President Trump & the USA

[Oxfordfox83]

2 hours ago, toddybad said:

If there were a million protestors (I don't think there would be btw) he'd simply claim it as a huge turnout for him. 

I think our police would allow large banners and obvious dissent in a way American police would not.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Oxfordfox83 said:

I think our police would allow large banners and obvious dissent in a way American police would not.

Yeah but he's still say it was just pockets of protestors amongst a huge pro Trump crowd.

 

I mean he denied having a smaller inauguration that Obama despite side by side pictures existing.

[leicsmac]

I'd like to see a state visit, purely because he can and will get jeered pretty much everywhere he goes and it'll be interesting to see how his ego deals with that.

 

And in all honesty, I think that whether he sticks to London or goes elsewhere that will still happen - if someone can pick a decent-sized place in the UK where a significant number of people like him more than dislike him then I'd be happy to hear about it.

[Webbo]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I'd like to see a state visit, purely because he can and will get jeered pretty much everywhere he goes and it'll be interesting to see how his ego deals with that.

 

And in all honesty, I think that whether he sticks to London or goes elsewhere that will still happen - if someone can pick a decent-sized place in the UK where a significant number of people like him more than dislike him then I'd be happy to hear about it.

It doesn't matter where it's held, there are thousands itching to protest and they'll be prepared to travel.

[Guest MattP]

35 minutes ago, Oxfordfox83 said:

While that might be true, you'd have to be a pretty special kind of idiot to think Trump was a good thing, and acceptable president, or anything but a criminal escaping conviction through the ability to hire astonishingly expensive lawyers.

I don't think it's upto me or you to decide what's an "acceptable" American president, that's for the people of that nation to decide. Trump will be good for some people, he'll be bad for others, just like any other leader or any other nation.

 

If you want to blame people for the arrival of President Trump maybe we should start with the Democrats, they picked an awful candidate in Hillary, for years they completely ignored the poorest Americans on the rust belt which was literally the core vote and were more bothered about putting a man in a women's toilet than into a place of work to provide for his family.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

It doesn't matter where it's held, there are thousands itching to protest and they'll be prepared to travel.

There's that too.

 

Mind you, I think Matt made the point that if the UK Government can bundle away some Chinese exiles to appease the brutal folks running the show there right now they could probably at least mitigate things for this one too.

[Guest MattP]

35 minutes ago, Oxfordfox83 said:

I think our police would allow large banners and obvious dissent in a way American police would not.

Have you forgotten the visit of Xi Jinping? The protestors were lumped over a mile away and the route was filled with paid people from the Chinese embassy all clapping an waving.

 

I don't think we would have that, but if you think the public are going to get near Trump whilst the US security services are in charge of security along with our own you are deluded.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

I don't think it's upto me or you to decide what's an "acceptable" American president, that's for the people of that nation to decide. Trump will be good for some people, he'll be bad for others, just like any other leader or any other nation.

 

If you want to blame people for the arrival of President Trump maybe we should start with the Democrats, they picked an awful candidate in Hillary, for years they completely ignored the poorest Americans on the rust belt which was literally the core vote and were more bothered about putting a man in a women's toilet than into a place of work to provide for his family.

1

This is a point that has been made by yourself more than once. Do you really consider it to be such a hot potato considering the number of sexual assaults by trans folks in bathrooms is around zero, and the amount by just blokes is rather more?

 

Certainly agree that the Dems focused on how bad Trump would be rather than what they themselves would do and that's not a winning strategy, though.

 

Also, this popped up recently:

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42969566

 

Though I don't like the word, can you get much more tinpot?

[Guest MattP]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

This is a point that has been made by yourself more than once. Do you really consider it to be such a hot potato considering the number of sexual assaults by trans folks in bathrooms is around zero, and the amount by just blokes is rather more?

 

Certainly agree that the Dems focused on how bad Trump would be rather than what they themselves would do and that's not a winning strategy, though.

