President Trump & the USA

[Sharpe's Fox]

Hairswap

 

[leicsmac]

 

Food for thought.

[Nick]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

 

Food for thought.

There's bits of that which are funny. But just bits.

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Swan Lesta said:

There's bits of that which are funny. But just bits.

Personally I'd take it entirely seriously. And implement it.

 

(Possibly in a slightly more humane fashion, though.)

[Guest]

6 hours ago, breadandcheese said:

It's an irrational fear by North Korea, which we shouldn't pander too. America is not looking to go to war with North Korea. The only potential threat to the North Korean regime is economic collapse.

 

The Pacific Fleet is a defensive operation to guarantee the security of the Asian nations in the area who rely on their American ally to provide a defensive umbrella. 

We wouldn't be doing anything full stop. Absolutely nothing to do with us. Two nutters yelling at each other - leave them to it. Much rather be sat with the EU than the US on this one (on most things actually).

[Merging Cultures]

Nuke 'em Nuke 'em Nuke 'em!

Mattis?! You're supposed to be one of the few 'adults in the room' at the White House!

[leicsmac]

So...China has said that if NK attacks anywhere first, they will remain neutral and let the US and SK do their thing. If the US strikes first, however, then they will feel compelled to assist NK.

 

I hope that message is very clearly understood by all parties.

[Guest MattP]

16 hours ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Hairswap

 

Louis Van Gaal and Chris Evans look terrible these days.

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

So...China has said that if NK attacks anywhere first, they will remain neutral and let the US and SK do their thing. If the US strikes first, however, then they will feel compelled to assist NK.

 

I hope that message is very clearly understood by all parties.

Shows us exactly what the Chinese are like.

 

They'll be on the wrong side of history. 

[Collymore]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Shows us exactly what the Chinese are like.

 

They'll be on the wrong side of history. 

What's wrong with what China have said?

 

Sounds fair to me and encourages both sides not to start a war. 

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, Collymore said:

What's wrong with what China have said?

 

Sounds fair to me and encourages both sides not to start a war. 

The fact they would remain neutral were the authoritarian dictatorship to strike first but defend the authoritarian nation if the democratic nation struck first is completely wrong.

 

As I say, they'll be on the wrong side of history. No one wants a war but anyone who backs the Kim dynasty and that regime is as bad as them.

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

The fact they would remain neutral were the authoritarian dictatorship to strike first but defend the authoritarian nation if the democratic nation struck first is completely wrong.

 

As I say, they'll be on the wrong side of history. No one wants a war but anyone who backs the Kim dynasty and that regime is as bad as them.

They feel that a war is unnecessary while ensuring it would be as short as possible should NK be the aggressor and guaranteeing their own interests in the region (as the US have done with the Americas for nearly two centuries) should the US be the aggressor - I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And I think there are those folk on both sides who do indeed want a war - if no one did then things wouldn't have got to this point. Let's be frank - when people talk about deposing the Kim regime they're talking about direct military intervention resulting in the deaths of millions plus regional chaos to do it; that's the only way short-term that it comes about.

 

History is written by the winners, no more no less. What the right and wrong side is afterwards depends entirely on them.

[Collymore]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

The fact they would remain neutral were the authoritarian dictatorship to strike first but defend the authoritarian nation if the democratic nation struck first is completely wrong.

 

As I say, they'll be on the wrong side of history. No one wants a war but anyone who backs the Kim dynasty and that regime is as bad as them.

Why is it completely wrong? It's controlling their annoying little spoilt brother making sure that they don't do anything stupid. Kim Jong might appear mad, but he knows that a war without China would mean his dictatorship would be over in hours and his day to day antics are solely to extend it. All NK's rhetoric is aimed at his own people to brainwash them them into believing they are some sort of world force and control them. It should be taken with a pinch of salt by the West.

 

There's no way America and especially Trump would want to get drawn into a war with China, and vice versa. If the US were to attack first, I doubt China could really do much apart from working out the most cost effective way to appear to be helping out and saving face. 

[James.]

Pretty sensible from China surely?

 

NK now know they won't have Chinese support if they strike first.

 

The US know they could get drawn into a much more serious war with China if they strike first.

 

Basically they are rightly telling both sides to shut the f**k up.

[leicsmac]

Additionally..

