leicsmac Posted 20 January 2017 Share Posted 20 January 2017 1 hour ago, Barky said: What aren't they going to do on climate change that you think they should do? Accept that it exists, whether man made or not, and take reasonable measures to anticipate and deal with the probable effects - like not hobbling the organization that has helped drastically reduce pollution in the US over the past few decades? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEnglandFox Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 6 hours ago, Parafox said: As someone else said ages ago, 100 million (or whatever the population is) and they came up with those two? Where were the credible candidates? Lost in the primary system. The R's choose the R and the D's choose the D and then they battle it out for all the marbles. We usually don't end up with candidates that can appeal across party lines from the primary. But to win the election it takes the middle road voters or turnout in the right areas to win. This election really was the perfect storm. The R's status quo got thrown out the window in the primaries with Trump. On the D side, they kept their status quo candidate who had to fight off a strong movement to push themselves farther left. I don't think that many people were that enthused about their candidate. I think there were a large amount of voters trying to stop the opposition, and not exactly help their own candidate. It's easy to find hypothetical match-ups saying that any other candidate could beat Trump or any other could beat Hillary but I simply don't believe the pollsters at the moment after the two last big UK elections and the US one. As this is politics, both parties will pretend they're not wounded while pointing out the opposition is. It's not just the issues, or the sometimes superficial allegiance to one party over another, but also the meta of it. I find the meta the worst. Our population is like 320M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireFox Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 5 hours ago, Parafox said: Then how can you express support or opposition if you wouldn't have voted? 4 hours ago, Parafox said: haha. yes but if you lived in North America and didn't vote you'd have no right of reply to criticise either one. Same as living here, having a vote, not exercising that right, then moaning about the result of the election. I don't live in a 'swing state', so my vote wouldn't have mattered though. Which is something I do 'moan' about. Regardless of if I had voted for Hillary or Trump, Illinois' electoral votes would have gone to Hillary anyway. Not that it will happen, but someone could become president by winning just over 25% of the popular vote (by winning 51% of the vote in just enough states to get the 270/538 electoral votes). (Actually, it is probably possible with less than 25%.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 The Churchill bust already back in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 Laurie Penny Tweet yesterday - "This is a terrifying speech. The biggest cheer of all came when Trump promised to wipe out 'Islamic' terrorism" I know she's towards the far end on the nutty left scale, but have some people lost their minds over this so much they find the thought of wanting to wipe out terrorism terrifying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Prussian Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 51 minutes ago, MattP said: Laurie Penny Tweet yesterday - "This is a terrifying speech. The biggest cheer of all came when Trump promised to wipe out 'Islamic' terrorism" I know she's towards the far end on the nutty left scale, but have some people lost their minds over this so much they find the thought of wanting to wipe out terrorism terrifying? One of the things that really got me during the election process was the amount of subjective and irrational hysteria by Social Democrats and their sympathizers in Europe who wanted to make everybody believe Armageddon was upon us with Trump in office, they really did my nuts in with their sectarian behaviour. I'm not a big fan of Trump either and don't consider myself tending on the right of the political spectrum, but at least I'll give him a year or two to see whether he puts his heart where his mouth is. I can always slag him off later. For now, we should all acknowledge he's the POTUSA and thus should be judged by his actions. Sentiments are irrelevant in the discussion. And that's even before you realize that there's little to no left-wing politics or parties in the US in the first place! Democrats and Republicans are only separated by the level of moderation in terms of conservatism. Imagine if there actually were Social Democrats, Green Party representatives or Socialists on a larger scale united in Washington, D.C. That'd make for great entertainment, because I'm pretty sure Democrats and Republicans would stand united against the "Communist Threat". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barky Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 1 hour ago, MattP said: Laurie Penny Tweet yesterday - "This is a terrifying speech. The biggest cheer of all came when Trump promised to wipe out 'Islamic' terrorism" I know she's towards the far end on the nutty left scale, but have some people lost their minds over this so much they find the thought of wanting to wipe out terrorism terrifying? I'd imagine it's not the thought of wanting to wipe out terrorism that is frightening but the way he might go about it. Clearly there's no easy, victim-free way of wiping out terrorism. It's not as if Obama was sitting on an easy solution but just couldn't be bothered to go through with it, and somehow I doubt Trump is a terrorism genius who is going to sweep in with a perfect solution that nobody else had thought of. He is promising to do 'something' about it, but what? Start more wars in the Middle East? Indiscriminately deport muslims? Give even more invasive powers to intelligence agencies? What is he going to do? You also have to question his motives in making that a priority given the relative rarity of terrorist attacks in the USA. Obviously any terrorist attack is one too many but the fact is that there will be more people murdered in the USA this weekend than were killed by terrorism in the whole of last year. What are Trump's reasons for placing such a large amount of his focus on a relatively minor problem? And what does that say about his ability to run the country effectively? I can see how comments like that are frightening to some because it shows how this is a president who is pandering to the dumb and to the ignorant, and that's probably not the best basis on which to run a country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMX11 Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 1 hour ago, MattP said: Laurie Penny Tweet yesterday - "This is a terrifying speech. The biggest cheer of all came when Trump promised to wipe out 'Islamic' terrorism" I know she's towards the far end on the nutty left scale, but have some people lost their minds over this so much they find the thought of wanting to wipe out terrorism terrifying? