4everfox Posted 2 March 2017 Posted 2 March 2017 I've been off work recently recovering from a slipped disc which has obviously been very boring and lonely so today I decided I would pass a bit of time trying to answer the mother of all questions: who is the biggest football club in England and where do Leicester rank? I thought I'd share the results. Driven by boredom and curiosity I came up with a formula and began to do my research. My formula is as follows: - Eligible clubs must have played at least one season in the English top flight and the club must still exist. - One point to be awarded for every season played in the top flight - One point deducted for every season spent out of the top flight - Ten points for every top flight title - Three points for every English second tier title - One point for a Division Three/League One or Division Four/League Two title - Ten points for every European Cup/Champions League title - Five points for every FA Cup or UEFA Cup/Europa League title - Three points for every League Cup win - One point for every Community Shield, Super Cup or Football League Trophy win - Anything won in more recent and relevant history is awarded double points, in this case anything won in the last twenty five years or since 1992 - 1% of a clubs highest average attendance recorded over the course of a season is awarded in points - One point is awarded for every season where the club has qualified for the European Cup/Champions League Here is the sixty team list I compiled based on who was eligible if you are interested, the results are quite surprising: Pos_________________________Points 1 - Manchester United_______1380 2 - Arsenal__________________983 3 - Liverpool_________________947 4 - Chelsea__________________790 5 - Everton__________________762 6 - Tottenham Hotspur______699 7 - Aston Villa_______________698 8 - Newcastle United________696 9 - Manchester City_________666 10 - Sunderland_____________619 11 - Wolves_________________531 12 - Sheffield Wednesday___488 13 - West Brom_____________472 14 - Leeds United___________454 15 - Blackburn Rovers_______412 16 - Bolton Wanderers______ 410 17 - Derby County___________401 18 - Birmingham City________392 19 - Nottingham Forest______380 20 - West Ham United________378 21 - Sheffield United_________376 22 - Middlesbrough__________372 23 - Charlton Athletic_________365 24 - Portsmouth_____________362 25 - Burnley__________________355 26 - LEICESTER CITY_________350 27 - Preston North End_______338 28 - Stoke City_______________318 29 - Cardiff City______________318 30 - Notts County____________310 31 - Huddersfield Town______309 32 - Coventry City____________296 33 - Hull City_________________281 34 - Southampton____________275 35 - Fulham__________________273 36 - Norwich City_____________251 37 - Crystal Palace___________243 38 - Ipswich Town____________232 39 - Blackpool________________210 40 - Brighton & Hove Albion___183 41 - Bristol City_______________180 42 - Queens Park Rangers____179 43 - Swansea City____________161 44 - Millwall__________________161 45 - Brentford________________158 46 - Wigan Athletic___________154 47 - Bradford City____________154 48 - Reading_________________142 49 - Luton Town_____________136 50 - Bury____________________136 51 - Barnsley________________102 52 - Watford_________________98 53 - Oldham Athletic_________94 54 - Swindon Town__________91 55 - Northampton Town______82 56 - Bournemouth____________72 57 - Grimsby Town___________62 58 - Leyton Orient____________59 59 - Carlisle United___________53 60 - Oxford United____________16 (teams tied on points were decided by whoever had been more successful since 1992) The big surprises for me were Arsenal being above Liverpool, largely thanks to there highest average attendance of around 60,000. Take this away from everyone and they slip to third. Also Sunderland, West Brom, Bolton surprised and particularly Charlton Athletic who's highest average attendance was again the main reason, in a table where this highest average attendance statistic isn't included they slip from 23rd to 31st. Burnley and Portsmouth too, what's that about? Why are they above Leicester? The answer is the attendance stat again. Take this away from the equation and we go in front of them both to 19th from 26th. Put the attendance stat back in and give us an average attendance of 40,000 over the course of a season and we would leap past Forest and Derby to 15th on 436 points. Alternative table which leaves out the highest average attendance statistic and bases the table on success alone is available on request.
davieG Posted 2 March 2017 Posted 2 March 2017 I'm not convinced about lower league titles contributing to a club's bigness and attendance should surely be based on the % of ground capacity.
AmarteyAndChill Posted 2 March 2017 Posted 2 March 2017 We've won more trophys than Everton and Liverpool in the last 20 years
Corky Posted 2 March 2017 Posted 2 March 2017 It's all subjective, league football has been going too long to have a definitive list and it doesn't really matter anyway. Far too much time is given to an unanswerable debate.
