President Trump & the USA

[Vacamion]

1 hour ago, MC Prussian said:

Btw, he looks rather worn-out for a 66-year old.

 

No sarcasm, I cackled at this observation.   

 

 

Tip of the cap. 

 

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to respond to my post in so much detail. 

 

The point I was trying to make was that Trump has either been really unlucky, or his administration is a bit, err, swampy. 

 

And his reactions and pronouncements about Mueller don't reassure me that he isn't sweating. 

 

Plenty of circumstantial evidence for Trump / Russia. 

 

We shall see what the coming weeks and months bring, won't we. 

 

And as for the MAGA hat thing, last time I was there, it felt like those wearing it were sending a message and it's not one I'm sure I felt at ease with. 

 

 

[Vacamion]

. 

Edited 7 March 2019 by Vacamion
Double post

[Buce]

 

Manafort gets less than four years:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/08/scathing-indictment-paul-manafort-sentencing-draws-accusations-of-privilege

 

White privilege? Rich privilege? Or just plain old corruption?

[Carl the Llama]

22 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Manafort gets less than four years:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/08/scathing-indictment-paul-manafort-sentencing-draws-accusations-of-privilege

 

White privilege? Rich privilege? Or just plain old corruption?

Reward for information maybe?

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

17 hours ago, Vacamion said:

 

No sarcasm, I cackled at this observation.   

 

 

Tip of the cap. 

 

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to respond to my post in so much detail. 

 

The point I was trying to make was that Trump has either been really unlucky, or his administration is a bit, err, swampy. 

 

And his reactions and pronouncements about Mueller don't reassure me that he isn't sweating. 

 

Plenty of circumstantial evidence for Trump / Russia. 

 

We shall see what the coming weeks and months bring, won't we. 

 

And as for the MAGA hat thing, last time I was there, it felt like those wearing it were sending a message and it's not one I'm sure I felt at ease with. 

 

 

People have been assaulted for wearing Maga hats, worth a mention

[Buce]

11 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

People have been assaulted for wearing Maga hats, worth a mention

 

People should be assaulted for wearing MAGA hats.

 

It's a crime against fashion.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

13 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

People should be assaulted for wearing MAGA hats.

 

It's a crime against fashion.

That's a fair point

[MC Prussian]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

Manafort gets less than four years:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/08/scathing-indictment-paul-manafort-sentencing-draws-accusations-of-privilege

 

White privilege? Rich privilege? Or just plain old corruption?

Worth mentioning that he'll get another sentence from the DC District Court next week that'll be added to these four years.

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

Manafort gets less than four years:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/08/scathing-indictment-paul-manafort-sentencing-draws-accusations-of-privilege

 

White privilege? Rich privilege? Or just plain old corruption?

Wealth if anything. OJ Simpson and Michael Jackson, Kobe Bryant, R Kelly etc etc

 

America is a country where being black is no barrier to avoiding justice providing you are rich.

[leicsmac]

3 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Manafort gets less than four years:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/08/scathing-indictment-paul-manafort-sentencing-draws-accusations-of-privilege

 

White privilege? Rich privilege? Or just plain old corruption?

 

3 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

Reward for information maybe?

 

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Wealth if anything. OJ Simpson and Michael Jackson, Kobe Bryant, R Kelly etc etc

 

America is a country where being black is no barrier to avoiding justice providing you are rich.

Bit of all of these IMO.

 

Being white, for the most part, makes it easier to deal with the justice system in the US.

Being rich makes it still easier.

Probably singing like a canary for future cases makes it still easier.

[Guest MattP]

19 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Being white, for the most part, makes it easier to deal with the justice system in the US.

Evidence for this?

[leicsmac]

4 hours ago, MattP said:

Evidence for this?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/09/18/theres-overwhelming-evidence-that-the-criminal-justice-system-is-racist-heres-the-proof/?utm_term=.42d55f20571e

 

This covers it in pretty serious detail.

 

Yes, it's an opinion piece, but the links to the studies are all there.

[abdul_fox]

 

[MC Prussian]

On 09/03/2019 at 13:46, leicsmac said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/09/18/theres-overwhelming-evidence-that-the-criminal-justice-system-is-racist-heres-the-proof/?utm_term=.42d55f20571e

 

This covers it in pretty serious detail.

 

Yes, it's an opinion piece, but the links to the studies are all there.