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj9dA6E3fJw When you mention Laurie Penny I have to watch this video...... Edit: Got to love Starkey's arm gestures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 2 minutes ago, SMX11 said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj9dA6E3fJw When you mention Laurie Penny I have to watch this video...... Edit: Got to love Starkey's arm gestures Absolutely fantastic this, if this carries we might even up at the point where even if Trump causes WW3 it would be worth it for the butthurt coming from Penny and her ilk. Well it won't be, but you get the point. The opening 90 seconds of Newsnight was terrific yesterday, a mix of him being inaugurated with clips of those who mocked him. Well worth a watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21st Century Fox Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 2 hours ago, MattP said: Laurie Penny Tweet yesterday - "This is a terrifying speech. The biggest cheer of all came when Trump promised to wipe out 'Islamic' terrorism" I know she's towards the far end on the nutty left scale, but have some people lost their minds over this so much they find the thought of wanting to wipe out terrorism terrifying? Ha no but the stupid naivety of suggesting he will wipe out Islamic based terrorism from the face of the earth is just token plonkerism. It's what he may be prepared to do to attempt to achieve this aim that's a bit scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 16 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: Ha no but the stupid naivety of suggesting he will wipe out Islamic based terrorism from the face of the earth is just token plonkerism. It's what he may be prepared to do to attempt to achieve this aim that's a bit scary. Then she should say that. Everyone knows Trump's promise is ridiculous, but to claim it's scary he wants to do something about it stretches the boundaries of bizarre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 2 hours ago, MC Prussian said: One of the things that really got me during the election process was the amount of subjective and irrational hysteria by Social Democrats and their sympathizers in Europe who wanted to make everybody believe Armageddon was upon us with Trump in office, they really did my nuts in with their sectarian behaviour. I'm not a big fan of Trump either and don't consider myself tending on the right of the political spectrum, but at least I'll give him a year or two to see whether he puts his heart where his mouth is. I can always slag him off later. For now, we should all acknowledge he's the POTUSA and thus should be judged by his actions. Sentiments are irrelevant in the discussion. And that's even before you realize that there's little to no left-wing politics or parties in the US in the first place! Democrats and Republicans are only separated by the level of moderation in terms of conservatism. Imagine if there actually were Social Democrats, Green Party representatives or Socialists on a larger scale united in Washington, D.C. That'd make for great entertainment, because I'm pretty sure Democrats and Republicans would stand united against the "Communist Threat". I've heard this argument a few times before. With respect, I'm going to assume that you are not massively threatened by the potential actions of this administration (the things it could do that would affect everyone in the world aside), so you have the luxury of assuming a wait and see stance. Others do not have that luxury, and they are well within their rights to use whatever legal methods they can to express and act on their displeasure. Judging the actions of this administration retroactively is fair, but there should also be as much challenge and scrutiny as possible proactively too, don't you think? Additionally, the social policIes are one thing, but I'm not sure it's really irrational to be a bit panicky regarding what this administration have lined up regarding environmental policy and the potential damage that could cause. Your point about there being two conservative parties in the US is spot on, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 31 minutes ago, MattP said: Then she should say that. Everyone knows Trump's promise is ridiculous, but to claim it's scary he wants to do something about it stretches the boundaries of bizarre. Yeah Matt but your focus in all this seems to be in all honesty pretty pro Trump - the balance of your posts doesn't really represent that you think Trumps promise to be ridiculous - just the idiocy of what you portray neoliberalism to be... it's like you are watching a show and enjoying it but moreover enjoy the misery others feel as a result of said show, which to me feels a bit awkward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 3 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: Yeah Matt but your focus in all this seems to be in all honesty pretty pro Trump - the balance of your posts doesn't really represent that you think Trumps promise to be ridiculous - just the idiocy of what you portray neoliberalism to be... it's like you are watching a show and enjoying it but moreover enjoy the misery others feel as a result of said show, which to me feels a bit awkward. Listen I'm a lot more optimistic about the Presidency than I was, given how much it could help us as a country when we go through a tough time. But I could never have voted for him, purely on the protectionism and anti free trade stance he has, these are the tried and tested failed economic methods of socialism. People also seem to forget that this is a total **** up (in fact I don't think anyone has even mentioned this amongst the outrage), we should be looking