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Vacamion

President Trump & the USA

By Vacamion, in General Chat

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DJ Barry Hammond

DJ Barry Hammond

Posted
Posted

 

Since it was questioned, here's some UK government benefit fraud statistics...

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/fraud-and-error-in-the-benefit-system-financial-year-201516-estimates

 

Of course, all figures in this area will be estimations, as will figures on tax avasion, illegal immigration etc.

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DJ Barry Hammond

DJ Barry Hammond

Posted
Posted

 

And as this thread is centred on US politics, here's some articles I've looked up on US welfare fraud;

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/08/just-how-wrong-is-conventional-wisdom-about-government-fraud/278690/

 

http://federalsafetynet.com/welfare-fraud.html

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/09/welfare-abuse-america_n_5289997.html

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted

I think that the arguments regarding benefit fraud and how to limit it sound very much like the arguments to combat voter fraud that 'collaterally' end up disenfranchising a lot of people from specific demographics. In the US, anyway.

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DJ Barry Hammond

DJ Barry Hammond

Posted
Posted

 

And on the subject of 'bias' in the media... the claims laid at the BBC's door by Thracian are quite tiresome, but it seems he's not going to move from this view.

 

Yet when you consider the privately funded media out there who can and will display clear bias based on their political leanings and that many people won't realise this is part of their reporting, we surely have to be thankful that in this country we have an outlet that on the whole sets out to be impartial and is very different from other commercial or state sponsored outlets.

 

Presenting facts is largely impossible in politics because a lot is open to interpretation and ones own considered view - but in my view what the BBC political programmes do very well is give politicians a platform to air their views on policy and then ask searching questions to try and quanitfy reasons for that position.

 

I also dare say, it would be worrying if the BBC wasn't accused of bias a minority on both sides of the political stream (like happens now) because if it wasn't you'd have to ponder whether it was actually doing its job? 

 

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Webbo

Webbo

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

And on the subject of 'bias' in the media... the claims laid at the BBC's door by Thracian are quite tiresome, but it seems he's not going to move from this view.

 

Yet when you consider the privately funded media out there who can and will display clear bias based on their political leanings and that many people won't realise this is part of their reporting, we surely have to be thankful that in this country we have an outlet that on the whole sets out to be impartial and is very different from other commercial or state sponsored outlets.

 

Presenting facts is largely impossible in politics because a lot is open to interpretation and ones own considered view - but in my view what the BBC political programmes do very well is give politicians a platform to air their views on policy and then ask searching questions to try and quanitfy reasons for that position.

 

I also dare say, it would be worrying if the BBC wasn't accused of bias a minority on both sides of the political stream (like happens now) because if it wasn't you'd have to ponder whether it was actually doing its job? 

 

Who doesn't realise that "privately funded media" isn't biased? Honestly, is there a single adult who doesn't realise that every newspaper has an agenda?

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thursday_next

thursday_next

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Who doesn't realise that "privately funded media" isn't biased? Honestly, is there a single adult who doesn't realise that every newspaper has an agenda?

 

I believe every word that the 'Daily Express' tells me about the forthcoming weather. One day they're going to be right, and Britain will be colder than outer space.  

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Webbo

Webbo

Posted
Posted
58 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Yes, I believe there will be quite a few.

But you've never met one.

51 minutes ago, thursday_next said:

 

I believe every word that the 'Daily Express' tells me about the forthcoming weather. One day they're going to be right, and Britain will be colder than outer space.  

So that's a no then?

 

The ironic thing is, is that Donald Trump is 99.9% reported negatively, including the Mail. The only person on here who you could say has not been influenced by the media is Thracian.

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Thracian

Thracian

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Line-X said:

How?

 

Who? Examples?

 

We're still talking UKIP right?

 

The British electorate were woefully ill informed on both sides of the referendum vote. The Brexit vote was ultimately championed by a narrow margin predicated largely by social media meme and the bias in the r/w tabloid press which you strangely and rather hypocritically remain impervious to. I found the rhetoric from the Brexit camp to be as disingenuous as it was shameful. Pointedly, I thought the most compelling argument to leave came from the left and the most persuasive argument behind Remain emanated from voices on the right. 

 

Breaking News - UKIP in deceitful public antagonism victimisation shock.

 

irony1
ˈʌɪrəni/
noun
 
  1. the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
    "‘Don't go overboard with the gratitude,’ he rejoined with heavy irony"
    synonyms: sarcasm, sardonicism, dryness, causticity, sharpness, acerbity, acid, bitterness, trenchancy, mordancy, cynicism; More
     
     
     
     
       
    • a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result.
      plural noun: ironies
      "the irony is that I thought he could help me"
      synonyms: paradox, paradoxical nature, incongruity, incongruousness, peculiarity
      "the irony of the situation hit her"
         
    • a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character's words or actions is clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.
      noun: dramatic irony; plural noun: tragic irony

 

If you had said 'some of the people' we may have actually agreed on something. Press aside I do agree that the paint by numbers social engineering of the 80s and 90s was somewhat of an idealised 'hackney'-ed pastiche coming from a rather limited palette. 