Do police officers arrest or fine people because of their skin color (which would imply racism) or do they do it because the person in charge has behaved in strange ways or/and broken the law - and in the end it turns out more black or latino people are ending up in the net?

 

I find it a bit ridiculous to produce the racist card when in reality, there's highly likely more simple and logical reasons as to why the offense took place in the first place.

It's a bit of a strange approach to statistics. Confirmation bias springs to mind.

 

Edited 11 March 2019 by MC Prussian

[leicsmac]

6 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

Do police officers arrest or fine people because of their skin color (which would imply racism) or do they do it because the person in charge has behaved in strange ways or/and broken the law - and in the end it turns out more black or latino people are ending up in the net?

 

I find it a bit ridiculous to produce the racist card when in reality, there's highly likely more simple and logical reasons as to why the offense took place in the first place.

It's a bit of a strange approach to statistics. Confirmation bias springs to mind.

 

Were this solely about stop, search and arrest rates that might be salient, but seeing as the article also covers trial, sentencing, plea bargaining and other discrepancies in such once the arrest has already been completed, I'm not sure that it is.

 

Can the difference in policy wrt striking jurors in peremptory challenges, prison sentencing lengths and the like as mentioned be explained away similarly?

[Jattdogg]

9 hours ago, abdul_fox said:

 

Lmfao.  

 

I underestimated trump.....maybe he is the greatest president ever. Absolute comedy gold and incompetence should count big league.

[Carl the Llama]

Ngl when I first saw the clip I just thought he was saying "Tim, Apple".  It's not exactly like we need to invent reasons to have a pop at the man.

[MC Prussian]

9 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Were this solely about stop, search and arrest rates that might be salient, but seeing as the article also covers trial, sentencing, plea bargaining and other discrepancies in such once the arrest has already been completed, I'm not sure that it is.

 

Can the difference in policy wrt striking jurors in peremptory challenges, prison sentencing lengths and the like as mentioned be explained away similarly?

I think part of it stems from the fact that Black Americans tend to commit crimes disproportionally more often compared to other ethnicities - homicide rates for instance are astonishingly high, but you could equally say that's not surprising:

https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/08/10/african-american-homicide-rate-nearly-quadruple-national-average-11680

 

The Southside of Chicago, plus Cleveland, Indianapolis, Oakland, Kansas City, Detroit or East St. Louis are notorious hotbeds in that regard.

 

Instead of solely focusing on racism (which undoubtedly exists, but one can argue its extent) or the claims of racism, why does the Left only focus on victim mentality or policing, and why don't they discuss the causes for committing crimes more often? Why is there no healing that stifles the creation of the main, basic problem in the first place?

Their modus operandi is based on luring "victims" under their umbrella, promising protection and justice. To me, and you can call me a cynic, it's merely pandering to one's voting base.

There are tons of reasons for committing crimes, but the main reasons leading to Black Americans or Latinos being largely represented in the statistics surely are poverty and lack of education, plus growing up in an already existing climate of violence and/or an environment where fathers are often absent on a long-term basis (due to incarceration or other reasons). So, let's try and make a change there.

 

There's also this current media narrative that the Republicans are "bad" and the Democrats "good" - which sounds all too simplistic. May I remind you that it was high-profile (Southern) Democrats who had a rocky affair with the KKK before the 1960ies? That the majority of slave owners before the trade was ruled illegal were in fact Democrats?

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Democrats-seem-to-forget-that-the-KKK-was-founded-as-the-militant-arm-of-the-Democratic-party-after-the-Civil-War

 

 

Edited 12 March 2019 by MC Prussian

[Jattdogg]

2 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

Ngl when I first saw the clip I just thought he was saying "Tim, Apple".  It's not exactly like we need to invent reasons to have a pop at the man.

He definitely got it wrong but to be fair i laughed it off. Didnt think it was a big deal but of course people will talk about it. I dont think he needed to address it rather than just laugh it off. We all make mistake like that and its honestly not a yuuuugeeee deal. 

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, MC Prussian said:

I think part of it stems from the fact that Black Americans tend to commit crimes disproportionally more often compared to other ethnicities - homicide rates for instance are astonishingly high, but you could equally say that's not surprising:

https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/08/10/african-american-homicide-rate-nearly-quadruple-national-average-11680

 

The Southside of Chicago, plus Cleveland, Indianapolis, Oakland, Kansas City, Detroit or East St. Louis are notorious hotbeds in that regard.

