The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Buce]

Must be a tough one for Corbyn this, when an MP is murdered by extremists he usualy invites them for peace talks a couple of weeks afterwards, hope he doesn't do so this time.

Cheap political point scoring.

Show some fvcking dignity and respect.

[johnny the fox]

I wish I could agree - but sadly, we have a responsibility to look at the sort of society we have suddenly become, where crazed fascists can gun down a pro-EU MP in broad daylight.

And if you ant another angle.....here is Martin Samuel, the Daily Mails's top football writer, on the poisonous political climate which has inspired UK football hooliganism.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-3637944/Euro-2016-violence-Marseille-Half-naked-paralytic-leering-women-taking-town-square-like-occupying-army-s-England-fans-repulse-world.html

This referendum has stirred up some really foul shit that has been lying at the bottom of the pond for years without ever really going away

no, the worse thing ANY democracy can do is to try and suppress points of view WE might think are disgusting and beyond the pale...the best thing is bring them out into the open and expose them for what they are with reasoned argument and debate.. these people are not going to go away by being condemned ..they are in every society..I have been called a a thinly veiled biigot and a racist on here ..its an easy accusation to throw around  and is incredibly offensive , especially when it is not backed up with a scintilla of evidence... i reserve judgement on this tragedy until the police do a full investigation and all the facts are known...unlike so many others who want to use it for they're own agenda which is shameful in my view..

[apple987]

Anyone got a feeling that a few days before the referendum someone high profile in the leave campaign is going to come out and say they have changed there mind and now want eu to remain. Wouldn't surprise me if it is Boris.

[The Railway Man]

Cheap political point scoring.

Show some fvcking dignity and respect.

 

Truth hurt much? Imagine if this was Britain First and in a few days time a Tory backbencher invited representatives of them to parliament, paraded them around and then sat down for a meeting under the guise of peace talks. Because thats exactly what that man did, you can't erase history no matter how much you want too.

[SMX11]

Anyone got a feeling that a few days before the referendum someone high profile in the leave campaign is going to come out and say they have changed there mind and now want eu to remain. Wouldn't surprise me if it is Boris.

The polls suggest it is more likely going to be someone from the remain campaign.

[Guest MattP]

Anyone got a feeling that a few days before the referendum someone high profile in the leave campaign is going to come out and say they have changed there mind and now want eu to remain. Wouldn't surprise me if it is Boris.

 

No chance of Boris doing it, his whole move to support leave was to put himself in a position as leader, if he did switch any chance of that vanishes.

 

I'd be surprised if anyone switched sides now so soon, it was bad enough last week when the odious Sarah Wollaston did so, so obvious to everyone she's been promised something in this wretched Tory government in the event of a remain vote.

[Guest MattP]

I've got to say as well I do concur with those who has said life goes on, we shouldn't be stopping the campaign so close to the most important decision for a generation because of this.

 

Question Time with Geldof and the last Andrew Neil interview with IDS has been cancelled (something I'd be annoyed about as a remain supporter as Leave now had a clear advantage on that 2 to 1), the biggest V sign we can give to anyone who wants to damage democracy is to continue.

[johnny the fox]

Anyone got a feeling that a few days before the referendum someone high profile in the leave campaign is going to come out and say they have changed there mind and now want eu to remain. Wouldn't surprise me if it is Boris.

no mate.. that person would be laughed out of politics ..and it would be shown up for what it was....

[Steven]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/jo-cox-dead-thomas-mair-suspect-south-africa-apartheid-a7086426.html

He has previous.

[Alf Bentley]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/jo-cox-dead-thomas-mair-suspect-south-africa-apartheid-a7086426.html

He has previous.

 

 

This should be in the thread about the shooting, not the thread about the EU referendum, shouldn't it?

