Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Innovindil]

5 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Tbh if you have no money now of course you won't want to wait 4 months for a bigger sum, you've got to eat today.

So you think 20% of our population are struggling to feed themselves? (in 2013). That survey is a general one, not just on the poorer bunch. 

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, Innovindil said:

So you think 20% of our population are struggling to feed themselves? (in 2013). That survey is a general one, not just on the poorer bunch. 

I thought you said it was a quarter?  In any case I would think that if those stats were presented by demographics a significant portion of the people who answered 200 would be made up of our food bank users and the just about managers, yes.  Being from 2013 doesn't change the fact that up to a certain level of income it makes perfect logical sense to prioritise today's problems.  As someone who's out of work if I were asked today I'd say give me the 200 because it covers me for the next few weeks while I try to sort out a steady income stream, if you'd asked me a few months ago I would have said I'm fine right now, give me the 400 later.  That's the problem with stats like that, there's no room for nuance and some people end up getting the wrong impression ie. thinking that poor people don't care about their future.

[Innovindil]

1 minute ago, Carl the Llama said:

I thought you said it was a quarter?  In any case I would think that if those stats were presented by demographics a significant portion of the people who answered 200 would be made up of our food bank users and the just about managers, yes.  Being from 2013 doesn't change the fact that up to a certain level of income it makes perfect logical sense to prioritise today's problems.  As someone who's out of work if I were asked today I'd say give me the 200 because it covers me for the next few weeks while I try to sort out a steady income stream, if you'd asked me a few months ago I would have said I'm fine right now, give me the 400 later.  That's the problem with stats like that, there's no room for nuance and some people end up getting the wrong impression ie. thinking that poor people don't care about their future.

Nah, 1 in 5 said about the £200 now, the quarter said they'd rather live for today than plan for tomorrow. Not quite sure what the difference is between them though, seems like roughly the same idea. 

 

Fair points though, wonder if I could find the whole report and see if it has an overall breakdown, I'll have a look later and get back to it if I can find anything. 

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

My brother and his missus, both on minimum wage (his missus working part time) and my other brother, a single parent living on benefits, are also doing well. 

 

Are they ordinary people? 

 

I was looking at a study on struggling people the other day, I'll post a couple of snippets from it that I found interesting. As a heads up, this was conducted in 2013, so the figures may be skewed. 

 

A "live for now" culture and poor financial skills were also found to be likely causes.

One in five of those surveyed said they would rather have £200 now than £400 in four months' time, with one quarter of people saying they prefer to live for today rather than plan for tomorrow.

 

The report also revealed that a worrying number of Britons lack financial knowledge. Some 12pc of those questioned believed the Bank of England's base rate, which has been at a historic 0.5pc low for more than four years, was over 10pc.

More than one third of people did not understand the impact that inflation has on their savings and 16pc could not identify the correct balance on a bank statement.

 

So, we've got lower than balls interest rates, I think it costs atm £400 to borrow £5000 over 5 years, you're going to get people in debt pretty easy, sounds like a bargain to have a better today to me. Couple that with people having the financial literacy of a turnip, and unsurprisingly, you'll get people struggling. 

 

What I don't understand is how this live for today **** tomorrow attitude can be blamed on the government. But admittedly, I could be missing something. 

 

Edit, those last 2 paragraphs were supposed to go back to normal font, no idea how to do it. /facepalm

How, are a couple both on minimum wage doing well? I suspect there must be more to it than that. Do they have kids? Tax credits? 

 

Your brother on benefits is doing well?

 

I think I must be the one who's missing something.

[Innovindil]

13 minutes ago, toddybad said:

How, are a couple both on minimum wage doing well? I suspect there must be more to it than that. Do they have kids? Tax credits? 

 

Your brother on benefits is doing well?

 

I think I must be the one who's missing something.

They have 1 kid, not sure what benefits they qualify for mind. Never heard them complain about money and they have a fair bit in the bank, own car, own house etc etc. I'd say that's doing well. 

 

My brother that's on benefits lives in a nice house, one that would push my wages to be able to afford, plays his xbox all day but doesn't have any monetary issues, in the circumstances, I'd say again, that's he's doing well. 