 

However, in respect of the press, let's remind ourselves of what you said again...

 

Yeah, that Rothermere guy or Murdoch bloke and their incessant egalitarian values, always banging on about tolerance and the push for progressive social reform. Bloody commies.

What a strident individual you are. And so intense.

 

You print your views on why the Brexit vote transpired - with the clear majority you understate - but your reasoning was lost on me because I couldn't identify with it at all.

 

I'm all for a trading market but have never been much for gangs of bully-boys - in suits or otherwise - and that's what the Junck Male and his federalist cronies represent...."our way or no way" if they can fashion it. Cunning, conniving sods

 

So all the self-serving bullshit of the Brexit/Remain television debates never had a chance of swaying my view on the subject or a good many more it the truth's ever written.

 

 

 

 

 

.   

 

 

             

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SpacedX

SpacedX

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Thracian said:

What a strident individual you are. And so intense.             

That post you quoted...I guess you missed the irony part?

 

Like many dictatorial pharisees I've encountered over the years, you seem to struggle with the notion of an opposing viewpoint. It works both ways Thracian...as does bias in the media which you seem oblivious to.

 

10 minutes ago, Thracian said:

You print your views on why the Brexit vote transpired - with the clear majority you understate - but your reasoning was lost on me because I couldn't identify with it at all.      

What "clear majority" was that? ...Remind me. 

 

Reasoning? - about what? I didn't give any. I didn't divulge to you where my vote lay. I found the campaigning on both sides at times distasteful and disingenuous but also found that there were compelling arguments coming from both camps.

 

Genuinely though, I think you'll find this an interesting read. More bias?

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/11/vote-leave-campaign-wasn-t-clever-it-thinks-it-was

 

28 minutes ago, Thracian said:

I'm all for a trading market but have never been much for gangs of bully-boys - in suits or otherwise - and that's what the Junck Male and his federalist cronies represent...."our way or no way" if they can fashion it. Cunning, conniving sods

             

I do agree with you about Juncker - a very dubious opportunistic character with a highly chequered past. Perhaps his greatest downfall was to underestimate and downplay, if not, disregard the historical significance of national sentiment. 

 

However, I do feel that the tragedy about Brexit is that it transpires that many of the people that voted for it don't seem to fully understand why, or what has been lost. Look no further than the South Wales electorate. 

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Thracian

Thracian

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

And on the subject of 'bias' in the media... the claims laid at the BBC's door by Thracian are quite tiresome, but it seems he's not going to move from this view.

 

Yet when you consider the privately funded media out there who can and will display clear bias based on their political leanings and that many people won't realise this is part of their reporting, we surely have to be thankful that in this country we have an outlet that on the whole sets out to be impartial and is very different from other commercial or state sponsored outlets.

 

Presenting facts is largely impossible in politics because a lot is open to interpretation and ones own considered view - but in my view what the BBC political programmes do very well is give politicians a platform to air their views on policy and then ask searching questions to try and quanitfy reasons for that position.

 

I also dare say, it would be worrying if the BBC wasn't accused of bias a minority on both sides of the political stream (like happens now) because if it wasn't you'd have to ponder whether it was actually doing its job? 

 

Asking the most searching questions doesn't require the inquisitor to express a view. Merely to ask another question. Marr is one of the best at doing that while others are so determined to make their on point or spring their own purpose-built trap, they interrupt at every juncture in a desperate effort to keep the conversation going the way they want.

 

I like questions and straightforward answers. I don't need the BBC or anyone else to be involved in forming my opinion. I'll happily change my mind but it would most likely be based on facts, analysis and specific, defensible, reasoning rather than a broadcaster's two-pennyworth.

 

 

 

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SpacedX

SpacedX

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Thracian said:

Asking the most searching questions doesn't require the inquisitor to express a view. Merely to ask another question. Marr is one of the best at doing that while others are so determined to make their on point or spring their own purpose-built trap, they interrupt at every juncture in a desperate effort to keep the conversation going the way they want.

 

I like questions and straightforward answers. I don't need the BBC or anyone else to be involved in forming my opinion. I'll happily change my mind but it would most likely be based on facts, analysis and specific, defensible, reasoning rather than a broadcaster's two-pennyworth.

 

 

 

Actually, I do understand and can relate to what you are saying  - but I don't think that Marr is pursuing or adhering to any veiled editorial agenda. I do find the prescriptive aggressive style of interviewing on Radio 4 Today programme for example as counter productive, highbrow and overbearing.

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Thracian

Thracian

Posted
Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Line-X said:

That post you quoted...I guess you missed the irony part?

 

Like many dictatorial pharisees I've encountered over the years, you seem to struggle with the notion of an opposing viewpoint. It works both ways Thracian...as does bias in the media which you seem oblivious to.

 

What "clear majority" was that? ...Remind me. 

 

Reasoning? - about what? I didn't give any. I didn't divulge to you where my vote lay. I found the campaigning on both sides at times distasteful and disingenuous but also found that there were compelling arguments coming from both camps.

