EU referendum opinion poll.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

The UK is a country though, Europe isn't. The Scots had a vote on independence and decided against it.

 

The people who vote in council elections vote in national elections too. We've just had 27 heads of state telling us what we can't do and we can't vote against any of them.

We've directly elected one of those heads of state... so if you don't like the deal that head of state has obtained you can show our displeasure in June.

[Webbo]

We've directly elected one of those heads of state... so if you don't like the deal that head of state has obtained you can show our displeasure in June.

I shall be voting leave.

[LanguedocFox]

 

George Galloway on Twitter,

 

"If we leave the EU London can become the effective capital city of the world."

 

That doesn't sound like economic destruction to me.

 

 

 

It sounds like the words of a fvcking idiot, which it is.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

I shall be voting leave.

So there's democracy in action...

And yet if we do leave the EU and then in the following general election you vote for a party that doesn't end up forming the next government... doesn't the same 'EU' situation you describe create itself in the UK?

[Carl the Llama]

So there's democracy in action...

And yet if we do leave the EU and then in the following general election you vote for a party that doesn't end up forming the next government... doesn't the same 'EU' situation you describe create itself in the UK?

We must go deeper.

[Webbo]

So there's democracy in action...

And yet if we do leave the EU and then in the following general election you vote for a party that doesn't end up forming the next government... doesn't the same 'EU' situation you describe create itself in the UK?

I've answered that a couple of times in this thread already.

[Harry - LCFC]

The larger and more diverse an area you try to govern the more likely it is that you'll create discontent among your constituents. That, I think, sums up the problem that's being discussed over the last few pages. I don't think Carl is incorrect in saying that, just because we in the UK can't really affect its policy decisions, the EU is undemocratic. It just means we're a political minority. There are other aspects to the EU that I think are undemocratic but this isn't one of them.

 

If we, as a minority, feel sufficiently marginalised in the arrangement we're in then of course we ought to vote to release ourselves from it. 

 

 

Borders are what countries have, as does your home, you're against country borders but not your home. You're happy for folk to move without borders, but not from home to home - contradiction?

 

Should all the countries of the world join the EU?

 

I don't think that's a good comparison. Trespassing on a person's house is an infringement upon their property rights - you aren't allowed in unless they give you permission. That isn't the case so much with countries. Simply living there doesn't harm anyone, it's only when they start accessing public services that that starts to become the case.

[act smiley]

But I've no interest in telling any other country what to do.

 

It's not even vaguely comparable with a British election. We could have 100% of the population in this country vote for party X but if Europe vote the other way we'll be governed by party Y. Can you not grasp that?

How is that any different than what Scotland have? It's just part of being involved in something larger, not really undemocratic.

[Thracian]

Come to that, Leicester voted massively for Labour but we get those Tory gits outvoting and governing us. Leicester should secede from the UK so that it can get the govt it wants. 

Yes, just shows how flawed democracy can be! And still no recognising the work of Vaz and Janner among the town's statuary or our own Ultra for his services to the office of mayor! There's no justice.

[Alf Bentley]

The UK is a country though, Europe isn't. The Scots had a vote on independence and decided against it.

 

The people who vote in council elections vote in national elections too. We've just had 27 heads of state telling us what we can't do and we can't vote against any of them.

 

 

Leicestershire is not a country, but I assume that you accept the democratic legitimacy of Leicestershire County Council?

 

If the democratically elected European Parliament were the sole EU legislative body - legislating over agreed European issues - would you really accept its democratic legitimacy?

 

If we're democrats, we all have to accept the possibility of losing elections, at whatever level. The question is at what level institutions have democratic legitimacy that we accept, - and with what powers and over which issues.

 

You've previously expressed your concern at the EU being undemocratic (a concern I share), but my impression is that democracy is not the real issue for you. It is more that you think politics is best done at the level of the nation state. There's nothing inherently wrong (or right) about that, but it makes it a bit disingenuous to complain about the "undemocratic" EU if you don't believe in Europe-wide democracy in the first place.

 

If I thought that a democratic EU was really on offer and that it would apply the subsidiarity principle (power at the lowest possible level, from local community/council to region to nation state, so that only genuinely European issues were handled at EU level), then I'd definitely vote to stay in. I'm considering voting to leave partly because I'm not sure that scenario exists - whereas I suspect you're planning to vote to leave because you wouldn't want such a scenario to exist, as you favour the nation state. Strokes seems to be arguing a different case, one I can relate to better, in favour of a particular form of democratisation of the EU.

 

I'd like a lot more power devolved down from national to local government, too.