 

But I guess we could have varying definitions of doing well. But considering one pair have very low level skills and the other is a lazy mug, I'd say they're doing alright for themselves. 

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

They have 1 kid, not sure what benefits they qualify for mind. Never heard them complain about money and they have a fair bit in the bank, own car, own house etc etc. I'd say that's doing well. 

 

My brother that's on benefits lives in a nice house, one that would push my wages to be able to afford, plays his xbox all day but doesn't have any monetary issues, in the circumstances, I'd say again, that's he's doing well. 

 

But I guess we could have varying definitions of doing well. But considering one pair have very low level skills and the other is a lazy mug, I'd say they're doing alright for themselves. 

How could they possibly afford a mortgage, childcare etc off one and a half minimum wage jobs? They'll be pulling in a ton of tax credits. I'm sure life is just dandy if that's the case.

 

Living on benefits isn't great and I know very well the amounts involved having previously worked as a benefit fraud investigator. Just a guy living on his own in a house might be able to afford to live but not do much else. That's hardly doing well.

 

I get the impression you're quite young and probably don't fully understand how money and responsibility plays out longer term. I don't want to make myself a martyr here but we've briefly discussed my debt problems before and you couldn't understand how they could arise.

 

Life can throw curveballs that significantly impact on.things like debt and affordability. So, for example, I pay nearly £150 a month for a student loan and £250 a month on child maintenance for a child who lives with me 2.5 days a week (the government designated calculation not properly accounting for the fact 3.5 days is joint childcare). Straight away that's considerably more than any JSA your brother would be receiving. I earn too much to get a council house and need a property big enough for my now 13yo old child to have their own room. Renting privately this costs several hundred pounds a month. My work requires me to have a car and drive around the midlands which costs a significant amount. Etc, etc, etc. None of these costs (not to mention taxes, utilities etc) are me being wasteful, they're just unavoidable costs. I don't have sky tv, I don't live on takeaways, I just have reached a point where I have unavoidable responsibilities and a job decent enough I can't claim benefits.

 

You cut your cloth according to your budget but when wages fall every single year for nearly a decade its very difficult to keep cutting the cloth when costs are going up.

Edited 6 October 2017 by Guest

[Innovindil]

2 hours ago, toddybad said:

How could they possibly afford a mortgage, childcare etc off one and a half minimum wage jobs? They'll be pulling in a ton of tax credits. I'm sure life is just dandy if that's the case.

 

Living on benefits isn't great and I know very well the amounts involved having previously worked as a benefit fraud investigator. Just a guy living on his own in a house might be able to afford to live but not do much else. That's hardly doing well.

 

I get the impression you're quite young and probably don't fully understand how money and responsibility plays out longer term. I don't want to make myself a martyr here but we've briefly discussed my debt problems before and you couldn't understand how they could arise.

 

Life can throw curveballs that significantly impact on.things like debt and affordability. So, for example, I pay nearly £150 a month for a student loan and £250 a month on child maintenance for a child who lives with me 2.5 days a week (the government designated calculation not properly accounting for the fact 3.5 days is joint childcare). Straight away that's considerably more than any JSA your brother would be receiving. I earn too much to get a council house and need a property big enough for my now 13yo old child to have their own room. Renting privately this costs several hundred pounds a month. My work requires me to have a car and drive around the midlands which costs a significant amount. Etc, etc, etc. None of these costs (not to mention taxes, utilities etc) are me being wasteful, they're just unavoidable costs. I don't have sky tv, I don't live on takeaways, I just have reached a point where I have unavoidable responsibilities and a job decent enough I can't claim benefits.

 

You cut your cloth according to your budget but when wages fall every single year for nearly a decade its very difficult to keep cutting the cloth when costs are going up.

I honestly don't know, so I couldn't say. All I know is they are doing alright for themselves. They don't have childcare costs anymore because their son is in school.

 

Again, I'm not saying my other brother is rich and has hoes hanging from each arm, what I am saying is he's not struggling for money, he's not having to go to a food bank or deal on the side to buy Christmas prezzies for his kid. 

 

As for your situation, I've said it before but I'll repeat it, there are exceptional circumstances that make people struggle, what I'm saying is not everyone in trouble has just fell into it. When 1 in 10 people surveyed can't read a bank statement properly, it's safe to say a fair chunk of the people struggling don't help themselves at all. 

