Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Countryfox]

3 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

@lifted*fox is the worst he needs to learn to articulate his own politics before attacking others imo

 

Nowt to do with Lifted Sharpey it’s that other ****** Dough nut that jumps into someone else’s conversation and slags them off and hurls abuse for  having an opinion that differs from his ...    

[Sharpe's Fox]

4 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

 

Nowt to do with Lifted Sharpey it’s that other ****** Dough nut that jumps into someone else’s conversation and slags them off and hurls abuse for  having an opinion that differs from his ...    

very true mate @Donut has also made a point of attacking me in the LCFC forum for having an opinion also. Hopefully we all realise that opinions are held in good faith and argued the same.

 

Except of course scummy centrism which convinces itself is an amalgamation of left and right and therefore is apolitical. This is of course nonsense “centrists” have as much belief in outsourcing, low pay, privatisation and reduction in working rights as anyone on the right they just don’t want to argue their warped case.

[Countryfox]

4 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

 

Except of course scummy centrism which convinces itself is an amalgamation of left and right and therefore is apolitical. This is of course nonsense “centrists” have as much belief in outsourcing, low pay, privatisation and reduction in working rights as anyone on the right they just don’t want to argue their warped case.

 

Scum !!! ....    

[Alf Bentley]

Just read that if Tory MPs have a vote of confidence in May and she survives (the likely outcome), then not only is there no leadership contest but they have to wait 12 months to have another confidence vote.

 

I assume that makes it likely that they'll wait until October to see what comes out of negotiations, before trying to get rid of her (assuming she does a compromise deal).

[Izzy]

2 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

Just read that if Tory MPs have a vote of confidence in May and she survives (the likely outcome), then not only is there no leadership contest but they have to wait 12 months to have another confidence vote.

 

I assume that makes it likely that they'll wait until October to see what comes out of negotiations, before trying to get rid of her (assuming she does a compromise deal).

You’ve got to hand it to her really.

 

The relentless abuse she receives from all quarters yet she still comes out fighting. 

 

I admire her resilience in the face of consistent adversity. 

 

Probably one of the most unpopular PMs I can remember but she’s got bouncebackability in abundance.

 

Part of me still wants her to succeed just so she can enjoy sticking two fingers up to everyone.

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

You’ve got to hand it to her really.

 

The relentless abuse she receives from all quarters yet she still comes out fighting. 

 

I admire her resilience in the face of consistent adversity. 

 

Probably one of the most unpopular PMs I can remember but she’s got bouncebackability in abundance.

 

Part of me still wants her to succeed just so she can enjoy sticking two fingers up to everyone.

 

I certainly think Cameron will go down in history as a much worse PM.

 

Gambling on promising a referendum for party management reasons in the expectation of not winning a majority and being rescued from his promise by the Lib Dems was criminally reckless.

To do that on the back of years of discontent caused by austerity - and years of uncontested and sometimes unjustified criticism of the EU - was doubly so.

To then try to win the referendum with a cynical fear campaign makes it even worse. I genuinely think that history books in 50 years time will depict him as Britain's worst ever PM.

 

May was handed a poisoned chalice. There's a strong argument that she should have agreed a Chequers-style govt stance at a much earlier stage - maybe even before triggering Article 50.

But I can understand why she didn't do that, as it would have caused civil war in her party (as it's doing now) and might have brought down her govt.

 

As a mild Remainer, it may even be that she planned to drag things out and to then bounce the Hard Brexit crew into a negotiated Soft Brexit deal at a late stage - as she's doing now.

She might even succeed in doing that, though I tend to think there'll be a big political crisis in the autumn after the EU demands more concessions, assuming she gets through to summer recess. 

 

The Windrush / "hostile environment" saga is arguably a bigger a stain on her record than anything to do with Brexit. Not a great PM but a bit more to respect than with Cameron, I think.

[Alf Bentley]

Events in N. Ireland are a bit of a cause for concern....

- Loyalist riots in Belfast

- Dissident Republican riots in Derry

- Explosives thrown at the homes of Gerry Adams & an ex-IRA prisoner

 

I'm sure some will say "what goes around, comes around" about that last bit of news, but we could really do without a spiral of violence over there.

 

Whatever comes out of Brexit, too, let's hope that there's nothing to disrupt the peace in N. Ireland.

[Guest MattP]

16 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

Events in N. Ireland are a bit of a cause for concern....