 

Instead of solely focusing on racism (which undoubtedly exists, but one can argue its extent) or the claims of racism, why does the Left only focus on victim mentality or policing, and why don't they discuss the causes for committing crimes more often? Why is there no healing that stifles the creation of the main, basic problem in the first place?

Their modus operandi is based on luring "victims" under their umbrella, promising protection and justice. To me, and you can call me a cynic, it's merely pandering to one's voting base.

There are tons of reasons for committing crimes, but the main reasons leading to Black Americans or Latinos being largely represented in the statistics surely are poverty and lack of education, plus growing up in an already existing climate of violence and/or an environment where fathers are often absent on a long-term basis (due to incarceration or other reasons). So, let's try and make a change there.

 

There's also this current media narrative that the Republicans are "bad" and the Democrats "good" - which sounds all too simplistic. May I remind you that it was high-profile (Southern) Democrats who had a rocky affair with the KKK before the 1960ies? That the majority of slave owners before the trade was ruled illegal were in fact Democrats?

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Democrats-seem-to-forget-that-the-KKK-was-founded-as-the-militant-arm-of-the-Democratic-party-after-the-Civil-War

 

 

A disproportion in crime numbers based on race still doesn't address the differences in handling of identical cases through the courts once the perp has been arrested based on race, as stated above.

 

I'm definitely with you in that there's a poverty problem in the US (it's rather self-evident) and that has an effect on the landscape, but I'm also curious as to how you think that came about - is it the fault of the black community that such poverty gaps and disproportion exist, and does the establishment have almost none or no part at all to play, in your opinion? (Again, the different ways identical cases are handled based on race might give some pointers here). There has always been institutionalised discrimination of one type or another in various places, after all.

 

As for the last paragraph, I can only speak for myself, but even though the media may make it out to be so this isn't the Premier League - the Dems aren't my Leicester City to be followed through thick and thin and I'm well aware of the Southern Strategy (that was discussed here a while back) that meant the parties by and large switched voter bases in the 1960's and 70's. The media narrative should mean naff all (though I know a lot of people buy into it, which is daft because, as I said - this isn't the Prem and we're not talking football teams here).

 

What matters to me now is that, at the present time:

 

- the party backed by known white supremacists is the Repubs.

- the party that panders to the evangelicals and their Just World hypocrisy, discrimination of LGBT folks and Intelligent Design (if not full-on creationist) rubbish is the Repubs.

- the party that is neither taking action to change energy dependencies seriously nor taking the climate future of the world seriously (a few studies that are nowhere near policy don't count), believing the world can carry on as it is because they have it just right and/or it's our world to wreck, is the Repubs.

 

If and when such folks that believe in the above suddenly decide that the Dem ticket is better for them, I'll become the biggest Repub cheerleader ever.

 

This is not about sides - and yes, the media are doing it a disservice from labelling it as such. For me, anyway, it is, and always will be, limiting the damage those people can do to the future - the future of people they consider an abomination, the future of anyone they consider inherently inferior, hell, even their own future as disregarding the way the world changes will consume them just as readily as it will everyone else (the Earth is most certainly not discriminatory based on race, wealth or any other factor).

[MC Prussian]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

A disproportion in crime numbers based on race still doesn't address the differences in handling of identical cases through the courts once the perp has been arrested based on race, as stated above.

 

I'm definitely with you in that there's a poverty problem in the US (it's rather self-evident) and that has an effect on the landscape, but I'm also curious as to how you think that came about - is it the fault of the black community that such poverty gaps and disproportion exist, and does the establishment have almost none or no part at all to play, in your opinion? (Again, the different ways identical cases are handled based on race might give some pointers here). There has always been institutionalised discrimination of one type or another in various places, after all.

 

As for the last paragraph, I can only speak for myself, but even though the media may make it out to be so this isn't the Premier League - the Dems aren't my Leicester City to be followed through thick and thin and I'm well aware of the Southern Strategy (that was discussed here a while back) that meant the parties by and large switched voter bases in the 1960's and 70's. The media narrative should mean naff all (though I know a lot of people buy into it, which is daft because, as I said - this isn't the Prem and we're not talking football teams here).