[leicsmac]

 

But the facts aren't established here yet, we have 1 (from 3 orignally) eye witnesses saying someone shouted Britain First, if this was politically motivated then we'll deal with that when it comes to it, this isn't Brussels where a known extremist walked into a place shouting "Allah Akbar" and 50 witnesses back it up on the spot, there are also eye witnesses saying he said nothing of the sort but are being ignored.

 

Even the person who the press claim to have tackled the gunman has put this notice up in his shop this morning.

 

 

I almost hope it is true it was BF first, because the thought of the whole mainstream media using this death as a political tool is too horrid to think about it, if they have some people have some serious explaining to do.

 

The facts aren't established in the case of the Orlando shooting last week either - all we know is that he (allegedly) called the fuzz pledging himself to IS. That didn't stop the discussion on that discussion thread - as well as in certain corners of the media and society - from politicising it to the max. There wasn't any waiting to remove all doubt there.

 

You may choose to see the culpability of ideology in both of these instances (based on how the murderers acted) and therefore being able to place the blame as different. I do not, and I think that is a point we're not going to be able to convince the other on. I have seen such double standards far too often.

[Steven]

This should be in the thread about the shooting, not the thread about the EU referendum, shouldn't it?

The two are linked. Brexit man shots MP. If he is 'Don't know' you might have a point.

The hard to casual racism of a significant number of Brexiters is germane to the Referendum.

[Guest MattP]

The facts aren't established in the case of the Orlando shooting last week either - all we know is that he (allegedly) called the fuzz pledging himself to IS. That didn't stop the discussion on that discussion thread - as well as in certain corners of the media and society - from politicising it to the max. There wasn't any waiting to remove all doubt there.

 

You may choose to see the culpability of ideology in both of these instances (based on how the murderers acted) and therefore being able to place the blame as different. I do not, and I think that is a point we're not going to be able to convince the other on. I have seen such double standards far too often.

 

Bit different, the fuzz themselves confirmed he had done that within hours of it happening, all we have here is a couple of eye witnesses and nothing concrete, to compare the two is a little silly.

 

The two are linked. Brexit man shots MP. If he is 'Don't know' you might have a point.

The hard to casual racism of a significant number of Brexiters is germane to the Referendum.

 

You really are something else. I take back my earlier comment, you are worse than the runt Daily Star headline this morning.

[The Railway Man]

The two are linked. Brexit man shots MP. If he is 'Don't know' you might have a point.

The hard to casual racism of a significant number of Brexiters is germane to the Referendum.

 

Have you any shame? Brexit man shoots MP? What the ****?

[leicsmac]

Bit different, the fuzz themselves confirmed he had done that within hours of it happening, all we have here is a couple of eye witnesses and nothing concrete, to compare the two is a little silly.

 

Fair enough. I see enough ambiguity in both cases to not seek to put responsibility on a wider group, and as a result I still think that many peoples response to this has been unjustly hypocritical.

 

Like I said, evidently we disagree on that, and are not likely to budge.

[Steven]

I am just commenting on the facts as they are currently known. That may not indeed fit some people's agenda, but I have to believe this kind of violence will increase if the racists and craven politicians are validated by a Brexit win..

[Guest MattP]

You are a complete ****ing idiot. I'm out of here.

[Steven]

You are a complete ****ing idiot. I'm out of here.

Brexiter has a hissy fit. Shock. To me it is symptomatic of the Brexit argument that panders to the emotions. A reasoned clear mind is needed to make the biggest decision to affect the UK for the last fifty years.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

I've got to say as well I do concur with those who has said life goes on, we shouldn't be stopping the campaign so close to the most important decision for a generation because of this.

Question Time with Geldof and the last Andrew Neil interview with IDS has been cancelled (something I'd be annoyed about as a remain supporter as Leave now had a clear advantage on that 2 to 1), the biggest V sign we can give to anyone who wants to damage democracy is to continue.

I think your coming at this from a vested interested view. Ok the referendum is important, but a pause does serve key purposoes.