- Loyalist riots in Belfast

- Dissident Republican riots in Derry

- Explosives thrown at the homes of Gerry Adams & an ex-IRA prisoner

 

I'm sure some will say "what goes around, comes around" about that last bit of news, but we could really do without a spiral of violence over there.

 

Whatever comes out of Brexit, too, let's hope that there's nothing to disrupt the peace in N. Ireland.

Only a matter of time I think anyway unfortunately. 

 

Many things could set it off, Brexit, election of Corbyn led government, SF pushing for a unification referendum. An actual referendum.

 

As good as the GFA was it does look.like a plaster, let's hope the youngsters manage to take control before it does go off again.

[Alf Bentley]

51 minutes ago, MattP said:

Only a matter of time I think anyway unfortunately. 

 

Many things could set it off, Brexit, election of Corbyn led government, SF pushing for a unification referendum. An actual referendum.

 

As good as the GFA was it does look.like a plaster, let's hope the youngsters manage to take control before it does go off again.

 

I hope you're wrong with that first comment. No idea whether you are or not.

 

Sectarianism hasn't gone away and communities are still very divided from what I understand (still mostly separate Prot/Cath schools, I think).

Though I get the impression that younger generations mix a bit more - maybe what you were hinting at with your last comment.

 

There's been comparatively little trouble over the past 20 years, though. You'd like to think that the longer peace lasts, the harder it would be for anyone to get wide support for violence.

 

Reunification could presumably only happen with the agreement of the Irish Republic - and I imagine that they'd only want it to proceed if it had a good chance of succeeding, whatever SF thought.

On the other hand, there is now a protestant minority (not dyed-in-the-wool loyalists, obviously) who would apparently prefer reunification if Brexit damages the cross-border economy....let's hope that doesn't happen.

[lifted*fox]

 

 

250,000 people of all ages and ethnicity including families with children marched on London yesterday to protest against Trump and our inept government who have welcomed him here. 

 

today, about 10 gammons have turned out; mostly fat, balding middle-aged men, for a pro-trump / free Tommy Robinson walk.

 

speaks volumes, no matter which way you try to look at it. pathetic. 

 

[Izzy]

9 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

 

 

250,000 people of all ages and ethnicity including families with children marched on London yesterday to protest against Trump and our inept government who have welcomed him here. 

 

today, about 10 gammons have turned out; mostly fat, balding middle-aged men, for a pro-trump / free Tommy Robinson walk.

 

speaks volumes, no matter which way you try to look at it. pathetic. 

 

I don’t understand why anybody marches in protest about anything.

 

I appreciate people have their reasons but does it ever actually change anything?

 

In all my years I can’t recall protesting once - and I don’t think I ever will.

 

Got better, more productive things to do with my life tbh

[murphy]

4 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Pretty accurate, to be fair.

 

Seems to contradict everything you said last night.  It was only the uneducated that voted tory that were stupid, racist etc. wasn't it?

 

[davieG]

7 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I don’t understand why anybody marches in protest about anything.

 

I appreciate people have their reasons but does it ever actually change anything?

 

In all my years I can’t recall protesting once - and I don’t think I ever will.

 

Got better, more productive things to do with my life tbh

Seemed to work against Thatcher and the Poll Tax.

[Izzy]

Just now, davieG said:

Seemed to work against Thatcher and the Poll Tax.

So maybe protesting made an impact once, over 25 years ago?

 

Anyway we still have the Poll Tax don’t we? Just called Council Tax instead isn’t it?

[davieG]

6 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

So maybe protesting made an impact once, over 25 years ago?

 

Anyway we still have the Poll Tax don’t we? Just called Council Tax instead isn’t it?

No the poll tax was based on taxing individuals rather than property so if you got more than 1 adult occupying a house they all paid their share. Seemed a lot fairer to me considering it's people not houses that use the services that the tax pays for.

[Izzy]

3 minutes ago, davieG said:

No the poll tax was based on taxing individuals rather than property so if you got more than 1 adult occupying a house they all paid their share. Seemed a lot fairer to me considering it's people not houses that use the services that the tax pays for.

If it was fairer then I wonder why so many people protest against it?

 

My memory is fading so I can’t remember why people kicked up such a stink about it 

[davieG]

1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

If it was fairer then I wonder why so many people protest against it?