 

[Guest MattP]

42 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

They feel that a war is unnecessary while ensuring it would be as short as possible should NK be the aggressor and guaranteeing their own interests in the region (as the US have done with the Americas for nearly two centuries) should the US be the aggressor - I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And I think there are those folk on both sides who do indeed want a war - if no one did then things wouldn't have got to this point. Let's be frank - when people talk about deposing the Kim regime they're talking about direct military intervention resulting in the deaths of millions plus regional chaos to do it; that's the only way short-term that it comes about.

 

History is written by the winners, no more no less. What the right and wrong side is afterwards depends entirely on them.

 

40 minutes ago, Collymore said:

Why is it completely wrong? It's controlling their annoying little spoilt brother making sure that they don't do anything stupid. Kim Jong might appear mad, but he knows that a war without China would mean his dictatorship would be over in hours and his day to day antics are solely to extend it. All NK's rhetoric is aimed at his own people to brainwash them them into believing they are some sort of world force and control them. It should be taken with a pinch of salt by the West.

 

There's no way America and especially Trump would want to get drawn into a war with China, and vice versa. If the US were to attack first, I doubt China could really do much apart from working out the most cost effective way to appear to be helping out and saving face. 

China should be gearing all it's words towards North Korea at the minute to try and stop this madness, they are the that are openly stating they are the ones who will strike first i.e Guam.

 

There are clearly no easy options in escaping this crisis, an all war would obviously raise North Korea to the ground and result in the loss of many many people, any chance of bringing him down from the inside looks remote and just carrying on the way we are now will continue to achieve absolutely nothing why Kim gets himself into a position where if he is threatened he can respond by killing many people before he goes, something that has to be avoided at all cost. The World needs rid of this regime and the Chinese shouldn't be getting in the way of that, it has voted for UN sanctions against North Korea so I'm sure they know the game is up long term.

 

It's rotten really, China has benefitted hugely from globalisation yet continues to duck it's responsibilities to the World, they need to make sure that they are the ones who can persuade Kim (and they can) that this nuclear escalation needs to stop as it will only end one way for him, he is doing this to survive, they have to make sure he knows that he won't survive, not offer military support.

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

China should be gearing all it's words towards North Korea at the minute to try and stop this madness, they are the that are openly stating they are the ones who will strike first i.e Guam.

 

There are clearly no easy options in escaping this crisis, an all war would obviously raise North Korea to the ground and result in the loss of many many people, any chance of bringing him down from the inside looks remote and just carrying on the way we are now will continue to achieve absolutely nothing why Kim gets himself into a position where if he is threatened he can respond by killing many people before he goes, something that has to be avoided at all cost. The World needs rid of this regime and the Chinese shouldn't be getting in the way of that, it has voted for UN sanctions against North Korea so I'm sure they know the game is up long term.

 

It's rotten really, China has benefitted hugely from globalisation yet continues to duck it's responsibilities to the World, they need to make sure that they are the ones who can persuade Kim (and they can) that this nuclear escalation needs to stop as it will only end one way for him, he is doing this to survive, they have to make sure he knows that he won't survive, not offer military support.

1

They've made such threats before. They're hollow, they always have been hollow, and they always will be hollow, purely because they know what follows if they do. The threats of the US, on the other hand, are not - simply because they know they can take down NK in reasonably short order. It would be a bloodbath, but one that they would win.

 

I agree that the Chinese could probably do more to give NK the smackdown and goodness knows they're a pretty repressive lot in their own right, but they're not the ones coming forward with the bellicose war-related rhetoric here. Instead they're pushing for everyone to calm the hell down, which is really what everyone should be doing. Additionally, they're hardly the first major power to prop up a brutal dictatorship in their own region for their own benefit, are they?

 

How exactly can we get rid of this regime from the outside in the short-term without millions of casualties - even with Chinese support?

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

China should be gearing all it's words towards North Korea at the minute to try and stop this madness, they are the that are openly stating they are the ones who will strike first i.e Guam.

 

There are clearly no easy options in escaping this crisis, an all war would obviously raise North Korea to the ground and result in the loss of many many people, any chance of bringing him down from the inside looks remote and just carrying on the way we are now will continue to achieve absolutely nothing why Kim gets himself into a position where if he is threatened he can respond by killing many people before he goes, something that has to be avoided at all cost. The World needs rid of this regime and the Chinese shouldn't be getting in the way of that, it has voted for UN sanctions against North Korea so I'm sure they know the game is up long term.

 

It's rotten really, China has benefitted hugely from globalisation yet continues to duck it's responsibilities to the World, they need to make sure that they are the ones who can persuade Kim (and they can) that this nuclear escalation needs to stop as it will only end one way for him, he is doing this to survive, they have to make sure he knows that he won't survive, not offer military support.

