MPH Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 I'm Not to keen on this idea that Suddenly this season Ulloa is now crap. Last season and the season before he is really good but now he isnt. I just Don't buy it. However what i will say is are our expectations rising due to our lofty position and the emergence of some clear stand out stars? For me he is a good player. Always will be, but i don't consider him to be champions league quality. Just like when Dean Hammond became a victim of us taking it to the next level when we got promoted, So too Should Ulloa. He's a good player but he isn't top 5 quality. He should'nt be replaced because he's suddenly crap, but because we need a higher lvl of player if we seriously want to finish this season in the top 5.
Kilworthfox Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 I'm not a fan of Ulloa. I don't think that he has the ability to play at our level that we need going forward. I do like his attitue, I can't say that he doesn't try, and in this interview he is saying lots of positive things. Nice guy,thanks, but its soon time for us both to move on.
americanfox Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 I'm Not to keen on this idea that Suddenly this season Ulloa is now crap. Last season and the season before he is really good but now he isnt. I just Don't buy it. However what i will say is are our expectations rising due to our lofty position and the emergence of some clear stand out stars? For me he is a good player. Always will be, but i don't consider him to be champions league quality. Just like when Dean Hammond became a victim of us taking it to the next level when we got promoted, So too Should Ulloa. He's a good player but he isn't top 5 quality. He should be replaced because he's suddenly crap, but because we need a higher lvl of player if we seriously want to finish this season in the top 5. Using Dean Hammond as an example of a "victim" is pretty poor. Dean Hammond was/will never be a Premiership-standard player, and that's okay. It's clear that the club had to upgrade from players of his standard to avoid the drop or being in a relegation struggle every year. Ulloa is a fine player, but he's not good enough for the level we're growing towards.
MPH Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 Using Dean Hammond as an example of a "victim" is pretty poor. Dean Hammond was/will never be a Premiership-standard player, and that's okay. It's clear that the club had to upgrade from players of his standard to avoid the drop or being in a relegation struggle every year. Ulloa is a fine player, but he's not good enough for the level we're growing towards. Umm... I dont get the point of your post... isnt this exactly what i just said, including your point about Dean Hammond?
Koke Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 I agree with MPH Ulloa is not crap per se. He's just not good enough for us. Last year he was good for us because last year we were a relegation fodder side. Most of our players this season have improved drastically, but Ulloa hasn't. He is still playing like a bottom 3 club player. Maybe Ulloa can do a job for Norwich or Sunderland, but he cannot perform well for us consistently at the level we are this season. Even honest professionals like Marc Albrighton and Wes Morgan have been able to raise their game and play like top 6 players this season. Ulloa is simply not good enough.
NewEnglandFox Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 Ulloa is simply not good enough. Yet the team is simply better when he plays... Edit: I made a mistake. We've only scored 21 goals with Shinji on the pitch. And it still doesn't make a difference. Silly me.
americanfox Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 Umm... I dont get the point of your post... isnt this exactly what i just said, including your point about Dean Hammond? Guess I didn't read your post carefully enough. Yeah I agree with you
americanfox Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 Yet the team is simply better when he plays... Using Per 90 metrics doesn't account for different game states or score effects (e.g. if Ulloa comes on as a sub when we are trying to close games out defensively, of course GA is going to be lower. And given Ulloa has not been prolific on attack, who's to see he deserves full credit for the GF?), so using this metric to assert that Leo is "better" without major context adjustments is pretty poor on your part.
Livid Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 I didn't here the booing myself but I did think we would be holding on for 30 minutes. When the team plays well as a whole he seems to have a good game, when things aren't going well, Spurs in the cup/Villa, his style of play makes him a scapegoat. As an old fashioned centre forward he's ok. Get in the box for that final touch/header etc. I just don't think he totally fits the way we play at the moment.
Long Eaton Fox Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 Wish he would just head the ball on to Vardy instead of having a wrestling match every time trying to get the ball on his chest.
GaelicFox Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 Yup a group of a about 10 guys all did as he won the header sitting towards the back of SK1 next to SK2. I turned round and they were all smiling and me and few other called them fvcking idiots. Are They the slightly older fella's always laughing and moaning at players ?
UpTheLeagueFox Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 ¿En qué momento cambió la inercia negativa de la temporada pasada? Fue un día que Esteban Cambiasso empezó a hacer cuentas de lo que necesitábamos para salvarnos y hubo una charla con el cuerpo técnico. Entonces nos dijimos que no teníamos nada que perder y empezamos a jugar de forma más distendida, sin miedo a perder. Ganamos al West Brom y empezamos a creer. Faltaban 10 jornadas y ganamos ocho partidos, empatamos uno y sólo perdimos con el Chelsea. Y esa buena dinámica la trasladamos a esta campaña. Basically saying Cambiasso masterminded our great escape If you speak to players who were in the dressing room, they'll tell you that Cambiasso played a big part on the field but he didn't "mastermind" the Great Escape. It's was a team effort - manager, staff, players, everyone. Ulloa is of course always going to say nice things about his fellow countryman. It's all in the past anyway...