 

Of course there are 28 heads of state that we can't vote against, anyway, not just 27.....as we can't vote against the Queen as our hereditary head of state....not that I'd want to, as it happens (didn't have you down as a Republican, Webbo! ). 

[Webbo]

How is that any different than what Scotland have? It's just part of being involved in something larger, not really undemocratic.

I've already answered that.

[Webbo]

 

Of course there are 28 heads of state that we can't vote against, anyway, not just 27.....as we can't vote against the Queen as our hereditary head of state....not that I'd want to, as it happens (didn't have you down as a Republican, Webbo! ). 

I'm on the same side as George Galloway, I'm practically a communist.

[Bryn]

I don't believe anyone here truly has any comprehension of what either decision would truly entail to be frank.

I haven't got a clue which way to vote. I haven't seem a comprehensive breakdown of what the EU actually does. I'm inclined to think we do pretty well as a country and I'm not overly inclined to make huge changes when things are pretty good.

[Rincewind]

I'm on the same side as George Galloway, I'm practically a communist.

And I'm the Messiah.

[leicsmac]

I don't think that's a good comparison. Trespassing on a person's house is an infringement upon their property rights - you aren't allowed in unless they give you permission. That isn't the case so much with countries. Simply living there doesn't harm anyone, it's only when they start accessing public services that that starts to become the case.

 

Pretty much this, explained it better than I could.

 

Additionally, a friend of mine explained my viewpoint towards the EU much more eloquently than I could too. I'll leave it here.

"The problem I feel with Europe is that nothing worthwhile will get achieved by hundreds of different politicians in a room trying to agree on something. All with their own agendas, their own pressures and their own countries to think about first. As they all value their own country more than the EU they simply try and use they EU to get a better backing domestically. No accountant has put their name on the accounts for years as it is so corrupt.

I would love an EU or even better a world union but a full on balls deep; one John Lennon style...no countries, no nationalities, no state religion. At the moment the world is a competitive market with every country like a business trying to best the others. Going to more and more extreme measures to grow themselves comparatively and secure finite (and that is the important part) resources. If we were all one business then these things would matter much less. But this will never happen. Humans are too greedy and self-interested, and politics is much more about looking good than doing good.

 

So instead of the ideal we are left with a poor shadow of the ideal with all of the intent but none of the effectiveness."

[digitalalba]

I don't think that's a good comparison. Trespassing on a person's house is an infringement upon their property rights - you aren't allowed in unless they give you permission. That isn't the case so much with countries. Simply living there doesn't harm anyone, it's only when they start accessing public services that that starts to become the case.

Don't you think invading a country is infringement? Are you allowed into a country without permission?

[leicsmac]

Don't you think invading a country is infringement? Are you allowed into a country without permission?

 

Depends on the country.

 

But I'm thinking the point is being missed here as the point I'm making is that that kind of system (having your own patch of land to call your own) doesn't have to exist above anything more than an individual level. It's tied up so tightly in history and oral and written tradition that it does, that it's a fundamental part of the world..but it honestly doesn't, not today.

 

But it will continue to do so, precisely because of those who believe in it so strongly.

[digitalalba]

I don't believe anyone here truly has any comprehension of what either decision would truly entail to be frank.

I haven't got a clue which way to vote. I haven't seem a comprehensive breakdown of what the EU actually does. I'm inclined to think we do pretty well as a country and I'm not overly inclined to make huge changes when things are pretty good.

If you think that the unelected leader of the EU is better equipped to spend the £52 million the British tax payer gives them every single day, rather than the British PM, then vote to stay in.

 

If you think that the person we collectively elect to run our country should be in charge of the public purse, our laws and institutions, then vote leave.

 

The Remain campaign will tell you that jobs will be lost because we won't be able to negotiate a deal, this is a carefully constructed lie.

Theo Pathitis, ex Dragons Den, said on Question Time Thursday, that countries in the EU rely on us for more than 2 million jobs than we rely on them for.

Ipso-facto, they need us more than we need them. If we leave, we will have the negotiating power.

 

If we leave, and can introduce an Australian points based system, we can stop people coming into our country who will not make a positive economic contribution.

By the time the next General Election comes, for many reasons, we could be stronger than Germany, not least because they might have to bail out Greece and possibly Spain, whose unemployment is rocketing.

[Bryn]

If you think that the unelected leader of the EU is better equipped to spend the £52 million the British tax payer gives them every single day, rather than the British PM, then vote to stay in.

If you think that the person we collectively elect to run our country should be in charge of the public purse, our laws and institutions, then vote leave.

The Remain campaign will tell you that jobs will be lost because we won't be able to negotiate a deal, this is a carefully constructed lie.