 

Also, this popped up recently:

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42969566

 

Though I don't like the word, can you get much more tinpot?

Not a hot potato, I'd say more symbolic of the way the left in the US was prepared to leave the poorest behind in pursuit of identity politics, similar thing to Brexit here. The wohite working class have been the poorest performing in schools for years but still everything was geared towards minority rights when it came to things like university places.

 

I quite like a military parade myself, I went to watch in France when I was a kid, we would never do it here though as we are too reserved. Good idea politically though, will play to his followers well and long term any future President who cancels it will automatically be described as being anti-US/armed forces.

 

One thing I've noticed recently is the Whitehouse seems to be more full of thinkers, all the lunatics like Bannon etc are long gone and seem to have been replaced by people who actually have some experience.

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Not a hot potato, I'd say more symbolic of the way the left in the US was prepared to leave the poorest behind in pursuit of identity politics, similar thing to Brexit here. The wohite working class have been the poorest performing in schools for years but still everything was geared towards minority rights when it came to things like university places.

 

I quite like a military parade myself, I went to watch in France when I was a kid, we would never do it here though as we are too reserved. Good idea politically though, will play to his followers well and long term any future President who cancels it will automatically be described as being anti-US/armed forces.

 

One thing I've noticed recently is the Whitehouse seems to be more full of thinkers, all the lunatics like Bannon etc are long gone and seem to have been replaced by people who actually have some experience.

Yeah, the Dems certainly didn't read the room, as we've discussed before - though I think identity is coming to the fore again. The midterms later this year will tell us more about that.

 

Honestly, military parades with your soldiers lockstepping through the streets followed by missile trucks just seems pure tinpot to me - something a third world Generalissimo or a Cold War communist state would do and has done. Why the insecurity with your own position that you have to show off all your shiny toys when you've already got the biggest and most advanced military force on the planet?  I'm sure it'll play to his base but it's not going to win any more votes than he has now - and he needs those.

 

You might be right on the thinkers, but again - the Congress elections happening later this year will tell us a lot about the prevailing mood.

[Guest MattP]

20 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, the Dems certainly didn't read the room, as we've discussed before - though I think identity is coming to the fore again. The midterms later this year will tell us more about that.

 

Honestly, military parades with your soldiers lockstepping through the streets followed by missile trucks just seems pure tinpot to me - something a third world Generalissimo or a Cold War communist state would do and has done. Why the insecurity with your own position that you have to show off all your shiny toys when you've already got the biggest and most advanced military force on the planet?  I'm sure it'll play to his base but it's not going to win any more votes than he has now - and he needs those.

 

You might be right on the thinkers, but again - the Congress elections happening later this year will tell us a lot about the prevailing mood.

I'm not fully up on the elections yet but aren't they ones where the Republicans are likely to lose anyway? Ones that Obama lost during the mid-term and won back easily come election time?

 

I don't think a military parade makes you tinpot, I've never seen France described as that because of what they do, countries that tend to get described as such are often described as them because they are, like North Korea.

[Smudge]

16 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, the Dems certainly didn't read the room, as we've discussed before - though I think identity is coming to the fore again. The midterms later this year will tell us more about that.

 

Honestly, military parades with your soldiers lockstepping through the streets followed by missile trucks just seems pure tinpot to me - something a third world Generalissimo or a Cold War communist state would do and has done. Why the insecurity with your own position that you have to show off all your shiny toys when you've already got the biggest and most advanced military force on the planet?  I'm sure it'll play to his base but it's not going to win any more votes than he has now - and he needs those.

 

You might be right on the thinkers, but again - the Congress elections happening later this year will tell us a lot about the prevailing mood.

My take on the prevailing moods is that the economy is robust, unemployment is down, wages are rising. handing the reins back to Democrats might be a reversal of the new improvements to their lot. The tax cuts are about to take effect and there's nothing like the smell of green in your wallet. 