4everfox Posted 2 March 2017 Author Posted 2 March 2017 1 minute ago, buzzer_b said: Burnley are a bigger club than us!? Bullshit! Its just for fun. Surprisingly Burnley have spent more years in the top flight then Leicester have.
lcfcbaby Posted 2 March 2017 Posted 2 March 2017 11 minutes ago, 4everfox said: I've been off work recently recovering from a slipped disc which has obviously been very boring and lonely so today I decided I would pass a bit of time trying to answer the mother of all questions: who is the biggest football club in England and where do Leicester rank? I thought I'd share the results. Driven by boredom and curiosity I came up with a formula and began to do my research. My formula is as follows: - Eligible clubs must have played at least one season in the English top flight and the club must still exist. - One point to be awarded for every season played in the top flight - One point deducted for every season spent out of the top flight - Ten points for every top flight title - Three points for every English second tier title - One point for a Division Three/League One or Division Four/League Two title - Ten points for every European Cup/Champions League title - Five points for every FA Cup or UEFA Cup/Europa League title - Three points for every League Cup win - One point for every Community Shield, Super Cup or Football League Trophy win - Anything won in more recent and relevant history is awarded double points, in this case anything won in the last twenty five years or since 1992 - 1% of a clubs highest average attendance recorded over the course of a season is awarded in points - One point is awarded for every season where the club has qualified for the European Cup/Champions League Here is the sixty team list I compiled based on who was eligible if you are interested, the results are quite surprising: Pos_________________________Points 1 - Manchester United_______1380 2 - Arsenal__________________983 3 - Liverpool_________________947 4 - Chelsea__________________790 5 - Everton__________________762 6 - Tottenham Hotspur______699 7 - Aston Villa_______________698 8 - Newcastle United________696 9 - Manchester City_________666 10 - Sunderland_____________619 11 - Wolves_________________531 12 - Sheffield Wednesday___488 13 - West Brom_____________472 14 - Leeds United___________454 15 - Blackburn Rovers_______412 16 - Bolton Wanderers______ 410 17 - Derby County___________401 18 - Birmingham City________392 19 - Nottingham Forest______380 20 - West Ham United________378 21 - Sheffield United_________376 22 - Middlesbrough__________372 23 - Charlton Athletic_________365 24 - Portsmouth_____________362 25 - Burnley__________________355 26 - LEICESTER CITY_________350 27 - Preston North End_______338 28 - Stoke City_______________318 29 - Cardiff City______________318 30 - Notts County____________310 31 - Huddersfield Town______309 32 - Coventry City____________296 33 - Hull City_________________281 34 - Southampton____________275 35 - Fulham__________________273 36 - Norwich City_____________251 37 - Crystal Palace___________243 38 - Ipswich Town____________232 39 - Blackpool________________210 40 - Brighton & Hove Albion___183 41 - Bristol City_______________180 42 - Queens Park Rangers____179 43 - Swansea City____________161 44 - Millwall__________________161 45 - Brentford________________158 46 - Wigan Athletic___________154 47 - Bradford City____________154 48 - Reading_________________142 49 - Luton Town_____________136 50 - Bury____________________136 51 - Barnsley________________102 52 - Watford_________________98 53 - Oldham Athletic_________94 54 - Swindon Town__________91 55 - Northampton Town______82 56 - Bournemouth____________72 57 - Grimsby Town___________62 58 - Leyton Orient____________59 59 - Carlisle United___________53 60 - Oxford United____________16 (teams tied on points were decided by whoever had been more successful since 1992) The big surprises for me were Arsenal being above Liverpool, largely thanks to there highest average attendance of around 60,000. Take this away from everyone and they slip to third. Also Sunderland, West Brom, Bolton surprised and particularly Charlton Athletic who's highest average attendance was again the main reason, in a table where this highest average attendance statistic isn't included they slip from 23rd to 31st. Burnley and Portsmouth too, what's that about? Why are they above Leicester? The answer is the attendance stat again. Take this away from the equation and we go in front of them both to 19th from 26th. Put the attendance stat back in and give us an average attendance of 40,000 over the course of a season and we would leap past Forest and Derby to 15th on 436 points. Alternative table which leaves out the highest average attendance statistic and bases the table on success alone is available on request. Although that might be a slipperly slope points wise. I find this fascinating. Provides a good basis for more research. Would like to see it expanded beyond 'winners'. It means the clubs who have been consistent but haven't won anything haven't got so many points. So runners up for example in cups and league get 0 even though it's an achievement in itself. Would consistency count for anything? It's not something we'd immediately think of when we say big club but clubs who have never been outside the Premier League surely get bonus points? Although that might be a slippery slope for points being handed out. Also attendances are a tricky one. Capacities will obviously have an impact on that.
4everfox Posted 2 March 2017 Author Posted 2 March 2017 5 minutes ago, davieG said: I'm not convinced about lower league titles contributing to a club's bigness and attendance should surely be based on the % of ground capacity. That's something I might look into actually.