to advantage of America, potentially there could be a lot of wealth, business and creativity leaving the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 And when I have portrayed this as neo-liberalism at any point? Trump's policy so far is miles away from neo-liberalism or neo-conservatism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benguin Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 3 hours ago, MC Prussian said: One of the things that really got me during the election process was the amount of subjective and irrational hysteria by Social Democrats and their sympathizers in Europe who wanted to make everybody believe Armageddon was upon us with Trump in office, they really did my nuts in with their sectarian behaviour. I'm not a big fan of Trump either and don't consider myself tending on the right of the political spectrum, but at least I'll give him a year or two to see whether he puts his heart where his mouth is. I can always slag him off later. For now, we should all acknowledge he's the POTUSA and thus should be judged by his actions. Sentiments are irrelevant in the discussion. And that's even before you realize that there's little to no left-wing politics or parties in the US in the first place! Democrats and Republicans are only separated by the level of moderation in terms of conservatism. Imagine if there actually were Social Democrats, Green Party representatives or Socialists on a larger scale united in Washington, D.C. That'd make for great entertainment, because I'm pretty sure Democrats and Republicans would stand united against the "Communist Threat". Great post. It doesn't matter where your political compass points, Trump is president; trying to pretend he isn't or revolting against that fact is regressive to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 4 minutes ago, Benguin said: Great post. It doesn't matter where your political compass points, Trump is president; trying to pretend he isn't or revolting against that fact is regressive to say the least. See above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benguin Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 2 hours ago, SMX11 said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj9dA6E3fJw When you mention Laurie Penny I have to watch this video...... Edit: Got to love Starkey's arm gestures How to be a left wing nutjob: Step 1: Say something devoid of logic. Step 2: Personally attack the person you don't agree with. Step 3: Get corrected. Step 4: Switch to victim mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 3 minutes ago, Benguin said: How to be a left wing nutjob: Step 1: Say something devoid of logic. Step 2: Personally attack the person you don't agree with. Step 3: Get corrected. Step 4: Switch to victim mode. It's funny, but some of them have made a career out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 13 minutes ago, Benguin said: Great post. It doesn't matter where your political compass points, Trump is president; trying to pretend he isn't or revolting against that fact is regressive to say the least. 'we won get over it' is regressive. Protesting against what you rightly or wrongly perceive as injustice is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benguin Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 48 minutes ago, leicsmac said: I've heard this argument a few times before. With respect, I'm going to assume that you are not massively threatened by the potential actions of this administration (the things it could do that would affect everyone in the world aside), so you have the luxury of assuming a wait and see stance. Others do not have that luxury, and they are well within their rights to use whatever legal methods they can to express and act on their displeasure. Judging the actions of this administration retroactively is fair, but there should also be as much challenge and scrutiny as possible proactively too, don't you think? Additionally, the social policIes are one thing, but I'm not sure it's really irrational to be a bit panicky regarding what this administration have lined up regarding environmental policy and the potential damage that could cause. Your point about there being two conservative parties in the US is spot on, though. America's population is 320 million, that makes it impossible to elect a candidate representative of everyone's views. Most of the protest against Trump is not over the more extreme 'potential policies' such as deporting all the muslims etc. Despite opinions to the contrary, America does have extensive checks and balances and extreme policies are unlikely to go through. I personally think that the left has taken Trumps comments out of context and sensationalised then to seem worse anyway. Yes he's quite old and still has a bit of misogyny and racism within him but when you actually go to the actual comments he made and look at the context he said it in, I don't think this notion that 'the end of the world is nigh' can be substantiated. Let's see how he does and then if he starts doing things that significantly threat people, well invoke the 2nd amendment.... oh wait, liberals don't want guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benguin Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 5 minutes ago, MattP said: It's funny, but some of them have made a career out of it. I've often been tempted to just denounce all my views and become bat shit crazy because of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benguin Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 6 minutes ago, bovril said: 'we won get over it' is regressive. Protesting against what you rightly or wrongly perceive as injustice is not. Trump hasn't done anything yet though! Any social injustice in America at this stage is thanks to Obama's administration. Hence the post I appreciated rightly states to give it a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 21 January 2017 Share Posted 21 January 2017 There was a thing on East Midlands Today yesterday about a group in Derby city centre protesting about Donald Trump. What's the point? a) It's not our country, we don't get a say in it. b) Do they think Donald Trump is going to resign because some people in a small city in England that he's never heard of don't like him? It's just attention seeking. A bit pathetic in adults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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