 

[leicsmac]

45 minutes ago, MattP said:

I'm not fully up on the elections yet but aren't they ones where the Republicans are likely to lose anyway? Ones that Obama lost during the mid-term and won back easily come election time?

 

I don't think a military parade makes you tinpot, I've never seen France described as that because of what they do, countries that tend to get described as such are often described as them because they are, like North Korea.

With the House elections, all 435 seats are up for grabs. In the Senate the Repubs currently have a majority of one, there are 33 seats up for grabs, and the Dems have 24 seats being challenged as opposed to the Repubs 8 so the Dems have more defending to do. Quite frankly, though the polls are all over the place so I wouldn't want to make any kind of prediction about how it's all going to turn out.

 

If the Dems do however win majorities in the House and Senate, they can essentially hamstring Trump for at least two years.

 

Regarding military parades, I still don't see the appeal (the French are just insecure rather than being tinpot per se ) or the necessity (it's not going to win him votes outside of anyone who wasn't going to vote for him anyway.)

 

 

42 minutes ago, Smudge said:

My take on the prevailing moods is that the economy is robust, unemployment is down, wages are rising. handing the reins back to Democrats might be a reversal of the new improvements to their lot. The tax cuts are about to take effect and there's nothing like the smell of green in your wallet. 

 

This is operating on the assumption that the economy will be the go-to issue this time round - yes, it's important and yes, it's what won for Trump in 2016, but given all that has happened, it would be easy for the focus to shift. For instance, black and Latino unemployment is really low right now but then so are the approval rates for Trump from both demographics, which implies that they either don't think him responsible for an economic recovery or if he is they don't care.

 

The Dems failed to read what was important in 2016, the Repubs might be about to make the same mistake now. 

 

As an addendum, I've said this before but I'll repeat it - Trump, frankly, needs black and Latino voters to either come out for him in sizable numbers or to stay at home and not vote at all (as in 2016). Right now, given the more recent special elections that have been occurring, neither of those things are happening.

 

Of course, again it might be different once the big one rolls round so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[leicsmac]

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/planned-parenthood-had-a-turbulent-decade-but-that-hasnt-changed-americans-views-of-it/

 

Also, an interesting look at how Americans view a few cultural issues. Seems to back up the point that Benguin (I think) made to me a while back that all but the most fundie religious folks seem to be backing down on gay marriage and cannabis, but abortion is still an issue that many folks will go to the mattresses for.

[Smudge]

5 hours ago, leicsmac said:

 

This is operating on the assumption that the economy will be the go-to issue this time round - yes, it's important and yes, it's what won for Trump in 2016, but given all that has happened, it would be easy for the focus to shift. For instance, black and Latino unemployment is really low right now but then so are the approval rates for Trump from both demographics, which implies that they either don't think him responsible for an economic recovery or if he is they don't care.

 

The Dems failed to read what was important in 2016, the Repubs might be about to make the same mistake now. 

 

As an addendum, I've said this before but I'll repeat it - Trump, frankly, needs black and Latino voters to either come out for him in sizable numbers or to stay at home and not vote at all (as in 2016). Right now, given the more recent special elections that have been occurring, neither of those things are happening.

 

Of course, again it might be different once the big one rolls round so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I wasn't arguing with you Mac you may be right, however, in the last two weeks I have seen a softening on "What a prat the President is" to "Hmm things seem to be looking up"  

 

Having lived here and seen Bush re-elected and Trump take office I have a somewhat jaundiced view of what future probabilities are worth based on current feelings.

 

Edit: I found this later https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/taking-back-the-house-will-be-harder-than-democrats-think/2018/02/06/ea027aca-0a93-11e8-8b0d-891602206fb7_story.html?utm_term=.c1b0270f0eab

Edited 7 February 2018 by Smudge

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Smudge said:

I wasn't arguing with you Mac you may be right, however, in the last two weeks I have seen a softening on "What a prat the President is" to "Hmm things seem to be looking up"  

 

Having lived here and seen Bush re-elected and Trump take office I have a somewhat jaundiced view of what future probabilities are worth based on current feelings.

