going in the wrong direction. Dyson is the No 1 brand leader in the German vacuum-cleaner market. Does he worry about tariffs, if we left? Of course not. The Germans would not dream of it: we Brits buy 820,000 German cars every year, worth about 20 billion euros. In fact we buy one fifth of Germany’s entire car output. As Dyson points out, tariffs would mean the Germans would be cutting their own throats. It won’t happen.

He wants to take back control of our law-making system, because he is fed up with the Brussels stitch-up, by which British ministers can be outvoted to the detriment of his company. And he wants to take back control of immigration – not because he is in any way hostile to immigrants. He is just infuriated by the imbalance in the system. There is no limit on EU migrants, but he has no way of hiring enough postgraduate engineers, because most people doing research in science and engineering at British universities are from outside the EU.

As for Lord Bamford, he has seen that the “single market” is in reality a political project that is turning inexorably into a single government of Europe. There is no need to be part of this expensive legislative machine in order to export goods or services into the EU. The latest figures show that between 1993 (the dawn of the single market) and 2015 there were 36 countries – including India, Russia, China, America, New Zealand, Canada, Brazil – who did better than the UK at exporting to the single market. They weren’t “in” it. They didn’t have Brussels making 60 per cent of their laws. And yet they did better than us.

It is time for this country to show some of the self-belief of these two great companies. It was only a few months ago that the Prime Minister was saying we would thrive mightily outside. He was right first time. As James Dyson says: “We will create more wealth and more jobs by being outside the EU. We will be in control of our destiny. And control, I think, is the most important thing in life and business.”

Boris Johnson put this on his Facebook yesterday, I thought it was a decent account of mine and others feelings.

Is that the feeling that it's alright to throw around statements and figures - which have already been repeatedly questioned and disproven - as though they are certifiable facts in yet another transparent attempt to mislead the public into agreeing with you?

 

Perhaps it's the feeling that there's no irony to bemoaning scare tactics and personal attacks while making these manipulative and erroneous claims and telling us not quite in so many words how stupid people who want to remain in political and economic union are?

 

Indeed on the topic of irony it could be the feeling that there's no irony to complaining about lack of democracy in one sentence and complaining about how unfair it is that British ministers can be outvoted (ie. democracy) in another?

 

Maybe it's the feeling that the whole system is just too complicated for John Q Public so let's just throw these alarming falsehoods at them and hope I'm right about them not wanting to share a democratic system with Johnny Foreigner to help govern matters that affect us all nor having the initiative to learn how the EU works in many ways very similarly to the UK's democratic process for themselves?

[Thracian]

You do realise the government won't let the 'leave' vote win. Even if the 'leave' votes outnumber the 'in' votes they will just be fiddled in favour of 'in'.

 

'In' will beat 'leave' by a close-ish margin to give the appearance of a close call but it'll be engineered to ensure we remain a part of the EU. 

 

It won't be the first nor the last time in history that votes go 'missing'. 

That very thought had crossed my mind.

[sphericalfox]

The yanks only got involved after pearl harbour even though churchill was begging them to get in.. The USA thinks about the USA first and last..

You told someone earlier in the thread to check their history. Ffs. The Americans were more than involved in the war before Pearl Harbour. How do you think it was financed, and supplied prior to this?