 

Yelling "wages are falling!" doesn't educate people on how to use their money wisely. 

[Guest MattP]

I worked with a guy in my student days at Sainsbury's who was a complete case when it came to finances.

 

Always complaining he had nothing but always made extravagant purchases, worked two jobs, he came in one morning flashing his new bank loan, first thing he did was buy some luxury towels for about £150.

 

Bet there are tons of these sorts about, self finance should be taught at school, as important as anything. 

Edited 6 October 2017 by MattP

[Sampson]

4 hours ago, toddybad said:

Fox, wages and living standards have been falling for a decade and personal debt is at record levels. You can't pretend that life for ordinary people is fine. I've said multiple times that you don't have to vote labour, you can seek change via a Tory party that has sought its own answers to the many problems that face us. Denying there's a problem is the biggest issue imho.

Absolutely! And I think most of us want to seek change - by either a reformed Conservative party or a better Labour party.

 

But the problem is right now that the Conservative party is the clear lesser of two evils when the alternative is made up of a front bench of Corbyn, Macdonnell, Abbott and Starmer - who are all clear-as-mud old school Socialist ideologues - not advocates of the Nordic Model or Social Democrats - but clear-as-mud old school hard-Left Socialists (and let's face it, MacDonnell and Abbott at least, are pretty obviously Marxists (and Corbyn is clearly sympathetic towards pure Socialism given the regimes he's supported in the past and in every speech he gives he seems to treat the state and the public sector as infallable and every speech he gives is just "opposing cuts" "opposing cuts" "opposing cuts") - and I'm not even saying that through hyperbole which is the scary thing) who haven't changed their opinions for decades - and while their party tried to moderate them for the purpose of the election we all know that manifestos are only short-term goals and that any moment the Economy starts stalling or the inevitable day to day issues of a nation come up, I find it hard to believe they won't go to their core fundamental beliefs they've held and refused to compramise for decades (which are notoriously unwavering amongst that front bench) of more government intervention, more government spending and more nationalising industry which always leads to short term gain for long tern disaster and it's going to be the young people and voter's children who end up paying for it.

 

Not to mention that having an anti-war pacifist who is not prepared to press the nuclear button who's entire shtick in foreign policy seems to be to celebrate anything anti-American and anti-establishment in charge of foreign policy and defence and trying to deal with Vladamir Putin, Kim Jong Un and Ali Khamenei is a frightening prospect.

 

And so many of us who want to see reform absolutely will be voting for the status-quo because the alternative is abhorrant and it's success is frightening - were Labour offering an alternative that wasn't preaching Utopia and wasn't just massive Government spending, "but don't worry the rich will pay for it" then I would be for it - if they offered many innovative ideas but recognised that the average person and the average tax payer will inevitibly have to end up paying for massive Government spending then we could actually have a good debate as to whether this spending was worth it or not.

 

I think most people want change and reform absolutely but I cannot remember a more frightening group of front-benchers than the current Labour Party and absolutely will not and absolutely can not vote for change when this is the alternative which is being offered and this is only why I hope we keep the status-quo in power.

 

I really hope the Tories can sort themselves out before the next election but I feel like I will have to vote for them regardless which is a sad place to be in and one I don't feel like I've ever been in before as a voter.

Edited 6 October 2017 by Sampson

[Carl the Llama]

3 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

I honestly don't know, so I couldn't say. All I know is they are doing alright for themselves. They don't have childcare costs anymore because their son is in school.

 

Again, I'm not saying my other brother is rich and has hoes hanging from each arm, what I am saying is he's not struggling for money, he's not having to go to a food bank or deal on the side to buy Christmas prezzies for his kid. 

 

As for your situation, I've said it before but I'll repeat it, there are exceptional circumstances that make people struggle, what I'm saying is not everyone in trouble has just fell into it. When 1 in 10 people surveyed can't read a bank statement properly, it's safe to say a fair chunk of the people struggling don't help themselves at all. 

 

Yelling "wages are falling!" doesn't educate people on how to use their money wisely. 