 

What matters to me now is that, at the present time:

 

- the party backed by known white supremacists is the Repubs.

- the party that panders to the evangelicals and their Just World hypocrisy, discrimination of LGBT folks and Intelligent Design (if not full-on creationist) rubbish is the Repubs.

- the party that is neither taking action to change energy dependencies seriously nor taking the climate future of the world seriously (a few studies that are nowhere near policy don't count), believing the world can carry on as it is because they have it just right and/or it's our world to wreck, is the Repubs.

 

If and when such folks that believe in the above suddenly decide that the Dem ticket is better for them, I'll become the biggest Repub cheerleader ever.

 

This is not about sides - and yes, the media are doing it a disservice from labelling it as such. For me, anyway, it is, and always will be, limiting the damage those people can do to the future - the future of people they consider an abomination, the future of anyone they consider inherently inferior, hell, even their own future as disregarding the way the world changes will consume them just as readily as it will everyone else (the Earth is most certainly not discriminatory based on race, wealth or any other factor).

Complex. Poverty, crime and bad education in the Black community are in parts self-inflicted. If young men would have better role models at home, I'm sure part of the problem could be avoided very early on. Having said that, unemployment in key areas is mainly down to big industries leaving major US cities in the 70ies, 80ies and 90ies, and the country's and states' failure to invest in education and infrastructure, instead opting to focus on warfare abroad.

Just look at Detroit as a prime example (sorry, @Detroit Blues, I know the city is undergoing rejuvenation in some areas, but this was and still is mightily impressive: http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit).

 

You can also argue as to how much of a relic "Institutionalized discrimination" and "institutionalized racism" are by today's standard. Again, not denying that there isn't discrimination or racism at all, but you can and should debate the actual size, the ramifications and the way the media are emphasizing the matter and for what reason. It's fair to say that the US of today are a better, more equal place than the US some 50, 60 years ago. And the process of getting better continues.

 

As for the white supremacists supporting the Republicans, it's important to stress the fact that "White Supremacists" are a fringe movement. Yes, white supremacists tend to vote for Republicans, but not all Republicans are White Supremacists. Far from it.

You could equally stress that antisemitism is now rife on the Dems' side - Ilhan Omar isn't getting the best reviews as of late. Same goes for Rashida Tlaib:

https://www.sebgorka.com/the-staggering-anti-semitism-of-the-democratic-party/

 

The antisemitism row exposes a rift between "classic" Democrats and the more left-leaning progressives and Democratic Socialists. A conflict which will divide the party massively if the major forces within the party can't control or handle these subversive extremists accordingly.

 

The discrimination of LGBT people is in parts a made-up scandal by the media - and the Democrats. In fact, the Republican Party has shown to be rather welcoming towards these minority groups in recent years: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/11/magazine/gay-conservative-trump-era.html

Again, it's important to stress we're talking minority issues here (4.5% according to a 2018 Gallup poll: https://news.gallup.com/poll/234863/estimate-lgbt-population-rises.aspx).

I'm not a believer in that a minority should dictate how the majority of the population thinks or acts in daily life, but that's just me.

 

As for the Climate Change issue, I've highlighted it before that the Republican Party are indeed taking it seriously:

https://qz.com/1479529/more-republicans-believe-in-climate-change-than-ever-before/

 

Climate Change is a fact, yet there needs to be a distinction as to how much of it is man-made and how much of it just natural occurrence, as we might as well find ourselves in just another interglacial period:

https://weather.com/news/climate/news/ice-age-climate-change-earth-glacial-interglacial-period

 

Edited 12 March 2019 by MC Prussian

[Detroit Blues]

Poor timing @MC Prussian 

 

 

 

 

 

[MC Prussian]

8 minutes ago, Detroit Blues said:

Poor timing @MC Prussian 

 

 

 

 

 

Make no mistake, Trump is dumb in some aspects. Not in all, but some. And whenever that happens, he's seriously dumb.

Turns out Patrick Moore isn't even a Greenpeace co-founder:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-climate-change-skeptic-patrick-moore-a8819416.html

[Detroit Blues]

1 minute ago, MC Prussian said:

Make no mistake, Trump is dumb in some aspects. Not in all, but some. And whenever that happens, he's seriously dumb.