For one, this is essentially a "family death" within the institution of West Minister, so I don't think many would have the appetite to campaign right now. They need a period of reflection and unity in the face of this horrible tradegy, can you really begrudge them some time off from the norm?

Additionally there are important things to consider behind the scenes on a practical sense - not only in terms of MP security and whether any changes need to be made in the short term (prior to being able to understand more about the causes of this situation) but also in terms of how each side positions their referendum campaigns after this.

Like it or not, this horrible scenario will have an impact on the campaign whilst there are questions in the air over the motive. I have no doubt that the PR people on the Leave side have some tough decisions to make and are probably grateful for some time to consider an approach going forward. For example, the "Breaking Point" poster released yesterday by Nigel Farage - will they still use that now or cosign that one to the bin?

There's also a pragmatic point to this as well. For a start, any campaigning won't be headline news, so it's not going to get to much of an audience. But then consider who the campaigning is really for - it's not for the likes of you or me, who have an interest in politics but know which side we're voting on and just like to argue about it, it's for undecided voters - who would find any forced, strong message right now distasteful.

Finally - it's a bit silly to think campaigning has stopped full stop persay. The decision to stop is partly campaigning in itself and there are subtle indirect messages going out already. True, probably most of this is in the Remain sides favour, but that's due to the circumstances and it would be wrong and disastful to say there was deliberate manipulation of this tragedy by leading figures (but this does go to show the difficult position the leave camp suddenly find themselves in - the best move or their side is probably to stay respectful and keep quiet about everything else for a while).

There will also be indirect campaigning and accusations on Twitter and on forums like this. So the debate will go on, it's just not being led from the front - and that's only right.

By the way, Interesting to see my least favourite person(s) in politics, Grant Shapp (Michael Green) essentially agreed with me - and that the Tories won't put up a candidate.

[Harry - LCFC]

I am just commenting on the facts as they are currently known. That may not indeed fit some people's agenda, but I have to believe this kind of violence will increase if the racists and craven politicians are validated by a Brexit win..

 

I suspect it's probably more accurate to say you want to believe it. You appear to be someone who approaches the debate by trying to paint your opponents as bad people rather than attempt to criticise their arguments.

 

You certainly don't have to believe it, I see no reason to.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

The two are linked. Brexit man shots MP. If he is 'Don't know' you might have a point.

The hard to casual racism of a significant number of Brexiters is germane to the Referendum.

Too soon to go there Steven.

This is one of those things that you can think privately and discuss among people you have confidence in - because many will draw the same conclusion, but to air them publicly on a forum is not wise especially given how little; firm information we have / time has passed.

I would also say that personally, I think it's the wrong approach - it feels like it's the reverse of those who are quick to tarnish 'Islam' as a whole after a terrorist attack.

[The Railway Man]

I am just commenting on the facts as they are currently known. That may not indeed fit some people's agenda, but I have to believe this kind of violence will increase if the racists and craven politicians are validated by a Brexit win..

 

It's beyond sanity you can preach about facts given your last few posts on here.

[Steven]

Too soon to go there Steven.

This is one of those things that you can think privately and discuss among people you have confidence in - because many will draw the same conclusion, but to air them publicly on a forum is not wise especially given how little; firm information we have / time has passed.

I would also say that personally, I think it's the wrong approach - it feels like it's the reverse of those who are quick to tarnish 'Islam' as a whole after a terrorist attack.

The last sentence should definitely be said. The casual racism of the Brexit campaign is there for all to see.

[Strokes]

The last sentence should definitely be said. The casual racism of the Brexit campaign is there for all to see.

Put your tar brush away Steven, it doesn't suit you.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

The last sentence should definitely be said. The casual racism of the Brexit campaign is there for all to see.

But what you are doing is similar to all of those who support Brexit. Are you suggesting that those who wish to vote leave shouldn't be able to because it's racist?

There may be elements of the campaign you disapprove of... In which case pinpoint those. Don't use a tragic death and it's circumstances as a proxy argument.