NewEnglandFox Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 Using Per 90 metrics doesn't account for different game states or score effects (e.g. if Ulloa comes on as a sub when we are trying to close games out defensively, of course GA is going to be lower. And given Ulloa has not been prolific on attack, who's to see he deserves full credit for the GF?), so using this metric to assert that Leo is "better" without major context adjustments is pretty poor on your part. Except Leo's GA/90 is 1.42 as a substitute which is the opposite of what you suggested which you definitely didn't look up and just assumed the wrong answer unable to back it up. Coming on as an 87' sub and having a team mate concede a penalty is terrible on the old GA. Leo and Shinji have both been directly involved in 4 goals apiece. I've said we play better because we score more, concede less, and Jamie and Riyad score more with Leo on the pitch. If that's still not enough for you and you'd like go into the goals scored to give indirect credit to dig one level deeper we can. But still, I think it's funny you want me to dig deeper when you didn't do so to try to make your own counterpoint.
americanfox Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 Except Leo's GA/90 is 1.42 as a substitute which is the opposite of what you suggested which you definitely didn't look up and just assumed the wrong answer unable to back it up. Coming on as an 87' sub and having a team mate concede a penalty is terrible on the old GA. Leo and Shinji have both been directly involved in 4 goals apiece. I've said we play better because we score more, concede less, and Jamie and Riyad score more with Leo on the pitch. If that's still not enough for you and you'd like go into the goals scored to give indirect credit to dig one level deeper we can. But still, I think it's funny you want me to dig deeper when you didn't do so to try to make your own counterpoint. My bigger point was mostly about score effects and correlation != causation. I get your counterexamples, and won't really debate that. And yes I am too lazy to look additional numbers up -- and I don't have that data compiled anyway. I'm just telling you that IMO, in aggregate, using Per 90 team metrics to justify a player's value can be EXTREMELY disingenuous. Unless these Per 90 metrics can be drilled down to better isolate the value of each player in attack (e.g. attacking zone touches, successful passes into the Danger Zone, xG contributed, Key Passes), those metrics tell me that while the team may play better with Ulloa on the pitch, who knows if Ulloa is really that key difference? You're making an assumption that these metrics are ceteris paribus, which is totally totally totally untrue and most of us (of both analytically or less analytically informed nature) see this. Do Vardy and Mahrez really score more with Ulloa on the pitch, or is that a function of many uncontrolled variables (i.e. game states, score effects, quality of opposition) in terms of when Shinji and Ulloa have played?
Webbo Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 Ulloa speaks to Marca about our title chances. ¡Uno para los hispanohablantes en aqui! http://www.marca.com/futbol/premier-league/2016/01/27/56a8a88846163fd7268b4640.html The Mail have done a translation. A bit more understandable than google translate. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3419020/Jamie-Vardy-quick-Leicester-team-mates-admits-strike-partner-Leonardo-Ulloa.html
Guest Col city fan Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 Good read that I liked this bit: ¿En qué momento cambió la inercia negativa de la temporada pasada? Fue un día que Esteban Cambiasso empezó a hacer cuentas de lo que necesitábamos para salvarnos y hubo una charla con el cuerpo técnico. Entonces nos dijimos que no teníamos nada que perder y empezamos a jugar de forma más distendida, sin miedo a perder. Ganamos al West Brom y empezamos a creer. Faltaban 10 jornadas y ganamos ocho partidos, empatamos uno y sólo perdimos con el Chelsea. Y esa buena dinámica la trasladamos a esta campaña. Basically saying Cambiasso masterminded our great escape If you try hard enough, I bet theres an argument to say that even though Cambiasso isn't playing much in Greece, he's actually masterminded our success this season. Possibly it was Cambiasso that was at the centre of our promotion season because Pearson told the boys he'd be joining if we went up? If you try hard enough. ..
americanfox Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 Except Leo's GA/90 is 1.42 as a substitute which is the opposite of what you suggested which you definitely didn't look up and just assumed the wrong answer unable to back it up. Coming on as an 87' sub and having a team mate concede a penalty is terrible on the old GA. Leo and Shinji have both been directly involved in 4 goals apiece. I've said we play better because we score more, concede less, and Jamie and Riyad score more with Leo on the pitch. If that's still not enough for you and you'd like go into the goals scored to give indirect credit to dig one level deeper we can. But still, I think it's funny you want me to dig deeper when you didn't do so to try to make your own counterpoint. Just looked this up on Squawka: http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2015/2016/leonardo_ulloa/165/165/10242/0/p|premier_league/2015/2016/shinji_okazaki/165/165/2354/0/p|premier_league/2015/2016/jamie_vardy/165/165/10705/0/p#total_score/attack_score/successful_passes/assists/goals_scored/total_shots/chances_created/shot_accuracy/key_passes#90 Will say this: didn't realize some of Shinji's key attacking metrics were so poor. Don't agree with your use of Team Per 90 metrics you cited to show that Ulloa has been better than Shinji overall, but a drill down (especially looking at Chances Created) makes me more open-minded to your viewpoint. I would also be particularly interested in seeing more attacking metric comparisons (like Danger Zone chances/shots created), but would have to pay for that haha.