Turns out Patrick Moore isn't even a Greenpeace co-founder:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-climate-change-skeptic-patrick-moore-a8819416.html

US politics in a nutshell:

 

[leicsmac]

9 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

Complex. Poverty, crime and bad education in the Black community are in parts self-inflicted. If young men would have better role models at home, I'm sure part of the problem could be avoided very early on. Having said that, unemployment in key areas is mainly down to big industries leaving major US cities in the 70ies, 80ies and 90ies, and the country's and states' failure to invest in education and infrastructure, instead opting to focus on warfare abroad.

Just look at Detroit as a prime example (sorry, @Detroit Blues, I know the city is undergoing rejuvenation in some areas, but this was and still is mightily impressive: http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit).

 

You can also argue as to how much of a relic "Institutionalized discrimination" and "institutionalized racism" are by today's standard. Again, not denying that there isn't discrimination or racism at all, but you can and should debate the actual size, the ramifications and the way the media are emphasizing the matter and for what reason. It's fair to say that the US of today are a better, more equal place than the US some 50, 60 years ago. And the process of getting better continues.

 

As for the white supremacists supporting the Republicans, it's important to stress the fact that "White Supremacists" are a fringe movement. Yes, white supremacists tend to vote for Republicans, but not all Republicans are White Supremacists. Far from it.

You could equally stress that antisemitism is now rife on the Dems' side - Ilhan Omar isn't getting the best reviews as of late. Same goes for Rashida Tlaib:

https://www.sebgorka.com/the-staggering-anti-semitism-of-the-democratic-party/

 

The antisemitism row exposes a rift between "classic" Democrats and the more left-leaning progressives and Democratic Socialists. A conflict which will divide the party massively if the major forces within the party can't control or handle these subversive extremists accordingly.

 

The discrimination of LGBT people is in parts a made-up scandal by the media - and the Democrats. In fact, the Republican Party has shown to be rather welcoming towards these minority groups in recent years: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/11/magazine/gay-conservative-trump-era.html

Again, it's important to stress we're talking minority issues here (4.5% according to a 2018 Gallup poll: https://news.gallup.com/poll/234863/estimate-lgbt-population-rises.aspx).

I'm not a believer in that a minority should dictate how the majority of the population thinks or acts in daily life, but that's just me.

 

As for the Climate Change issue, I've highlighted it before that the Republican Party are indeed taking it seriously:

https://qz.com/1479529/more-republicans-believe-in-climate-change-than-ever-before/

 

Climate Change is a fact, yet there needs to be a distinction as to how much of it is man-made and how much of it just natural occurrence, as we might as well find ourselves in just another interglacial period:

https://weather.com/news/climate/news/ice-age-climate-change-earth-glacial-interglacial-period

 

Definitely agree that the problem is many-layered, think you're pretty close with that first paragraph. How it gets solved, though...goodness only knows. Education is certainly a start.

 

Also agree that things are improving in terms of discrimination within institutions, however it's always good to be wary of any kind of backslide, and that's what a lot of people are concerned about right now - better to be safe than sorry.

 

We've talked about the white supremacists before, guess we disagree on how much influence they have and we'll leave it at that. I'm sure there are some folks in the Repubs that are at least reasonably LGBT friendly too, but the fact remains that a significant portion of their backing comes from people who consider their very existence an affront to their deity and will not accept them as equals, not now and not ever. Yes, percentage-wise it isn't that many people, but you might say that the mark of a person is the way they treat someone they don't have to treat well - and those folks have been marginalised for too long, minority though they are.

 

As for climate change...well, as I said above, when the Repubs actually present legit policy backed by most of the party to turn things around rather than just a few of them paying vague lip service to the idea and more supporters actually believing the problem exists then I'll think they're actually wanting to do something about safeguarding the future. Until then, the main party line is and will remain maintaining the status quo, backed by oil, gas and coal companies.

 

And (talked about this before too) even if humans have zilch to do with the way the Earth is changing (not very likely), such changes are still happening, going to happen and as such need to be prepared for. Not taking responsibility - rightly or wrongly - for the way the Earth is changing doesn't absolve us from feeling the consequences of those changes - again, the Earth doesn't discriminate based on gender, race....or culpability. Saying that we didn't have anything to do with the way the Earth is now is irrelevant and IMO a cop-out used by those who would rather see nothing done because they're comfortable with the way things are right now, and I'd rather they be honest about it than obfuscating.