 

My memory is fading so I can’t remember why people kicked up such a stink about it 

I guess a fear the multi occupied house holds could end up paying more. I think it was also an anti Tory/Thatcher Labour led 'rebellion' as by then many had had enough of Thatcher and there was a strong sense of mistrust towards her and her Tory compatriots.

 

Plus the home owners of expensive house probably make up a hogh proportion of the silent majority.

 

All guess work of course.

 

[Facecloth]

3 hours ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

You’ve got to hand it to her really.

 

The relentless abuse she receives from all quarters yet she still comes out fighting. 

 

I admire her resilience in the face of consistent adversity. 

 

Probably one of the most unpopular PMs I can remember but she’s got bouncebackability in abundance.

 

Part of me still wants her to succeed just so she can enjoy sticking two fingers up to everyone.

I find the way you talk about May odd, and potentially a little patronising to her. 

 

All prime ministers face constant criticism, she's nothing special. In fact all politicians face constant criticism. Cameron was ripped to shreds on a daily basis. Milliband got so much abuse it was beyond a joke, and so does Corbyn. I don't see you praising them, or to keep it current, Corbyn, for shrugging it off and getting on with it. Her treatment is no different to any other politician in a high profile role. They all get torn apart because generally they're doing a shit job. I feel there's a little bit of subconscious protection of her because she's a woman, and she a Tory.

 

Diane Abbot gets abused left right and centre in here, you might have even done it yourself, wheres your compassion for her. Let's be honest, they bring it on themselves by being incompetent, but seems a bit unfair you want people to lay off poor little Theresa, but Abbots fair game, as is Cameron, Milliband, Corbyn etc.

[Izzy]

1 minute ago, davieG said:

 I think it was also an anti Tory/Thatcher Labour led 'rebellion' as by then many had had enough of Thatcher and there was a strong sense of mistrust towards her and her Tory compatriots.

 

Yeah, I tend to recall the poll tax riots were really more an excuse to vent anger against Thatcher and the Tories

[Countryfox]

13 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

I find the way you talk about May odd, and potentially a little patronising to her. 

 

All prime ministers face constant criticism, she's nothing special. In fact all politicians face constant criticism. Cameron was ripped to shreds on a daily basis. Milliband got so much abuse it was beyond a joke, and so does Corbyn. I don't see you praising them, or to keep it current, Corbyn, for shrugging it off and getting on with it. Her treatment is no different to any other politician in a high profile role. They all get torn apart because generally they're doing a shit job. I feel there's a little bit of subconscious protection of her because she's a woman, and she a Tory.

 

Diane Abbot gets abused left right and centre in here, you might have even done it yourself, wheres your compassion for her. Let's be honest, they bring it on themselves by being incompetent, but seems a bit unfair you want people to lay off poor little Theresa, but Abbots fair game, as is Cameron, Milliband, Corbyn etc.

 Tbf flannel,  May gets abuse all the time whatever she does,  Abbot gets it when she talks absolute twaddle ....

[Izzy]

4 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

I find the way you talk about May odd, and potentially a little patronising to her. 

 

All prime ministers face constant criticism, she's nothing special. In fact all politicians face constant criticism. Cameron was ripped to shreds on a daily basis. Milliband got so much abuse it was beyond a joke, and so does Corbyn. I don't see you praising them, or to keep it current, Corbyn, for shrugging it off and getting on with it. Her treatment is no different to any other politician in a high profile role. They all get torn apart because generally they're doing a shit job. I feel there's a little bit of subconscious protection of her because she's a woman, and she a Tory.

 

Diane Abbot gets abused left right and centre in here, you might have even done it yourself, wheres your compassion for her. Let's be honest, they bring it on themselves by being incompetent, but seems a bit unfair you want people to lay off poor little Theresa, but Abbots fair game, as is Cameron, Milliband, Corbyn etc.

I think this is the third or possibly fourth time you’ve picked me up on this now. Not sure why it bothers you so much.

 

No fvcker else defends May on here - not even the ‘proper’ Tories so maybe I just feel a bit sorry for her. I’ve always maintained that despite her faults, I genuinely believe she’s trying to do the best she can in almost impossible circumstances.

 

And don’t pretend Abbott gets anywhere near the same abuse on here as May does - not even close. Abbott got stick because she can’t add up where May gets abuse about how she looks and behaves - it’s completely different.

 

I’m not suggesting people lay off May for one minute for her politics, policy and decision making. What I do have a problem with is people abusing her as a human being with their vile comments about her.