Ike O'Noclassed Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 I laughed at this far more than I should have. On a side note though, I remember reading somewhere last season that he'd opted for Chile (if ever selected) over Argentina, not sure how much truth there was in that. According to another part of the interview with Marca, Leo says he was approached by Chile but turned them down. I like him because he's the love child of Frank Large and Eva Peron, and for all his ungainliness, I've got a feeling that winning this league will not be a thing of beauty but will need him to put his head in where it hurts.
The Doctor Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 Are people really getting so focused on statistics that they can't see what's right in front of their face - that okazaki perfectly compliments Vardy and has helped to bring the best out of him?
Guest ttfn Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 Are people really getting so focused on statistics that they can't see what's right in front of their face - that okazaki perfectly compliments Vardy and has helped to bring the best out of him? Yeah but Hull have got more points than us this season so their strikers must be better.
NewEnglandFox Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 Are people really getting so focused on statistics that they can't see what's right in front of their face - that okazaki perfectly compliments Vardy and has helped to bring the best out of him? Out of the 6 goals Vardy has scored with Shinji on the pitch, this is the best example of Shinji helping... https://streamable.com/fa6t and out of the 6 goals he's scored with Leo on the pitch: 2 assists: https://streamable.com/va6b https://streamable.com/6zue 2 2nd to last touches: https://streamable.com/5qtm https://streamable.com/70cs Care to tell me what is in front of my face? Because I think it's the goals we score.
The Doctor Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 so last week ulloa was assisting on the basis of being in the box when the goal was scored, but shinji doesn't get credit unless he actively assisted it? It is obvious that shinjis style of play is far more compatible with vardys than ulloa, because shinji drops deep and plays between the lines, allowing Vardy to push further forward without becoming isolated and drawing space in the defence; not to mention running defenders ragged alongside Vardy, creating even more opportunities to break in behind. You're so obsessed with stats you can't or won't see the obvious, that okazaki is far better for us this season than ulloa.
NewEnglandFox Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 so last week ulloa was assisting on the basis of being in the box when the goal was scored, but shinji doesn't get credit unless he actively assisted it? It is obvious that shinjis style of play is far more compatible with vardys than ulloa, because shinji drops deep and plays between the lines, allowing Vardy to push further forward without becoming isolated and drawing space in the defence; not to mention running defenders ragged alongside Vardy, creating even more opportunities to break in behind. You're so obsessed with stats you can't or won't see the obvious, that okazaki is far better for us this season than ulloa. This is the other 5. Keep in mind Shinji has had ~500 more minutes on the pitch... You're stuck on the "theory of Shinji" and don't have to results to back it up. https://streamable.com/hoi2 https://streamable.com/lh26 https://streamable.com/kcr7 https://streamable.com/ko9x https://streamable.com/3rxs
americanfox Posted 27 January 2016 Posted 27 January 2016 This is the other 5. Keep in mind Shinji has had ~500 more minutes on the pitch... You're stuck on the "theory of Shinji" and don't have to results to back it up. https://streamable.com/hoi2 https://streamable.com/lh26 https://streamable.com/kcr7 https://streamable.com/ko9x https://streamable.com/3rxs You bring up really good points, but goals are rare enough it's not entirely fair (to either Ulloa or Shinji) to value them based off mostly that. I mean, in that sense, both have recorded four points (G + A). And both have similar WhoScored ratings, for whatever that's worth. If there was an easy way to retrieve/compute xG contributed per 90, I think that'd better answer the question. Kinda like Corsi For in hockey.
Chester Dontlie Posted 28 January 2016 Posted 28 January 2016 This is the other 5. Keep in mind Shinji has had ~500 more minutes on the pitch... You're stuck on the "theory of Shinji" and don't have to results to back it up. https://streamable.com/hoi2 https://streamable.com/lh26 https://streamable.com/kcr7 https://streamable.com/ko9x https://streamable.com/3rxs I like Leo, but the truth is he's been nowhere near Okazaki this season. If you like stats so much, perhaps you should try to calculate top 3 LCFC players in January based on Foxestalk post match ratings I bet the Japanese will be up there, maybe even #1. There's a reason why Ulloa didn't feature as much as him in the recent months. He's just much worse this season. Perhaps they are on similar level when it comes to attacking, but Ulloa's defending and pressing have been, to put it mildly, very poor when compared to Okazaki's. That said, I'm hopeful that Stoke performance will be some kind of turnaround for him. I think he has something to prove and perhaps he will.
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