4everfox Posted 2 March 2017 Author Posted 2 March 2017 Just now, lcfcbaby said: I find this fascinating. Provides a good basis for more research. Would like to see it expanded beyond 'winners'. It means the clubs who have been consistent but haven't won anything haven't got so many points. So runners up for example in cups and league get 0 even though it's an achievement in itself. Would consistency count for anything? It's not something we'd immediately think of when we say big club but clubs who have never been outside the Premier League surely get bonus points? Although that might be a slippery slope for points being handed out. Also attendances are a tricky one. Capacities will obviously have an impact on that. This is just a rough draft that could be expanded on and tweaked.
Kitchandro Posted 2 March 2017 Posted 2 March 2017 Honestly, it's time for people to have a bit of pride in our club - that's the whole point in supporting one. Saying we're smaller than the likes of Burnley, Charlton and Blackburn is pitiful. That's not the attitude that builds a passionate or fierce atmosphere around the place. All the clubs that are famed for their atmosphere - do you think it's because they tell themselves they're a small club? No, they're arrogant and think they're the dog's bollocks. This is the mentality this club needs to adopt, the apathy of being 'little Leicester that got lucky' is one of the main reasons we've done so shit this season - rather than having self-belief and demanding high performance from ourselves.
Stadt Posted 2 March 2017 Posted 2 March 2017 European cups worth the same as a league title points fro the community shield/ football league trophy Charlton and Portsmouth 'bigger' than us
Cadno'r Cymoedd Posted 2 March 2017 Posted 2 March 2017 I like this. Some interesting stuff. Many younger people will forget that clubs such as Charlton, Burnley, Huddersfield, to name just a few, were big clubs in the mid-20th century. Wolves were England's top side early 50s arguably and were hammered 'style wise' by Honved of Hungary in a game they still won that made English fans realise that "Johnny Foreigner" could play football. The Valley had the biggest club ground capacity at around 75000 with huge terraces and they filled them. Liverpool were comparatively small fry till early 60s. Everton was the top Merseyside club. Good stuff.
Spudulike Posted 2 March 2017 Posted 2 March 2017 'Biggest' = 'Richest'. LCFC are currently 20th richest club in world football. Nothing else matters, does it
Fox92 Posted 3 March 2017 Posted 3 March 2017 I hate this kind of thing. Being a "big club" is how YOU interpenetrate it. For me, Liverpool and United are miles above the rest. There's plenty of big clubs in the football league but they haven't played top flight football since early 2000s.
Leicester_Numan Posted 3 March 2017 Posted 3 March 2017 9 hours ago, 4everfox said: I've been off work recently recovering from a slipped disc which has obviously been very boring and lonely so today I decided I would pass a bit of time trying to answer the mother of all questions: who is the biggest football club in England and where do Leicester rank? I thought I'd share the results. Driven by boredom and curiosity I came up with a formula and began to do my research. My formula is as follows: - Eligible clubs must have played at least one season in the English top flight and the club must still exist. - One point to be awarded for every season played in the top flight - One point deducted for every season spent out of the top flight - Ten points for every top flight title - Three points for every English second tier title - One point for a Division Three/League One or Division Four/League Two title - Ten points for every European Cup/Champions League title - Five points for every FA Cup or UEFA Cup/Europa League title - Three points for every League Cup win - One point for every Community Shield, Super Cup or Football League Trophy win - Anything won in more recent and relevant history is awarded double points, in this case anything won in the last twenty five years or since 1992 - 1% of a clubs highest average attendance recorded over the course of a season is awarded in points - One point is awarded for every season where the club has qualified for the European Cup/Champions League Here is the sixty team list I compiled based on who was eligible if you are interested, the results are quite surprising: Pos_________________________Points 1 - Manchester United_______1380 2 - Arsenal__________________983 3 - Liverpool_________________947 4 - Chelsea__________________790 5 - Everton__________________762 6 - Tottenham Hotspur______699 7 - Aston Villa_______________698 8 - Newcastle United________696 9 - Manchester City_________666 10 - Sunderland_____________619 11 - Wolves_________________531 12 - Sheffield Wednesday___488 13 - West Brom_____________472 14 - Leeds United___________454 15 - Blackburn Rovers_______412 16 - Bolton Wanderers______ 410 17 - Derby County___________401 18 - Birmingham City________392 19 - Nottingham Forest______380 20 - West Ham United________378 21 - Sheffield United_________376 22 - Middlesbrough__________372 23 - Charlton Athletic_________365 24 - Portsmouth_____________362 25 - Burnley__________________355 26 - LEICESTER CITY_________350 27 - Preston North End_______338 28 - Stoke City_______________318 29 - Cardiff City______________318 30 - Notts County____________310 31 - Huddersfield Town______309 32 - Coventry City____________296 33 - Hull City_________________281 34 - Southampton____________275 35 - Fulham__________________273 36 - Norwich City_____________251 37 - Crystal Palace___________243 38 - Ipswich Town____________232 39 - Blackpool________________210 40 - Brighton & Hove Albion___183 41 - Bristol City_______________180 42 - Queens Park Rangers____179 43 - Swansea City____________161 44 - Millwall__________________161 45 - Brentford________________158 46 - Wigan Athletic___________154 47 - Bradford City____________154 48 - Reading_________________142 49 - Luton Town_____________136 50 - Bury____________________136 51 - Barnsley________________102 52 - Watford_________________98 53 - Oldham Athletic_________94 54 - Swindon Town__________91 55 - Northampton Town______82 56 - Bournemouth____________72 57 - Grimsby Town___________62 58 - Leyton Orient____________59 59 - Carlisle United___________53 60 - Oxford United____________16 (teams tied on points were decided by whoever had been more successful since 1992) The big surprises for me were Arsenal being above Liverpool, largely thanks to there highest average attendance of around 60,000. Take this away from everyone and they slip to third. Also Sunderland, West Brom, Bolton surprised and particularly Charlton Athletic who's highest average attendance was again the main reason, in a table where this highest average attendance statistic isn't included they slip from 23rd to 31st. Burnley and Portsmouth too, what's that about? Why are they above Leicester? The answer is the attendance stat again. Take this away from the equation and we go in front of them both to 19th from 26th. Put the attendance stat back in and give us an average attendance of 40,000 over the course of a season and we would leap past Forest and Derby to 15th on 436 points. Alternative table which leaves out the highest average attendance statistic and bases the table on success alone is available on request. You're deducting a point for every season outside the top flight but awarding points for winning other divisions? That makes no sense whatsoever. You're giving teams a double punishment by not having the extra point for being in the top flight then deducting an extra point and then rewarding teams for winning something you're double punishing them for. You see the problem? How about 0 points for every season out of it and recalculate?
Terraloon Posted 3 March 2017 Posted 3 March 2017 Nothing for winning the Cup winners cup? As an aside in the the early days of football the FL was in effect a Northern completion with southern teams in the Southern League. Did you calculate from when clubs first joined the FL structure or when the clubs were formed? For instance Spurs were founded in 1882, won't the FA cup in 1905 but didn't join the FL till 1908
4everfox Posted 3 March 2017 Author Posted 3 March 2017 1 minute ago, Terraloon said: Nothing for winning the Cup winners cup? As an aside in the the early days of football the FL was in effect a Northern completion with southern teams in the Southern League. Did you calculate from when clubs first joined the FL structure or when the clubs were formed? For instance Spurs were founded in 1882, won't the FA cup in 1905 but didn't join the FL till 1908 Yes I took into account when a club was founded and so on so its quite accurate and five points were awarded for every Cup Winners Cup/UEFA Cup/Europa League I just forgot to mention that competition.
4everfox Posted 3 March 2017 Author Posted 3 March 2017 15 minutes ago, Leicester_Numan said: You're deducting a point for every season outside the top flight but awarding points for winning other divisions? That makes no sense whatsoever. You're giving teams a double punishment by not having the extra point for being in the top flight then deducting an extra point and then rewarding teams for winning something you're double punishing them for. You see the problem? How about 0 points for every season out of it and recalculate? Good point, I'm going to recalculate based on this and update the table later.
Ted Maul Posted 3 March 2017 Posted 3 March 2017 Charlton bigger than us Interesting system of working it out, but it has some major flaws- in what possible world are Hull bigger than Southampton?
jayfox26 Posted 3 March 2017 Posted 3 March 2017 1 hour ago, Fox92 said: I hate this kind of thing. Being a "big club" is how YOU interpenetrate it. For me, Liverpool and United are miles above the rest. There's plenty of big clubs in the football league but they haven't played top flight football since early 2000s. You can keep your interpenetrating to yourself. This is a clean forum. I'm sure there are other forums on the Web for that kind of thing!
stripeyfox Posted 3 March 2017 Posted 3 March 2017 It's always a bit subjective but I view it like this: If you were tasked with hand picking 20 teams for the Premier League which would maximize revenue for the League, who would you go for? The first few are a shoe in: I'd go with these 11 clubs who all fit the criteria of being a "big club" (despite a lack of success in some cases!) Manchester United Manchester City Liverpool Everton Arsenal Tottenham Chelsea Newcastle United Everton Aston Villa Leeds United Then: West Ham Nottingham Forest Leicester City (Prem win secures their place) Sheffield Wednesday Sunderland Possibly then 4 from: Blackburn Birmingham City Wolves Portsmouth West Brom Southampton
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