 

Edit: I found this later https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/taking-back-the-house-will-be-harder-than-democrats-think/2018/02/06/ea027aca-0a93-11e8-8b0d-891602206fb7_story.html?utm_term=.c1b0270f0eab

Yeah, absolutely agree it isn't anywhere near a slam dunk and the Dems still have a lot of work to do. 

 

Can also certainly understand, having now lived here for a while myself, where that jaundice comes from when you see the divisions based on so many different factors - as well as the tactics for voter suppression and gerrymandering that exist.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

Did i see someone suggest we don’t do military parades? 

 

Whats Trooping of the Colour and the various military airshows and parade type things we do over here then? 

 

Similar to the comment about America not doing dissent - I’m thinking this is a country that recently had a white supremacy group face off against hoards of anti-white supremacy protestors, has a black lives matter campaign which has involved major athletes kneeling to national anthem (which is a much bigger deal over there) and I suspect a country that has had a significant number of assisnated Presidents.

 

I think they do do dissent over there, just like we do parade’s over here.

[Buce]

5 hours ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Did i see someone suggest we don’t do military parades? 

 

Whats Trooping of the Colour and the various military airshows and parade type things we do over here then? 

 

Similar to the comment about America not doing dissent - I’m thinking this is a country that recently had a white supremacy group face off against hoards of anti-white supremacy protestors, has a black lives matter campaign which has involved major athletes kneeling to national anthem (which is a much bigger deal over there) and I suspect a country that has had a significant number of assisnated Presidents.

 

I think they do do dissent over there, just like we do parade’s over here.

 

Trooping of the Colour is a traditional pageant. Nothing like the dick waving exercise of showing off your military might. 

Air shows are exactly that. Do you think a refurbished Spitfire and the Red Arrows inspire fear in anyone?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

Trooping of the Colour is a traditional pageant. Nothing like the dick waving exercise of showing off your military might. 

Air shows are exactly that. Do you think a refurbished Spitfire and the Red Arrows inspire fear in anyone?

 

Do parades inspire fear in anyone these days? I would have thought the main objective these days was the conditioning for the native population?

[Buce]

12 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Do parades inspire fear in anyone these days? I would have thought the main objective these days was the conditioning for the native population?

 

The two things are not mutually exclusive. 

[leicsmac]

5 hours ago, Buce said:

 

The two things are not mutually exclusive. 

This.

 

Making the home population afraid and/or jingoistic about your military might is a good step to keep them prepared for the next step, viz. using those shiny toys.

 

Like I said, showing off modern equipment in a nonironic fashion in the streets just screams insecurity.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

8 hours ago, leicsmac said:

This.

 

Making the home population afraid and/or jingoistic about your military might is a good step to keep them prepared for the next step, viz. using those shiny toys.

 

Like I said, showing off modern equipment in a nonironic fashion in the streets just screams insecurity.

 

Hegemony (I spelt it correctly this time... I think)

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Hegemony (I spelt it correctly this time... I think)

You did, but I'm not sure of your point here?

[Guest MattP]

Can't believe how big Jordan Peterson has become in the space of weeks.

 

Went into Waterstones today and his new book is all over the prime table near the tills, will be in the best sellers list this week I imagine.

Edited 9 February 2018 by MattP

[David Guiza]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Can't believe how big Jordan Peterson has become in the space of weeks.

 

Went into Waterstones today and his new book is all over the prime table near the tills, will be in the best sellers list this week I imagine.

You may be right, although I believe individual Waterstones chains design their displays specific to the area. The one in Leamington for example is generally littered with classics and academia for the large student population.

 

I've always thought that if I had to work in retail then Waterstones would be top of the list of ideal jobs, though I imagine the job-spec is effectively the same as a librarian.