 

I may well be guilty of poking fun at Corbyn or Abbott in the past but I don’t think I’ve ever resorted to calling them evil, witches, cvnts, bitches, slags, vermin or any other vile name.

 

So yes I do think her treatment is different to other politicians and that’s probably why I go out my way to try and even things up a bit.

[Countryfox]

4 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I think this is the third or possibly fourth time you’ve picked me up on this now. Not sure why it bothers you so much.

 

No fvcker else defends May on here - not even the ‘proper’ Tories so maybe I just feel a bit sorry for her. I’ve always maintained that despite her faults, I genuinely believe she’s trying to do the best she can in almost impossible circumstances.

 

And don’t pretend Abbott gets anywhere near the same abuse on here as May does - not even close. Abbott got stick because she can’t add up where May gets abuse about how she looks and behaves - it’s completely different.

 

I’m not suggesting people lay off May for one minute for her politics, policy and decision making. What I do have a problem with is people abusing her as a human being with their vile comments about her.

 

I may well be guilty of poking fun at Corbyn or Abbott in the past but I don’t think I’ve ever resorted to calling them evil, witches, cvnts, bitches, slags, vermin or any other vile name.

 

So yes I do think her treatment is different to other politicians and that’s probably why I go out my way to try and even things up a bit.

 

Well said Muzzett ...    I’d love to see just one person on here try and do her job ...   nope, they’d sh1t their pants ...

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I think this is the third or possibly fourth time you’ve picked me up on this now. Not sure why it bothers you so much.

 

No fvcker else defends May on here - not even the ‘proper’ Tories so maybe I just feel a bit sorry for her. I’ve always maintained that despite her faults, I genuinely believe she’s trying to do the best she can in almost impossible circumstances.

 

And don’t pretend Abbott gets anywhere near the same abuse on here as May does - not even close. Abbott got stick because she can’t add up where May gets abuse about how she looks and behaves - it’s completely different.

 

I’m not suggesting people lay off May for one minute for her politics, policy and decision making. What I do have a problem with is people abusing her as a human being with their vile comments about her.

 

I may well be guilty of poking fun at Corbyn or Abbott in the past but I don’t think I’ve ever resorted to calling them evil, witches, cvnts, bitches, slags, vermin or any other vile name.

 

So yes I do think her treatment is different to other politicians and that’s probably why I go out my way to try and even things up a bit.

I’ll try to take the piss more out of how Abbott looks in future @Izzy Muzzett, for balance.

[Facecloth]

Just now, Izzy Muzzett said:

I think this is the third or possibly fourth time you’ve picked me up on this now. Not sure why it bothers you so much.

 

No fvcker else defends May on here - not even the ‘proper’ Tories so maybe I just feel a bit sorry for her. I’ve always maintained that despite her faults, I genuinely believe she’s trying to do the best she can in almost impossible circumstances.

 

And don’t pretend Abbott gets anywhere near the same abuse on here as May does - not even close. Abbott got stick because she can’t add up where May gets abuse about how she looks and behaves - it’s completely different.

 

I’m not suggesting people lay off May for one minute for her politics, policy and decision making. What I do have a problem with is people abusing her as a human being with their vile comments about her.

 

I may well be guilty of poking fun at Corbyn or Abbott in the past but I don’t think I’ve ever resorted to calling them evil, witches, cvnts, bitches, slags, vermin or any other vile name.

 

So yes I do think her treatment is different to other politicians and that’s probably why I go out my way to try and even things up a bit.

I don't think it is. Milliband got picked on for how he ate sandwich, his voice, many other things. Cameron for his looks. Corbyn for how he dresses. Bloody hell, I could even bring Boris and Gove into a discussion on people getting pull apart for their appearance. On here I think there's been a little ribbing of May for her looks, certainly on how she greeted Royalty, but it's mostly about her ability to do her job, and her lack of empathy, and you feel the need to constantly defend, you've never defended anyone critising abbot for not doing her job well, and yes she does relatively get as much abuse. I don't know how you can claim you're only defending her against personal abuse. You stuck up for her after the Chequers meeting last week when someone questioned the outcome because she'd done so well getting them all to agree (bless her), and within two days she'd lost two high profile cabinet ministers.

[Countryfox]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I’ll try to take the piss more out of how Abbott looks in future @Izzy Muzzett, for balance.

  ...    that’s bloody Vaz with a wig on !!