Nk have said they're going to put missiles into the sea 30 miles away from the small island of guam. Not sensible, granted, but also not an attack on guam. It would be a threat in the same way as a gunshot into the air is a threat. They appear to hope that by showing they can hit the us it will make the us back down militarily. Again, not sensible, particularly with a fruit loop in the whitehouse.

China's statement is, as others have said, a slapdown to both sides. Seems the best way for them to handle two unhinged regimes.

 

[Collymore]

9 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

China should be gearing all it's words towards North Korea at the minute to try and stop this madness, they are the that are openly stating they are the ones who will strike first i.e Guam.

 

There are clearly no easy options in escaping this crisis, an all war would obviously raise North Korea to the ground and result in the loss of many many people, any chance of bringing him down from the inside looks remote and just carrying on the way we are now will continue to achieve absolutely nothing why Kim gets himself into a position where if he is threatened he can respond by killing many people before he goes, something that has to be avoided at all cost. The World needs rid of this regime and the Chinese shouldn't be getting in the way of that, it has voted for UN sanctions against North Korea so I'm sure they know the game is up long term.

 

It's rotten really, China has benefitted hugely from globalisation yet continues to duck it's responsibilities to the World, they need to make sure that they are the ones who can persuade Kim (and they can) that this nuclear escalation needs to stop as it will only end one way for him, he is doing this to survive, they have to make sure he knows that he won't survive, not offer military support.

They won't fire a missile at Guam that would be the last thing he's going to do and surely everyone knows that. 

 

If they were actually capable of doing it (which is debatable at the moment ) that would be like pressing a button to end his regime! Not only that, if he was crackers enough to do it, it would likely to be intercepted meaning that he's ended his regime for absolutely nothing.

 

NK are playing the long game and hoping that all this distracts from his goal of having an advanced and reliable nuclear weapon system that can attack anywhere is the world without any doubt. If he was to get this it's like having better insurance on his dictatorship. 

In the mean time he'll continue to make theats against the US to make him look strong and Trump will respond with aggressive words, something that former presidents chose no to do. Soon this will be out of the press when it's obvious it's a war of words... The world's press are loving the fact Trump's going so overboard with it all at the moment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[breadandcheese]

As other commentators have expressed, I'm not sure how unhinged the US's approach is.  They've brought about a big change in China's policy, which is what they wanted.  The fact that China will now only have North Korea's back if they are attacked first, rather than arbitrarily, is a big shift in Chinese foreign policy. 

 

America's policy on military action, since the Korean War, has always been based on a response of self-defence to protect their allies and bases in the region.   As popular as it is to suggest Trump and America are huge warmongers, the fact is they do not want a war with North Korea.  A war would entail the full mobilisation of the american military, costing huge numbers of lives and billions of dollars.  Limited air strikes or cruise missile strikes would not bring down the regime.  Even a huge bombing campaign wouldn't achieve it.  It would need to be done by a very bloody military campaign involving land troops.  Trump, as evidenced by his thoughts on the cost of the Iraq war, does not want this. 

 

So really, American policy has not changed on North Korea, but Chinese policy has.  I'd call that a good situation.  The only issue that needs addressing now is to change China's thoughts on North Korea proliferating their weapons knowledge in a year or two.

 

[James.]

Does anyone know if there have been any serious attempts at covert / special forces operations in North Korea to bring Kim down? Surely that has to be the most attractive option, albeit, I assume, incredibly difficult if not impossible.

[Jattdogg]

Meanwhile donald trump Whitehouse  leaks continue....

 

 

[leicsmac]

20 minutes ago, James. said:

Does anyone know if there have been any serious attempts at covert / special forces operations in North Korea to bring Kim down? Surely that has to be the most attractive option, albeit, I assume, incredibly difficult if not impossible.

Common sense would say that it's been tried in the past, but evidently with no success.

 

In any case, I'm not convinced as to how hard the nations capable of it would try to do something like that because (as has been repeated) the present situation suits all big actors down to the ground.

[Vacamion]

 

 

That torchlight parade of unhooded white supremacists on a college campus chanting racist slogans and doing the Nazi salute...

 

What on earth is happening to the USA?

 

It's difficult to be optimistic about the future when you see stuff like that.

 

 

 

[Merging Cultures]

Does anyone know if there have been any serious attempts at covert / special forces operations in the US to bring Trump down? Surely that has to be the most attractive option, albeit, I assume, incredibly difficult if not impossible.