Likewise telling people to use their money wisely isn't always a fair response and can come across very poorly.  That said this:

 

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

I worked with a guy in my student days at Sainsbury's who was a complete case when it came to finances.

 

Always complaining he had nothing but always made extravagant purchases, worked two jobs, he came in one moaning flashing his new bank loan, first thing he did was buy some luxury towels for about £150.

 

Bet there are tons of these sorts about, self finance should be taught at school, as important as anything. 

is still a good point.  One guy I used to live with would complain about not having much money while he ate tubs of Ben & Jerry's as his dinner and stocked his fridge with all the most expensive cuts of meat he could find... which he would then show off about having.  Once he even gave away a full packet of co-op select bacon that he'd bought that day because he only eats M&S or Waitrose meat (don't ask why he bought that bacon in the first place, apparently it was an 'accident' like he forgot he was in the co-op or something, I don't get it either, never have done).  One of my current housemates makes a point of showing off how poor she is towards the end of the month and how she's struggling to afford food even though she eats Dominoes pizza at least one night a week and Maccy Ds on a few others, ready meals for like 90% of the rest.  Meanwhile I'm comfortably feeding myself decent home-made food for a whole week by spending less money than she spends on one of her Dominoes nights and still finding enough food to offer her my leftovers out of pity when she comes moaning about not having money to eat.  Don't think she's ever appreciated the irony there (or indeed when she complains about the recycling bins being full halfway through the fortnight because we generate so many cardboard pizza boxes and plastic microwave meal containers  ).  Neither I would say are bad people, they just have very unrealistic attitudes to spending.

 

The thing that connects the dots in my opinion?  In both of those cases they come from relatively well-off, definitely well-meaning families who were able to support them a bit too much for their own good.  It certainly isn't the result of being from a low-income family with entitlement issues taking money from the state.

[Guest MattP]

@Carl the Llama I wanted to rep that post with a like, laugh an a sad face.

 

Genuinely pissed myself at the Coop bacon bit.

 

Certainly agree with the last part, the ones I've met like it have the bank of Mum and Dad etc

[Guest Kopfkino]

44 minutes ago, MattP said:

I worked with a guy in my student days at Sainsbury's who was a complete case when it came to finances.

 

Always complaining he had nothing but always made extravagant purchases, worked two jobs, he came in one morning flashing his new bank loan, first thing he did was buy some luxury towels for about £150.

 

Bet there are tons of these sorts about, self finance should be taught at school, as important as anything. 

 

I'm not the most frugal man myself but how do you spend 150 quid on towels, especially given it must have been 15 years ago. I thought Egyptian cotton was good and I bought a decent set recently for a third of that (which I thought was a fair amount for towels still).

[lifted*fox]

most people I know who haven't got a clue about money tend to be guys whose parents bought them their first car or didn't make them pay rent, etc. 

 

spoilt and didn't have to learn / understand the value of money.

 

people from low income backgrounds have to learn to manage their money from the word go. 

[The Doctor]

12 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

Blimey! The campaign to depose Theresa is being led by Grant Schapps of all people.

 

That's a bit like facing the prospect of being assassinated by Noddy.

Tbf noddy would be the perfect assassin. Despite those cold dead eyes, no-one would suspect him.

[Guest]

This government are scum.

 

Ministers 'refusing to pay for fire safety measures' after Grenfell

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/oct/06/ministers-refusing-pay-improvements-fire-safety-grenfell?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

[Guest Kopfkino]

23 minutes ago, toddybad said:

This government are scum.

 

Ministers 'refusing to pay for fire safety measures' after Grenfell

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/oct/06/ministers-refusing-pay-improvements-fire-safety-grenfell?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

 

Standard lobbying nonsense.

 

The government said it would work with councils to help with the funding of replacement for anywhere that failed safety tests wrt cladding. It also said it would work with councils on a case by case basis and should approach the government is they have concerns on funding for essential measures. As Sajid Javid told councils, as landlords they are rightfully expected to ensure their buildings meet safety regulations and draw on their resources to do so in exactly the same way my landlord has to.