Theo Pathitis, ex Dragons Den, said on Question Time Thursday, that countries in the EU rely on us for more than 2 million jobs than we rely on them for.

Ipso-facto, they need us more than we need them. If we leave, we will have the negotiating power.

If we leave, and can introduce an Australian points based system, we can stop people coming into our country who will not make a positive economic contribution.

By the time the next General Election comes, for many reasons, we could be stronger than Germany, not least because they might have to bail out Greece and possibly Spain, whose unemployment is rocketing.

Just 20% of British people voted for that cockwomble and his band of bastards and thieves and I wasn't one of them. That man who you so cherish advocates remaining in the EU. That logic is irrelevant to me. It'd be equally dismissed if any other party was in charge.

[RobHawk]

The EU referendum is really interesting when you consider a conservative leadership election is around the corner. Has Boris pulled a blinder by separating himself away from Cameron and those close to him, whilst also building supporting from the majority of the tory party. I found it especially interesting that he came out with the decision so soon after Gove too. 

 

Its interesting that it was only a few months ago he was saying he wasn't a leaver but now is.

 

Will be interesting to see what May and Gids do, you'd imagine they's stick by Cameron but who knows after Goves defection.

 

Interesting stuff, and i for one can only hope that they implode! 

[Jon the Hat]

I don't see Europe as a party political issue, and the commitment to a referendum has to an extent taken that out of the hands of Government.  Labour are already in bits so I guess the Tories will be seen to be split over the issue, hence why Cameron had to allow ministers to campaign whichever way they choose.

 

Personally am leaning towards leave. 

• I don't see the EU political project - a federal Europe - as the future for any but a few very closely linked countries.
• The British people in the main seem to want close ties with Europe - which we can of course retain, and the ability to have those ties with the commonwealth in particular and the wider world in general.  I am in that camp. 
• We have sod all influence in the EU, no one listens to us, and they haven't this time.
• We do have influence outside Europe and we should be free to use it, and leverage it.
• Cameron's "deal" is complete crap, we have no treaty change, and not a single power comes back to the UK from Brussels.
• The other member states don't care about the UK, and don't believe we could possibly leave.
• There is absolutely no chance that we will have restrictions on trade with EU countries if we leave - they need our services and our money.

[ramboacdc]

 

I don't see Europe as a party political issue, and the commitment to a referendum has to an extent taken that out of the hands of Government.  Labour are already in bits so I guess the Tories will be seen to be split over the issue, hence why Cameron had to allow ministers to campaign whichever way they choose.

 

Personally am leaning towards leave. 

• I don't see the EU political project - a federal Europe - as the future for any but a few very closely linked countries.
• The British people in the main seem to want close ties with Europe - which we can of course retain, and the ability to have those ties with the commonwealth in particular and the wider world in general.  I am in that camp. 
• We have sod all influence in the EU, no one listens to us, and they haven't this time.
• We do have influence outside Europe and we should be free to use it, and leverage it.
• Cameron's "deal" is complete crap, we have no treaty change, and not a single power comes back to the UK from Brussels.
• The other member states don't care about the UK, and don't believe we could possibly leave.
• There is absolutely no chance that we will have restrictions on trade with EU countries if we leave - they need our services and our money.

 

I knew me and you would be facing different ways in this. I cannot see anything good about leaving but take your points and look forward to 4 months of healthy debate with yourself!

[Guest MattP]

Carl I don't know how many times this needs to be explained, the British people who want out don't want to vote for a system where their elected MP'S become part of a group that has little influence on anything. We want to elect officials of whatever political persuasion to make 100% of the decisions made by Britain or for Britain, anything less isn't good enough.

Dissapointed with IDS already resorting to terrorism to try and scaremonger, everyone associated with leave should read Goves exusdus and go from there, the campaign for British independence has to revolve around sovereignty, control and the effects of what a future in the European Union could have on services like the NHS when things like TTIP arrive.

[Rincewind]

There have been some good things though in regards to workers rights, holiday pay maternity leave etc. They are the kind of things that I am worried about most. At the moment people have protection on a lot of issues and a person can call on the EU courts if they think they are being unfairly treated.

Although I am not sure if these things are part of the EU  and a separate body.

[Guest MattP]

Galloway just went a bit mental on the Daily Politics, accusing them of misleading him when he turns up and they confront him over his "arm linking with Farage

He made some interesting points re Labour and Corbyn, it seems so strange that when the EU will pretty much block you from implementation of the policies you want ie rail renationalisation, TTIP, fiscal policy similar to Syriza etc that you'll still vote to stay in it, he could be playing politics with this as much as some on the blue side.