 

Genuinely though, I think you'll find this an interesting read. More bias?

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/11/vote-leave-campaign-wasn-t-clever-it-thinks-it-was

 

I do agree with you about Juncker - a very dubious opportunistic character with a highly chequered past. Perhaps his greatest downfall was to underestimate and downplay, if not, disregard the historical significance of national sentiment. 

 

However, I do feel that the tragedy about Brexit is that it transpires that many of the people that voted for it don't seem to fully understand why, or what has been lost. Look no further than the South Wales electorate. 

Who's oblivious to bias? I see it constantly. In all sorts of media aspects. Some papers like the Sun or Mirror I never read.

And bias/agenderism/political correctness hits me like a body blow whether it's in a documentary, an advert, a news feature, political interview or anything else.

For instance have you noticed how many adverts show black guys and white girls but rarely white guys and black or coloured girls.

Where am I represented?. I had a jet black girlfriend for two years as a kid and thought the world of her. And Asian girlfriends.  

Others increasingly show black guys in positions of power or authority. That's not accidental its agenderism. Cultural manipulation. Like positive discrimination which might sound sweetened but is discrimination nonetheless.

It all seeks to improve the profile or one and diminish the importance of another. There's nothing random about it but such things are all introduced subtlely. Like campaigns or new legislation against dangerous dogs. There's always a few dangerous dog stories in the media beforehand to condition people.            

The above are just examples, the manipulation is constant and takes so many forms.   

Edited by Thracian
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Thracian

Thracian

Posted
Posted
Just now, Line-X said:

Actually, I do understand and can relate to what you are saying  - but I don't think that Marr is pursuing or adhering to any veiled editorial agenda. I do find the prescriptive aggressive style of interviewing on Radio 4 Today programme for example as counter productive, highbrow and overbearing.

Marr's not a problem at all - his own bias is out there in the open. But it's not always the case.   

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Nick

Nick

Posted
Posted

Any chance of this thread not being about Andrew Marr, the apparent damage done to Britain by ethnic minorities and Brexit but it's all okay because Thracian once had not just a black girlfriend but a jet black girlfriend so everything's fine. (Providing of course he doesn't have to see a disproportionate amount of images of her dating a white man in the media which would be a body blow of political correctness) 

 

Sort it out Mods.

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Rincewind

Rincewind

Posted
Posted

I find some of Trump's appointments bizare. A global warning denier in charge of environment and an anti evolutionist in charge of education. What next, a vigilante in charge of prison reform?

It's not just his views that worry me but his refusal to listen to others and look at things from different angles believing that he cannot be wrong. He asked for an investigation into terrorists and the threat from certain countries. When they came back showing that the counties he has earmarked for a ban showed no threat he said it was wrong and asked for it to be done until it came out right.

Unfortunately the world is full of people like him.

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Smudge

Smudge

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Rincewind said:

I find some of Trump's appointments bizare. A global warning denier in charge of environment and an anti evolutionist in charge of education. What next, a vigilante in charge of prison reform?

It's not just his views that worry me but his refusal to listen to others and look at things from different angles believing that he cannot be wrong. He asked for an investigation into terrorists and the threat from certain countries. When they came back showing that the counties he has earmarked for a ban showed no threat he said it was wrong and asked for it to be done until it came out right.

Unfortunately the world is full of people like him.

You're quite right but I'm not sure why your surprised, he campaigned on a litany of lies and smoke screens.

 

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Rincewind

Rincewind

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, Smudge said:

You're quite right but I'm not sure why your surprised, he campaigned on a litany of lies and smoke screens.

 

The further a lie travels the more it is believed. World leaders work on that principle, even in this country and they have the powerful, money people, media and gullible to help them.

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Smudge

Smudge

Posted
Posted
Just now, Rincewind said:

The further a lie travels the more it is believed. World leaders work on that principle, even in this country and they have the powerful, money people, media and gullible to help them.

I personally don't think so. Given enough rope etc.

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Nick

Nick

Posted
Posted

So in todays saga, even FOX have managed to print Letterman suggesting that TV Show hosts have an obligation to challenge Trump:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/03/06/david-letterman-late-night-hosts-have-obligation-to-challenge-trump.html

 

Here's how Trumps new travel ban differs from the last one:

 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner/trump-new-travel-order?utm_term=.npJX0LwAQ#.hkJ12Y9RJ

 

The Guardians (soon to be labelled fake) news of the day reports on the historical Central Park 5 case and the racially charged rise of a demagogue.... (Guess who?) 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/17/central-park-five-donald-trump-jogger-rape-case-new-york

 

Meanwhile NBC is wondering if Obama might have grounds to sue him for libel...

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/analysis-does-obama-have-grounds-sue-trump-libel-n729376

 

And lastly someone from Atlantic Magazine has done a rather poor 'drive by' more than 'drive through,' psychological profile of the POTUS, however there are only a couple of bits really worth reading in my assessment and the first two thousand words can be read but with no refunds for time owed:

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/06/the-mind-of-donald-trump/480771/

 

 

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