[katieakita]

Also of course the left and right wings need to accept there is something very wrong with the benefits system where many still get more than they deserve for want of a better word and many also do not get what they deserve. with neither side really looking for middle ground or accepting there are problems. For me though seeing the Tories continued failure to deal with the corruption in my industry and finally find the courage to bring to account those committing offences will take a long time to forgive and being unable to control a business that you supposedly control  and allowing them to breach all the guidelines and laws you impose on others and continually blaming everybody else is pathetic. It is a sad state of affairs when your own party donors pay to take you to court and the damages are rising weekly in millions yet you still lack the courage to tackle it the Tories really have bottled things. 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, KingGTF said:

 

Standard lobbying nonsense.

 

The government said it would work with councils to help with the funding of replacement for anywhere that failed safety tests wrt cladding. It also said it would work with councils on a case by case basis and should approach the government is they have concerns on funding for essential measures. As Sajid Javid told councils, as landlords they are rightfully expected to ensure their buildings meet safety regulations and draw on their resources to do so in exactly the same way my landlord has to.

which is fine.until you look at the state of council funding.

[Lionator]

1 hour ago, katieakita said:

Also of course the left and right wings need to accept there is something very wrong with the benefits system where many still get more than they deserve for want of a better word and many also do not get what they deserve. with neither side really looking for middle ground or accepting there are problems. For me though seeing the Tories continued failure to deal with the corruption in my industry and finally find the courage to bring to account those committing offences will take a long time to forgive and being unable to control a business that you supposedly control  and allowing them to breach all the guidelines and laws you impose on others and continually blaming everybody else is pathetic. It is a sad state of affairs when your own party donors pay to take you to court and the damages are rising weekly in millions yet you still lack the courage to tackle it the Tories really have bottled things. 

Definitely agree with this. There's a lot of people out there who are getting benefits when they don't need them yet a lot who desperately need them but can't get benefits.

[Guest]

Re benefits, having previously worked within the benefits system in a number of roles there are a few things worth mentioning:

 

1- there are obviously feckless people on benefits. The number is relatively tiny though compared to the pooulation of benefits claimants. Out of work benefits accounts for something like 1.3% of total welfare payments.I'll caveat that by saying that state pension payments are included in the welfare figure as it is technically a benefit. 

 

2- the policy intention of not paying benefits for homes larger than are required is broadly sound but bringing this about by attacking claimants by simply reducing payments is ridiculous.

 

3- universal credit has the potential to be a new poll tax for the government if they can't sort it out. Again, the policy intention is broadly sound but the method of applying it is ridiculous with 6 weeks plus between application and payment.how are people supposed to survive for 6 weeks with no money?

 

4- benefits are viewed overwhelmingly negatively. Rather like with the EU, discussion of benefits is generally negative and driven by daily mail type publications.benefits are there as a safety net for any of us who might experience difficulties in our lives. Like a type of instrance policy. When a government attacks benefits and reduce the help they offer they are effectively attacking our own insurance policies.

 

5- I have no idea why child benefit exists in the modern world.It shouldn't.it certainly should be means tested at the very least.the other benefits take children into account so I'm not sure why anybody with a child receives a flat rate payment.

 

6- non contributory benefits (jsa after the first six months and income support) pay enough to live. That's all. Nobody is getting rich off of income support. Tax credits is where the system pays out the big bucks. I've seen somebody receive £19k a year in tax credits in about 2008/9.

Edited 7 October 2017 by Guest

[Webbo]

 

Labour ahead amongst middle class voters, conservative ahead with the working class.

 

Up the workers!

[bovril]

8 minutes ago, Webbo said:

 

Labour ahead amongst middle class voters, conservative ahead with the working class.

 

Up the workers!

To be fair the working class watch X Factor and drink instant coffee so I wouldn't trust their judgement. 

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

 

Labour ahead amongst middle class voters, conservative ahead with the working class.

 

Up the workers!

If that rises much further, they’ll start questioning their legitimacy to vote, thick people should be able too vote. Just like the brexit vote.

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, bovril said:

To be fair the working class watch X Factor and drink instant coffee so I wouldn't trust their judgement. 

That’s represented by the 41% 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Webbo said:

 

Labour ahead amongst middle class voters, conservative ahead with the working class.

 

Up the workers!

Bizarre the way the world works isn't it?

 

When the sun spends the whole time preaching tory hymns its unavoidable these days.

Edited 7 October 2017 by Guest